Hey Taipanfc,
It really doesn`t matter which is faster. Once you`ve sailed solo with the kite up, you look at downwind differently. you want to rush out & buy a blue wetsuit, and wear red underwear on the outside.

Cheers
Steve

Having said all this I must underline the importance of having a trully modern cut spinnaker.

The high aspected kinds with a flat cut. These spinnakers are build for speed and they deliver. Up till a few years ago some sailmakers made the spinnaker to full for a catamaran and the boats wouldn't reach topspeed while using them. The kite would collapse as a result of the apparent wind rotating so far forward. This could only be solved by pointing lower. Thus the VMG was not to bad but the speed sensation was less than what you get with the high aspected and flat spis. Goodall Yacht sail used to produce the older cut spis for quite a time. But Pretty much since beginning 2003 they are producing the newer cut. I have sailed with both and the difference is striking. Also the newer cut spi have alot lee helm than before. In the case of my boat and Geerts we have no lee helm with the new spis.

While it is true that development (or rather refinement) continues in the design of spi it is also true that the largest part of the developement curve has been covered by now. So I don't really think that the need to buy new spis after a short timespan is a realistic one anymore. Pretty much any modern spi of today will be competitive where the smaller developments of today will only make a significant difference when summed up over several years. This is simply not a problem as any competitive sailor wants or needs to buy a new set of sails at least every 2 years anyways. This was never any different in the time before the spi as well. Often the old spi is used during practice untill it is destroyed where the new spi is only used during races and practice races. It is not unusual to use a spi for 4 to 5 years, when a little care is taken.

Personally I think the best sailing with the spi is done at 10-12 knots. Here the speed increase with the spi is the biggest and it really feels like you are going downhill on some greased ski's. In the past the "AHAAAH" feeling on the downwind was only encountered afater 15 knots. Now it is experienced much earlier. Only time the spi doesn't really help is when wind are below 4 knots. Here the spi doesn't fill properly and it feels like the non-spi boats keep up. Some advantage is kept to the high wind part of the spectrum, often make the boat more docile as well.

That is why I don't want to sail without a spinnaker.

It adds more meat to the experience, it makes racing more fair by making skill and handling more important then before, it feels good when sailed well and therefor fast.

Wouter

What is the strongest windspeed you think it feasible to sail with spin?

Mark.

Hi Steve,
should have known you would pick me up on the mossies. I thought about it whilst making the post but didn't want to complicate things. I believe the competitivness of the one up mossie against two up, is because of the mossie being underpowered for two up. Which slows the two ups down not allowing them to use their weight advantage. Unless Of course it's 20 kts. plus. The Australian champions in both one and two up are very close to the same speed up to 20 kts.

But you are correct in saying the one ups have had the upper hand in Victoria in recent years partly due to weight of numbers but hopefully this will change soon.

By the way I am not surprised you prefer two up at 67kg. I am 90 kg., could explain why I hope to handle full F16 one up rig hey.

Regards Gary.

Hi all,
couldn't possibly keep my nose out of this discussion. Re how it feels under spinnaker,wildthing, maximum windspeed etc.

How it feels as in being dragged along by the kite or feeling fast is exactly the point. You have to dedicate yourself to the spinnaker, anybody can put one up and get dragged along but to get the speed takes feel which only comes with time. The feel of getting the most out of the boat under a well cut spinnaker is hard to describe. I equate it best back to the feel of when I sailed slalom sailboards you follow the apparent wind and feel totaly at one with the sail.
The difference in speed is enormous just ask the many larger cats who only used their kites occasionaly that I passed on my Mossie with spin last season.

As far as wildthing is concerned we had started doing it on Mossies before we fitted the spinnaker it was good training for sailing with spin., I think the kite just makes it easier no sitting to leeward in the spray.

As for maximum windspeed from what I have experienced if you can still sail you can put the kite up but again you have to work up to it. So far I have seen them up in 25 to 30 kts.

Regards Gary.

>>What is the strongest windspeed you think it feasible to sail with spin?


