But they do have the Round the World record which is ratified and very official. The JV trophy is not "a record" but is an award for achieving the record. Fossett and crew very clearly have established the record for sailing around the world and there's no two ways to look at it.

Jeez Wouter what are you basing this statement on

I would put the Brits at the top

Best Olympic sailing team ever in last years Olympics, OK the French might hold the solo circumnavigation, but only until the weekend.

I think the USA are probably top of the honours table if you look at ISAF figures but they do have quite a lot more people participating than the rest of us.

Gareth

if the messanger doesn't want to be shot he shouldn't interject his opinion into the message...

You may not like it but it is the truth.

Who are driving the mini650, vendee globe, ORMA and round the world racing cirquits ?

Who has won the most of these cirquits. Who are BY FAR the most innovative with boat design ?

Who are the winners of the last "The Race" ? And who designed and build both the winners and the top 3 boats of THE RACE ? Who even thought up the race to begin with.

Who have gether most distance race records as a nation.

Who started F18 racing ?

And so on ...

Sorry guys but the answer in not the Brits or Americans.

The answer is still the French, Australians and New Zealanders. Sorry. Mike Golding and Ellen Mac. don't do more than close the gap a little bit. Fosset and Ogletree are exceptions to the rule. I have never seen a UK or US crew in the top 5 of F18 or A-cat class for example, both ISAF classes mind you ! And even in the H16 class the French and Australians won more than their fair share. Population of Aus = 18 million, New Zealand = 6 million or so; France about 50 million. Compare that to 230 million of the USA ?

Sorry guys: US isn't a biggy and the UK is a has been.

Don't shoot the messenger !

Wouter

And there you have the two reasons why the recognision will fall short of the achievement. And don't give me a hard time about it it is not I can change that for you guys.

If all future round the world records are again broken in the JV framework then the Fosset record will eventually be largely forgotten.

Hell I can setup a rival match racing event with the two AC boats outside of the AC framework were when the current AC holder loses we can all PRETEND that that is more valuable or more recognised than the fact that the loser STILL holds the AC cup. In the traditional enviroment of sailing elites however such rebelious attitudes are NOT valued and they see the holder of the cup as the rightful owner of the braggin rights.

Sorry, I'm a rebel as well, don't forget that. Why else would I sail cats ? Not real baots to the same elite.

Wouter

Like I said, depends on what spit you stand on. To me WGAF about the JVT, except those who stand to be paid for every attempt to break the record? ALL world sailing records are ratified by the WSSRC, not JVC, so to me the JV is really insignificant, sorry. Above that, if Peyron et al don't perpetuate the trophy by continuing to set the JVT record IT would be forgotten before a WSSRC record; I'd bet on that. For 30 G's (even 11) I'd rather have a big friggin party too! I think the JVC have a little too much hubris. If the elites would have made it an even playing field SF would have paid the 11 and been done with it, but the JVC wanted to be hard butts, so this is what they get. I hope Orange misses the WSSRC record by 30 sec, but obtains the JV.

I agree, the US is way behind the EU, AUS and Kiwis in our sport in almost every aspect (except good looks .

Wouter,

You are just picking out individual events to back up your claim, which is rubbish. Go and look at the sailing world records web site, http://www.sailspeedrecords.com. The USA dominates.

Look at the Olympic results www.sailing.org/olympics2004 the UK dominates, is that the UK being "has beens". In fact I wouldn't even have bothered to reply to this if you hadn't used the phrase "has been".

As for the most innovative boat design that would be me

Gareth

Wouter,

I'm not sure where this egotistical - anti-American sailing attitude is coming from but let me address a couple of these things with what you enjoy most...."actual data". Below I present the WSSRC list of records by skipper. If you'll notice on that list, it will be a LONG LONG LONG time before Steve Fossett is "happily forgotten". Such a statement is very childish, needlessly provoking, and uniformed.

Records held by skipper:

The next piece of actual data is the records by country (again, as presented by the sole global council that ratifies sailing records). France is strong, but they're not exactly dominating. And as Grob pointed out, if you also look at the largest, most recognized, 'global' course racing measurement (the Olympics), GBR is clearly dominating.

Records by Country

I don't know Gareth, what does the JV and around the world sailing compare to best.

Laser 1 sailing in the olympics of the ORMA / round the world sailing events ?

Take look here :

http://www.sailspeedrecords.com./transatlantic.html

7 French 2 USA no brits.

Then here :

http://www.sailspeedrecords.com./roundnonstop.html

5 French, 3.5 Brits, 2 USA and 0.5 NZL (Of the 5 last records since 1989 3 were held by French sailors)


Then look here :

http://www.sailspeedrecords.com./distancerun.html

Longest distance run in 24 hours :

By any yacht, any crew : Bruno Peyron (FRA) on Orange 706 NM at average 29.42 knots

By any yacht singlehanded : Laurent Bourgnon (FRA) On Primagaz 540.0 nautical miles, 22.50 knots

And then we go into the DEFINED records that are only records because we define other boats and sailor OUT of the comparison.

Up to 60 ft monohull, any number of crew : John Kostecki and crew (GER)

By monohull, any number of crew MariCha IV, Robert Miller GBR and a crew of 24, 140 ft monohull

By monohull, single-handed : AT Racing, Alex Thomson GBR,

Maybe we should ALSO define a 3 layered record framework for multihulls to make things fair again; Like Multihull up to 60 Foot (ORMA boats = French) ; Multihull to any length (Orange = French) and Multihull solo (Joyon = French).


With respect to

http://www.sailspeedrecords.com./ratified.html

passage records.

