And I must say the new sequences are not a major improvement. For example, this weekend at the NAMSA NAs/Tradewinds we will probably have about 6 starts.., and that is after combining like classes.
With the new starting format, it would take 35 minutes to get the races off.
By using the old method (which we are going to do, as usual) with 3 minute sequences, we will get the entire group off in 18 minutes.., almost half the time.

There are some merits to the new system, i.e., if your class is all finished and now are awaiting others to finish, the RC can get you off and running.
But, that is only if the wind has not switched, there are no boats about to finish during the sequence, etc., etc.

Both have their merits.
Rick

Let me try yet again with this question. I keep trying to find ways to eliminate the ifs, ands and buts, and get to the basic preference, all things being equal.

Let's say you have a spinnaker-rigged boat, and there is a fleet of 10 of the very same boats. There is also a fleet of 10 open-class boats, also spinnaker-rigged but not identical boats. ALL of the sailors in both of these fleets are of equal sailing ability. You have a choice of racing in the one-design fleet or the open fleet, and the two fleets will be starting separately.

Which fleet will most people choose -- one-design or open-class?

I don't know how to get any more specific.

Mary,
I think you may have finally pinned them down. I enjoyed reading all the non-responses to your revised question. I certainly understood it as did most people. My guess is that most didn't want to state the obvious; its more fun to race boat for boat than against a time factor (handicap). I'm for one design as you presented it.

CRAC does what was mentioned in an earlier post; we sail handicap, but if you can get 5 boats to show up, you can be scored BOTH as one design and handicap. That sometimes brings up a question in the middle of a race; do I sail defensively to beat the other guy on the one-design, or keep going for the overall? Not a problem, just an added (an interesting) choice to make on the water.

David
H20

As you put it, I prefer one-design. No measurements, no handicap, just get out and race. Our club has 6 Stiletto 27's we just race head up first over wins. We'll discuss sails beforehand to see what we'll run and go with that. Keeps it simple.

Clayton
S27

what it all boils down to if we keep this this post and response up is the eventual core question


"Would you rather live in a perfect world than the real world ?"

Now I'm sure everybody will say yes to that relative undetailed question. (is your perfect world the same as mine ?)However I don't think anyone in the history of mankind has ever had this particular choice. So what is the point in answering such a question ?

With respect to your question :




I think I will choose the open fleet if that is were all my friends are sailing and is counted in my championship. At my club we have a club chmapionship and open class races away from the club count when more than 5 club members race there. So lets take Round Texel 2005 I will sail against the 10 or clubmembers there rather than 10 boats sailed by people I don not know or am not involved with in some form of championship. And yes this in not a mind example but a real situation I'm personally in for 2005.

You see Mary, The question is never that simple.

Maybe you should try this approach.

"Do you prefer to sail in any OD fleet over sailing in the open class when participating in the latter involves being slowly tortured to death by angry OD racers without any chance of escape ?"

Maybe you then get the 100 % score you are looking for.

Cos right now you are forcing people to at last once choose OD racing over open class racing. Why seek this ? What does it mean once you have exlcuded enough if's and but's so that there is no alternative answer possible then "I prefer OD in this case ?


Wouter

Wouter,

My mom always said if you don't have anything nice to say... well, just don't say it.

Clayton

Gosh, Wouter, I designed that question specifically for you.

Your not "having a go at Wouter" are you MARY???
You must always remember that he has a fairly large "barrow to push" with his total involvement with the F16's and as such his overall general view of sailing may (I only said MAY Wouter, so please don't "Flame" me for my personal opinion) be some what "colored", and Mary in regards to your question(s) that form the crux of this thread, I have found it difficult to actually comprehend the significance of the question. I can only put this down to the apparent large differences that exist between the way that "club" racing is conducted in Australia and the USA. From the last few posts here it would seem that there a some major differences, not only in the organization between Australia and the US, but also there appears to be a big difference in who actually has the authority to determine how the "running of events” is conducted. I could be wrong in that assumption, but that is how I see it at this juncture.
Darryl J Barrett

You are absolutely right and no I don't mind at all that you say that actually. I have also a large investment in open class racing with my NMBR project (That I must add is now OUR project as I'm getting significant help from others)

But there is nothing secret or fony about it.