You won't believe it but I think the spi can be sailed with control all the way up to where you would sail without one.
I'm talking doublehanding here, singlehanding tops off earlier simple because the hoist and drop are limiting you. Actually, and this may sound strange, but some 3 years now all the spinnaker boats (started with F18's) RATHER sail WITH a spinnaker in a blow than without. Mostly because the pitchpole is not as dominant with a spinnaker as when sailing without. Pretty much you get blown over sideways much sooner than you pitchpole, this means that you are steering the boat fully on keeping the luff hull just skimming the water. This balance point is encountered much sooner than any dive threshold. Ergo you feel more in control of the boat. Capsizes are of course easily handled by steering and working the traveller. Dive on the other hand are most "Hang on for dear life and hope she won't go over". From the crews prespective you are not constantly pinning yourself against the hull to withstand the dive decelleration that may hit at any time.

Trully I think exactly the same on the F16 under spi. I've sailed two distances race with it in 20-23 knots of wind, at one time some 10 miles out of shore among serious swell and chop, and was comfortably spinnakering for long periods. She feels more docile even though everything happens faster than on a non-spi boat.

recent past round texel races show all spi boat pulling spi in any condition. Often this race is held at winds between 16 - 25 knots.

One thing, to pull and retrieve the kite at 20 knots wind for the first time is somewhat of a personal victory. Not that it is hard but it is like lighting/killing the overdimensioned afterburners and that creates some butterflies in your belly. With the wind howling at your ears your first instinct is not to just double the amount of sailarea; especially not when it is unbattened and flapping violantly. When you are about to retrieve it than the butterflies come from being out there to keep the boat horizontal and having to come in and let the spi flap violantly again. After you became comfortable with the spi in 8-15 knots and have done the first few hoists in 15-24 knots you quickly become comfortable with it and in hindsight it will all seem a big fuss over nothing. And hey guys like me used to do this stuff by hand on the far lee side of the boat. With todays snuffers the butterfly effect is much less than in the first days.

One important trick is, and that is why you need to get experienced at hoist and drops in 8-15 knots first, to understand that speed is everything. Quick, but fully controlled, hoists and drops prevent things from going wrong. Slow hoists and drops tend to hang on stuff. Also, always pull in the retrieval line, pull it tight, before uncleating the halyard, Then with 2 to 3 quick pulls get a least 60 % of the spi in the bag. The rest will than follow nicely.

A second trick is to tie bungee cords betweent the tips of the spreaders and the side stays. This prevents the spi from being blown between these two and hang up on the spreader arms. However this seems to be less important now with the modern high aspected spinnakers and the snuffers.

Wouter

"Also the newer cut spi have alot lee helm than before."

Should read ;

"Also the newer cut spi have alot LESS lee helm than before."

Although the leehelm was not huge with the older spis. But the newer ones are almost perfectly belanced.

Wouter

I totally agree with gary here.

Actually the being dragged along is a way in which crews overhere depower their kites. Today, you won't see any serious F18 crew flog there kites on the downwind in gusty conditions. It does involve a decent amount of anticipation but mainly what they do right before or when a gust hits is to pull the spi sheet tight and bear-off simulataniously. Once the gust has passed the skipper heads up slow again while the crew slacks of the sheet. This is serious teamwork but when you get it right it really does work well. You keep you speed and you can keep your boat perfecty flat.

The theory behind it is that you flatten the spi once you pull the spi sheet tight and that this causes the spi to stall. This collapses these lift produced by the spi while keeping the aerodynamic drag still less than when you flog the kite. It is common knowlegde that nothing is as aerodynamically draggy as a vibrating or even flapping cloth. This also means that there is still pressure on the spi to help the boat to bear off. In addition, the bearing off itself will make the spi stall even more because you again increase the angle of attack. This setup also allows you to quickly reattach the flow once the gust has passed. Simply letting the sheet out will reattach the flow and power up the boat. During the heading up part you slightly pull it back in to keep the optimal flow as the angle of attack is decreased.

Now the first time you do this your heart will be in your throat. It is seriously against your instincts to pull harder on a sheet during a gust when the boat starts to heel. But you and you skipper work together than it does really work well and keeps you at full speed.

Actually the old addagio is very much correct. If you hear the spi ratchet stop clicking for more than 5 seconds than it is time to wake up your crew. If your skipper is not continiously snaking the boat through S-curves in a gently manner than it is time to wake up your skipper.

Work, work, work that spi. And all the skipper does is steer to the needs of the kite, keeping the boat flat, while calling out approaching gusts. Actually the crew only looks at the luff of the spi while the skipper looks past the spi ahead for gusts and boats and steers completely on feel and anticipated gusts.

Maybe you can tell from my enthousiasm but when you get this down to being an oiled machine the kick you get is addictive. Than you are really sailing that boat togeher and sailing it really fast. Much different from the lazy deep downwinders where the crew can look at the clouds while holding the jib sheet out on the leeward hull.

Wouter

Hey guys, great spi discussion. Unfortunately my current cat (H17) doesn't have one but I am looking forward to an F16 with spi in the future. Only spi experience I currently have is limited and on a dinghy. So, I've got a question about managing the spi on cats. I understand normal operating procedure is to keep the main and traveller fairly sheeted while continuously steering the boat and trimming the spi unless it's necessary to ease the traveller (in gusts or significantly increased average windspeed). My question is that on my H17, once the main is sheeted to any degree it's not possible to ease the traveller (or the outhaul for that matter) without first easing the mainsheet. It's a real pain and not a great idea if a spi were flying. I'm not sure if it's something specific to my boat, all H17's, or all cats. I have seen it happen on H16's as well. I've tried McLube to no avail and the traveller bearings seem ok when unloaded. It could have something to due with the fact that the rear beam on the H17 is curved (convex upward) so when the traveller moves out it's like sheeting the main even further. Is this behavior something F16 and other cat sailors experience or is just me and my H17? I couldn't imagine trying to dynamically change traveller trim on this boat while singlehanding a spi!

Thanks for the input,

Jerry

Hi Jerry,
can only guess it is your boat or Hobie 17. All cats I have sailed traveller moves happily under load. Although my preference one up is to ease main to twist head of sail rather than dropping traveller and I don't ease main that often as it is cleated hands are busy on spin. sheet and rudder.
Regards Gary.

>>Hi all. I asked this question on the F16 forum but only got one reply.

I remember that posting. I thought at the time that I shouldn't forget about replying to it. Then that whole spitfire-aruba thread boomed and we went from one post to many others.

I short I'm sorry to say that in my experience you can forget about moving the traveller car under sheetload on pretty much all older Hobie designs. Meaning h14, H16, H17 and TheMightyHobie18. Maybe on some lakes it is better but overhere on the sandy beach with beach side parking. The damn things were always jammed. Come to think of it. The harken recirculating ball traveller seem to have problems as well. The stuff that works are the Prindle wheeled cars and the I-track traveller rails with stainless wheeled cars. Harken RC will work after you spend a few minutes cleaning the cars out. Hobie system were always "don't even try". Of course the newer Hobies likes Tigers, Foxes and FX-ones have the more modern setups and these RC systems do work with a little care.

Personally I would try to figure out a different methode of sailing with a spi on the H17 than was discussed on the F16 forum.

Sorry for not responding sooner.

And ohh, that curved beam is not helping you either. On F16's, like Gary said, the systems do allow moving the traveller under load in some setups even very well. I switched to the I-track system and I can sheet on hard and still trim my maintraveller with just 1:2 and one hand, easily even. I never clean the track or care out. It doesn't need that, unlike the RC systems. So yes it can easily be done if you have the right system. If not than you'll just have to find some other way.

Wouter

Thanks, Wouter.

With the I track system can you ease it as well as sheet it under high mainsheet load? I'm assuming you can do this on Taipan F16's and Blade F16's?

Jerry

>With the I track system can you ease it as well as sheet it under high mainsheet load? I'm assuming you can do this on Taipan F16's and Blade F16's?


I can ! And the force on it is alot lower than I expected it to be. Before I sailed the boat I was thinking about using a 3:1 system on the traveller but after sailing it I haven't given it second thoughts. 2:1 is enough. I do have the centred cleat on the beam instead of the cleat on the car itself as alot of boats seem to be having nowadays. The reduces the force on the line and cleat when the traveller line is cleated, it also pulls the car less sideways and thus results in less friction. Actually I believe that the centre cleat system is the only setup that should be used with wheeled cars on the I-track.

I currently use the Ronstan 19 mm I track with a 6-wheel car. And I'm loving it. It was bloody cost effective and works better than all other systems I ever used with only the possible exception of the X-rail of RWO but don't sell this anymore.