Because Why did I choose F16 our F18 ? Arguably F18 is the only class left in the Netherlands that has any claim at the throne ? F20 come second and than way in the back on a shared 3rd spot A-cat, H16, Dart 18 and Tornado.

So I could have chosen a large competitive OD alike fleet with good reason but I didn't. So something in my enjoyment of sailing and my situation steers me away from these classes.

Now you can remove all if's and buts from any question but the core why I decided against all these classes will remain and I will decide open class with my F16 over all else.

For me , and I say for ME !, it is the flexibility of the design (solo and doublehanded) with spinnaker, a truly modern rig (wingmast) and being allowed to tinker with the boat. These 4 things exclude ALL available OD classes and also the F18 and F20. The fact that F16 rubs shoulders with F18 in open class (were 80 % of our Dutch racing is done) was a big part of the decision as well.

This is no secret and I will not hide it. So I may actually be one of the sailors that has placed personal enjoyment over the thrills of strict OD racing. Because I know that I never will be truly competitive anyway. Too old, started to late in life and live in an area where racing level is Darn high. So who am I kidding with getting involved in OD sailing ? A few youngsters of 23 who have sailed cats since they were 12 will beat me always.

On top of that I don't have a regular crew anymore. People in my age group start families and move on to other priorities. Without a dedicated crew there isn't much fun in strict OD racing. Might as well enjoy tinkering and sailing a modern design, a design on the edge and enjoy that. That and hang out with friend that over time have bought other designs and race recreationally just like me. Beat one of them in an open class as he beat me last time, just to return the favour and claim back bragging rights on the beach. This year the whole club will be attacking our club champion as they have been champions for 3 years in a row now. This is now a sacret mission of all of us. Now I have hte boat for it but no I need to find and train up a bloody crew or do it singlehandedly (A bit much with a spi again a team that got that F20 with spi down from start to finish)


Wouter

Well mary, shall I cross over first then ? (I'm out of time you see)

In basis you have got a point and you always had. I enjoy OD racing as much as other types of racing, but don't ask me to prefer one of the other as I really don't know what to choose. It is like getting up in the morning and deciding what to wear. Today it is white tomorrow it is black. There never is one right shirt for all days and it is the same with cat racing. I enjoy OD for what it is and I enjoy Open class racing for what IT is. Both have advantages and drawback and it often comes down to the day or the particular personal situation which form suits a person best. And often that person will switch over a few time during his or her life. I may haow did you go on sailing waves ? When you started there wasn't a fleet of 10 boats yet ! And yet for some reason you decided that the wave was attractive to you, to be prefered by you over say H16 or A-cat. Some try to think away that element that makes us all individuals in favour of forcing us in the perfect world of another human being.

So end with the statement (not a question anymore)

"If my perfect world then same as yours ?"

"Or can/should I demand everybody sails F16's because THAT would suit me best ?"

"Or should we just have multiple perfect worlds life side by side ?"


Wouter

Hi Darryl

Two examples that will illustrate the issue. TBCS ran their hangover regatta Jan 1/ 05 . 26 or so boats. 10 boats with Spins in the same start and run the same course. They score 2 fleets of 5 spin boats??? They do not calculate overall 1 through 10 on handicap.

This weekend at the Upcoming Tradewinds regatta. Rick White announced he will have 6 starts for 50 boats??? Probably: two for the spin boats.
With 10 F18's and 10 20's and the one F16 will be tossed in with the a different fleet.

To me this is one start and race called the spin class scored on handicap and two one design divisions(F18's and I20's). A 21 boat race seems a lot more interesting to me then a 10 boat one design start....
One result is certainly that the F16 doesn't have much incentive to travel any great distance to race the other non spin boats.

What would happen down under?

Take Care
Mark

Either way there's not much incentive for the F16 to come down if they're concerned about racing in a big fleet. What do they have to look forward too when they're tossed in as the single oddball within two fiercely contested one design fleets? If it were me I would rather be in the group that has accepted the fact that they are racing in open. While I still conceed that scoring both one design and open together is interesting, I'm not interested in racing within it. Call me a purist (or something worse ).

OK, enough beating around the bush.

Of course we all enjoy sailing and we don't have to race to enjoy it.
Most of us don't expect to win or even trophy, but we show up and race.
This is not about enjoying whatever sailing our situation allows to participate in.
It is about competitive racing.

As in any competition, the goal is to win.
Anyone who says they don't want to win is LYING.
Most of us want an HONORABLE victory.
That means competing under FAIR conditions and winning through our skill and intelligence.
The sport of organized competitive sailing, ISAF RRS, emphasizes this in Rule 2, FAIR SAILING.

The various handicap systems have tried to create "FAIR SAILING" amongst all boats.
The concept itself is faulty and ALL of the systems have plenty of problems.
Even with everyone "playing fair", different boat designs have advantages and/or disadvantages under different conditions.
Some boats handle rough water better, some like light air.

The Formula system tries to assure "FAIR SAILING" in an even-up situation, while allowing experimentation.
The A Class and F18 have shown that even with boats that are identical, within the Texel measurements, advantages exist.

The best way to prove your sailing skill and have an honorable victory, is single manufacturer one-design.
And, as we previously discussed, the comaraderie is great.
None of that "you need to buy a boat like mine" salesmanship.

Formula racing is the next best.

Open Class, with small sloops against bigger spi boats, is barely better than nothing.
At least the big boats get back to shore quicker and have plenty of hot water and cold beer.

Winning on an underrated boat is B.S.
Winning on a boat because of ideal conditions for that particular boat is B.S.
Winning because the conditions, wind & water, changed during the race and benefitted a boat is B.S.
Chasing faster boats around for a "moral victory" is B.S.
To prefer an Open fleet over an equal size One-Design Class Fleet is B.S.

I believe that Mary was asking the question for an ideal situation.
To say that "The real world is different", is not the point.
This is about how we wish it was.

So I pose the question:
Do you want an opportunity for an honorable victory or do you prefer B.S.?

Mark,
Look more closely at the TBCS Hangover results. What you will see is 39 boats of 22 different designs, in four "classes" with 3 starts. The “spin fleet” was 11 boats…I20, F18, and a Tornado. They seemed happy when the 5th boat of each fleet registered late to allow separate 18 and 20 foot classes. The Portsmouth results calculated as a single spin fleet are given below.

What you may not have noticed is that there were 3 other spin boats in Open classes (a Taipan 4.9 sloop 2-up, a Mystere 5.0 solo, and a Mystere 4.9 2-up). Dunedin has seen a lot of older boats being fitted with spinnakers. What do you do now with spin boats of DPN 68-78? We have a love/hate relationship with Portsmouth. Thank God for Sailwave software.

1 NI20 Casey, John Novak, Jim 59.2 4:48:17
2 HF18 Lindsay, Jennifer Gray, Kelly 62.5 4:50:34
3 NF18 Ingram, David Ingram, Kathy 62.5 4:52:14
4 Torn Dubuc, Alain L'Abbe, Eve-Marie 59.0 4:53:27
5 NI20 Daniel, Robbie Herendeen, Mark 59.2 4:53:28
6 HF18 Korz, Sue Thomas, Greg 62.5 4:58:08
7 NI20 Roth, Jay Roth, Mike 59.2 5:13:05
8 NI20 Leobold, Tom Cheever, Richard 59.2 5:18:31
9 HF18 Jason, Olli Jason, Kelly 62.5 5:43:58
10 HF18 Keysor, Clark Pastoor, Tina 62.5 5:50:43
11 NI20 Smith, Greg single handed 59.2 6:43:55