Go to http://www.ronstan.com/catalogue/p072,supp003.pdf

and look for RC61912 (The 6 wheeled car with ballbarings) when I bought it it was called the RF331 (for old catalogies)

Seriously, I need to put quite a bit of tension on my mainsail leech while sailing with a spi to prevent the top from bending off to much. And under spi I just hold the traveller line in my hand and work the gusts with it. I can do that for a long time without getting tired. The ronstan swivel cleat RF67 works excellent as well.

As a matter of fact I use a curved 19 mm I-beam with the smaller 4 wheeled car RC61945 (old code RF334) for my selftacker. AHPC made a very nice setup of it and it weights less than the Nacra F18 fibreclass system and I suspect it weights less as the Tigers as well. It is non permanently fixed and therefor can be taken off leaving only 4 small feet on the mainbeam. But what I wanted to say was that it works absolutely perfect as well. It hasn't ever jammed or hung up on me ever yet.

Maybe you can tell but I'm sold on these parts. When the boat was build I really want the X-rails to go on it and even source these but do to uncooperating chandlers I had to compromise for the I-beam but again these have proved more than adequate and I have absolutely no regrets for not having the X-rails.

I have no idea what is featured on the Blades. I do know that the Taipan F16's are delivered with these I-beams. Although they can also be delivered with the newer Recirculating Ball (RCB) systems on request. The standard Taipan 4.9's have the RCB systems. They work well enough but you just have to take care of them and the rail. A little grease and sand clogs them up and small dents in the rail quite quickly hinder smooth movement due to the small balls. I-beam has neither of these issues. And I've used all of them extensively now.

Wouter

Hi Jerry,

My stock Taipan 4.9 traveller moves quite freely under full load, ie under mainsheet tension with or without the spinnaker up. And thank goodness it does.

Thanks, Wouter (and Eric). Great input!
So does your outhaul also trim/ease easily under mainsheet load?
Sorry to say mine doesn't

Jerry

>>So does your outhaul also trim/ease easily under mainsheet load?

Well mine doesn't yet as I'm still using a quick fix there. I was in a hurry to get the boat sorted and since then haven't taken the time to build the system that I want. Actually it is a piece of cake but I haven't got round to it. It is more or less the same as the Taipan system but than 4:1 and using less blocks. The Taipan system works really well and again smoothly. No rail or car are used here. Only a loop that goes around the boom and transmits the load directly from the mainsheet to the mainsail. Only drawback is that while broad reaching under main sail alone the foot of the mainsail is pulled tight because the traveller is far out. However when sailing with a spinnaker the maintraveller is much further in and so this drawback is not present anymore. For spi sailing this system is the best, the cheapest and does all you want.

Wouter

Thanks Wouter. I've seen that system on more modern boats and it does look like it should work well plus it lets you use a thinner and lighter boom. You're right, it's the car in the boom on my H17 which is binding under load and that would't happen with the other system. The only disadvantage that I can think of with the system you describe is that it doesn't allow you to quickly/easily disconnect the mainsheet clew from the boom using a quick pin which can be useful on the beach.

Jerry

Why can't you have the quick release shackle/pin between the mainsail eye and the loop in my system ?

Wouter

If your boat has an eye/grommet in the clew of the mainsail you certainly could. However, the boats that I've seen that have implemented similar systems such as Tiger/FX1 and I think some A-cats use a webbing loop which is permanently sewn to the clew. You'd have to have a sailmaker modify the sail (or not use the sewn in loop) in that case.

Jerry

Why not use two webbing loops attached by a small piece of rope?

Have the loop from the mains'l going around the boom and have the outhaul attached to the end of the sail. Then have another loop behind the first one that the Mainsheet is attached to. Have the two loops tied together by a 3mm piece of spectra, for instance, about 10-15cm long.

When the outhaul is tight for upwind, the mainsail loop holds out the mainsheet loop. When the outhaul is loose and the boom is wide, the mainsail loop can move along the boom to wherever it likes and the mainsheet loop will be further out on the boom and not pulling it out as much.

Personally I don't find it too much of a problem. When running downwind in very light weather where the mainsheet pulls the foot flat(ish) when the outhaul is loose, you're most likely moving at quite high apparent wind speed at deck level anyway and would want a flatter shape. Once the breeze fills in a little, then the sail has some force in it to pull the foot into a curve anyway so its not too much of a problem.
I think getting the amount of twist in the mainsail and especially the jib in very light weather is much more important than the outhaul trim.