At most clubs here they race every Saturday afternoon and for the cats (all cats) they would generally have three starts, one for cats greater than 16' up to 18' in length, one for 18' and over in length and one for cats less than 16' long.
The bigger cats start first, the 16' to less than 18' start second and the less than 16' start third, this tends to keep the different starts separate around the course due to the difference in relative boat speed. As it is regular club racing every sailor has his own club handicap which is corrected after every race that he sails. If any particular class require that they hold their class "state heats" at the club in conjunction with the normal club racing they may be accorded their own start (if their numbers warrant it) for which they are recorded "across the line"
We also have regular regattas sailed at different clubs throughout the entire year, generally on a Sunday (and public holidays and Wednesday night twilight sailing). At these regattas the format is very similar with the exception of the "club handicapping". There are usually the same three break-ups of the different sized cats starting similarly with the fastest boats starting first. but the results are generally calculated using the individual established class yardsticks to ascertain the overall placing’s. Once again there are at times at regattas where a class require that they sail their state championship heat during that regatta, for which they may be afforded their own start (once again number dependant)
Each of these three "divisions" race only within their division for placing honours, and at times, to ensure that no division should be "back on the beach "ages" before the slowest division, the three divisions will all sail the same course but the fastest cat division will sail three or four more "legs" than the slowest while the intermediate (on speed) cats may sail two or three extra legs. This is done to ensure that there is the greatest likelihood that all sailors will be out of the showers and Belly up to the bar" together - good for the camaraderie of the sailors and good for the beer money" for the club. There is the variation to this three division break-up for certain "specific" regattas where the break-ups may be something like -all boats with a yardstick 82 and less form the fastest division, boats with a yardstick between 83 and 89 form division two, and all boats with a yardstick 90 and over form division three
The yacht clubs will listen to the class representatives concerning racing formats, but the final way in which all races and regattas are organised and run are, almost totally in the hands of the clubs and this organization is something which all the classes and individual sailors seem to find more than satisfactory, safe, organised and fun.
After all, here, the clubs supply the launching sites, tractors to put boats on and off the beach, full club facilities, with showers, change rooms, dining rooms, and full bar service, there are experienced club “rescue boats on the water at each and every sailing event, there is an experienced bridge crew in the club tower watching over the entire race course at all times, and there is radio contact between the bridge crew and the rescue boats. With all that sort of investment into “the sport” it is only fair that the clubs have the final say as to how any event will be run. And it works.

Well, I was not trying to make any "point." And I have no personal interest in whether people prefer to sail one-design, or formula, or on handicap.

I was simply curious as to whether people sail in open class by necessity or by choice.

When I posed the question, I was not certain what the responses would be, because if people genuinely wanted to race boat-for-boat, I think we would see more efforts to develop and grow one-design and formula classes. (I realize that is easier said than done.)

In fact, of the catamarans that race in open class, few have active class associations, and even fewer have owner-controlled class associations. To me, that is very strange and shows lack of interest in structure, organization, and growth of the class -- and probably also indicates lack of a feeling of loyalty and commitment to any particular class of boat.

"I was simply curious as to whether people sail in open class by necessity or by choice."
Well, Mary, why didn`t you just say so !!
That`s easy, if you have enough boats to sail OD, or SMOD, then that`s great. If guys are doing more open-class sailing in the US than class racing, it means that the classes are dying out and not being actively supported. I think what you can establish from the 95 posts above is that it`s different everywhere, not only between countries, but regional, and from one yacht club to another, even if they`re on the same pond.

This from David Parker : "Look more closely at the TBCS Hangover results. What you will see is 39 boats of 22 different designs, in four "classes" with 3 starts."

Now if all these sailors "preferred" strict OD sailing to open class, there would be 39/22 = 1.77 boats per OD class. Not much competition, you`d have to concede. So it is out of necessity that we form groups of similar boats, whether it is by size or configuration, together. Having a rating system that evens things out on a theoretical basis helps keep things a little closer.

Regionally, in Cape Town, we have a fleet of approx. 20-25 H16`s at one club, a fleet of 15-20 Mosquito`s at another, and a few Dart 18`s, at the same club as the Mosquito`s. While we race OD most of the time, we welcome the 3 or 4 Darts to sail with the Mozzies, one start, and have positions based on Open class handicap, and by class, even if the Darts don`t make a class by the official definition of the term (this is, after all, club racing, not world champs.) Hell, we even have a 505 or 2 that sail with us, and have no idea on how to handicap them !

So it would appear that we "prefer" OD racing. Not necessarily true. It`s just what we get due to our circumstances. I personally prefer it when we have open class regattas and the 20 Mosquito`s, 25 H16`s, 4 Darts, and 4 or 5 Hobie Tigers come out to play. Results are split out by class and overall handicap positions are calculated.
The social scene is so much better when you have 100 or so sailors in the pub, and long arguments ensue, in the name of fun, as to who has the "better" boat

Sometimes you CAN have your cake and eat it.

Cheers
Steve

Hi Darryl,

We sail a simular fromat but start the other way round.

1st less than 16 foot
2nd 16 to > 18 foot
3rd 18 plus. including 16 foot + spinnaker boats.

We mainly race back to back short course races of about 45 min each. Starting the slower boats of first gives them a start on the faster boat. That way we get the fleet to finish closer together and can get the next race on the way sooner. Another thing it does is eliminate the likleyhood of the fast boats (spinnaker) coming down to the bottom gate near the start as another fleet is starting. Very scary in big breeze going head to head with boats just after a start. Not many gaps

At the larger mixed fleet regatta such as Forster Wild Cat we had a start F-18s (Their National title), followed buy H16 and smaller boats and last.... The rest of the fleet. On our start we had 70+ boats. This is what racing is all about.

The first race off the regatta we pulled a port start on a fairly neutral start and only just cut in front of the A's and other T's. Right was favouring. The second race we lined up again on port and made it quiet obvious. Ashby and Brewin shot down to the pin to teach us a lesson. We ducked them and were forced to slice through the middle of the fleet. Interesting to say the least . Anyway right payed off again and was 2nd to the top.

All this was done at the pin end where Australian Sailing were photographing . Twice was enough and we started the rest of the regatta on starboard.

Mary asks whether all things being equal, if people would rather race one design or Open. As I understand it, open meaning racing on corrected time under Portsmouth, Texel, etc. For myself one design is great in concept. The only problem is there are not any one design multihull classes in the US that I find fun to sail. I am not willing to sail an overweight, poorly built woofer just for the holy grail of One Design. If for instance the Taipan 5.7 Spi had sold in any numbers in the US, I would have happily raced it one design. Nobody bought them because we are all mostly cheap bastards. On the other hand, I don’t like racing on corrected time although I will do it for the Alter Cup qualifiers or for distance racing because there are no alternatives. So where does that leave you if you want a high quality lightweight racing machine on a first to finish wins basis? In New England that means A cats in the summer and DN ice yachts in the winter.

And now I leave you to argue for the rest of the winter as I begin the long drive from Connecticut to Minnesota for the 2005 DN worlds and North Americans. Speaking of Large fleets, initial estimates are 160 DN’s from 17 counties in attendance. How exactly do you say Starboard in Estonian anyway?

Eric Anderson

In past surveys done by various entities, the majority of sailors have expressed a clear preference for one-design racing (I consider this to generally cover single-manufacturer one-design, multiple-manufacturer one-design, and formula).

But there is a spectrum ranging from people like me who do not like open-class racing under any circumstances, to those who do not like one-design racing under any circumstances.

So I phrased my original question the way I did because I wanted to hear from those people at the far end of the spectrum from me and find out whether and why they REALLY do not like one-design racing at all.

A lot of people SAY they prefer open class racing, but when they explain further, it usually turns out that they "prefer" it out of necessity rather than choice, because of the type of boat they have or type of boat they want.

But even then "choice" is involved, because they have chosen a boat (for financial, esthetic, or performance reasons) that does not have a viable class, either locally or nationally, to be able to race one-design.

And on a different level choice is also involved because even if people would actually prefer to race one-design if they could do it with their boat of choice, they are not proactive about growing their class. They just passively accept their fate of having to race on handicap.

By the way, in this thread only one person seemed to REALLY not like one-design racing under any circumstances.