16 USA, 13 FRA and 11 GBR

BUT

FRA

Transpacific, Los Angeles – Honolulu
Transatlantic W to E, Ambrose Light - Lizard Point, singlehanded
Cadiz to San Salvador, Singlehanded
Transpacific W to E, Yokohama – San Francisco
Round the World, non stop, singlehanded
Transatlantic W to E, Ambrose Light to Lizard Point, single-handed female any vessel
Transatlantic E to W, Plymouth – Newport singlehanded
Round Britain and Ireland, all islands, non stop, monohull
Round the World, non stop, singlehanded, monohull
New York – San Francisco, non stop, crewed
Round the World, non stop, westabout, singlehanded
***
Cowes to Dinard, monohull and singlehanded.
Marseille – Carthage

USA (pretty much all Steve Fosset when doing his round the world on playstation)

Transpacific W to E, Yokohoma – San Francisco, singlehanded
Transpacific E to W, San Francisco – Yokohoma
Honolulu – Yokohoma
Round the World, non stop, crewed, any type
Round Britain and Ireland, all islands, non stop, crewed
Cadiz – San Salvador
Fastnet Course (Cowes-Fastnet Rock-Plymouth
Plymouth-La Rochelle
Transatlantic W to E, Ambrose Light – Lizard Point
***
Miami – New York
Newport, RI – Bermuda, singlehanded
Newport, RI – Bermuda
Thailand Gulf (Mitch Booth and Herbert Dercksen sailing for USA ? BS ! What kind of passage is Thailand Gulf on a beachcat ?
Round the Isle of Wight (This is like the UK round Texel!)


Honestly I think the last 5 verified USA records are a bit of a stretch. We can squable over the Miami-New York one but the others are just not regarded in the general public as serious records. And even the FastNet Course is not considered an ocean passage.

When looking at the French we might cross away the marseille -carthage and Cowes to Dinard. All trips of less then or about a day.

Lets look at the UK guys or rather WOMEN (Mainly Ellen).

Transatlantic W to E, Ambrose Light – Lizard Point, monohull
Transatlantic W to E outright women, and singlehanded woman
Sydney – Hobart
Round the World, non stop, singlehanded, woman, Vendée Globe
Bermuda to Plymouth
Transatlantic E to W, Plymouth – Newport, monohull and woman any vessel
Round Britain and Ireland, all islands, non stop, women
Round Ireland, (single-handed)
***
Round the World, assisted, westabout, (257 days !!!!! recreational sailors have done it quicker !)
Round the Isle of Wight, monohull, rule 5c (The UK round Texel)
Cowes – Dinard



4 records of the UK are because they were set by women instead of men out of 6 records that were set by women. So the UK is very emancipated but compared to 2 all out records held by French women of which one because she was a woman.

The last 3 records of GBR are a little funny.

Who are the record holders


I say that the smallest nation among these the French seriously outperform their size in relation to nations like GBR and USA. USA can thank Fosset on their knees as he is the one that holds 90% of the US records. However the French hold to important ones. The all-out records and the largest number of true big ocean pasages.

You guys may not like it but it is the truth.

And this is ONLY the WSSRC racing records, when we start adding race wins like in teh Minitransat and ORMA cirquits than the French come out even better. As well as the Aussies and NZl-ders

Again don't shoot the messenger

Wouter

France certainly has their eccentric and well funded sailors / builders that are helping to drive the cutting edge, but they haven't put up the records yet to show "dominance".

If you are going to pick individual record by record that supports your claim (and base them on "perceived public perception"), and ignore the big overall picture, there's no way we can continue this discussion.

I comment on the fact of how Fossets round the world BUT NOT JV record will be regarded by the elites and in the long term and the Brits drag in the Olympics and the Americans call me Anti-American. Geez !

As Shakespeare wrote "Thou protest way to fierce"

Olympics are nothing but pottering about on a miniscule course in protected water between sunrise and sunset when compared to the ocean races we were talking about. These are just unrelated. We we talking about oceans races, passages, round the World stuff. Not some 45 minute heat on Dartmore Common reservoir. (or what they are called)

And for Jake, Am I now put on the terrorist watch list because I fail to fall down on my knees to "Quantity over quality" mr Fosset ? Am I Anti-British as well now or maybe Anti-South African, Anti-whatever (excluding FRA, Aus and NZL ? Which part of "... how the elites will view it ..." do you misinteprete as "Wouters opinion about the record"

What I said was that Fossets Round the World record will be easily forgotten when he no longer is listed in the WSSRC and he was never listed in the JV scoring. Who give a damn about his "Round the Isle of Wight" record while sailing playstation ? Nobody is even going to try to beat that as it is a non-record. It is like Peyron doing Round Texel on Orange. It just doesn't show any greatness. Nobody is really impressed by Newport - Bermuda or even the French marseille-carthage records either, they are just too insignificant. The big records count, the rest are just sponsor runs.


Also Jake you forget one very important thing :




Fosset is the only one who tried all records on a maxi cat. All others didn't find the bulk og them interesting enough to try. However most of these records were set by Fosset within just over 2 years. So all that is needed to wipe mr Fosset of the score board is one of the new faster maxi cats to do a World tour like Fosset has done. This could be done in the same short time frame as Fosset himself replaced all former owners (most French) who have now disappeared. THAT is how easily fame is lost. I'll bet YOU can't even remember the last holders before Fosset. So why do YOU think many will remember Fosset after he has been replaced ?

There is a reason why Fossets rep among Elites is a little bit funny. Like I said the way you do things maybe more important than the fact that you've done them. Call it old Europe or Anti-American, or whatever makes you feel better, but don't pretend that Fosset changed any of this. He didn't, and he won't.

Now this is not my opinion of how things should be ! TAKE NOTE ! But it is how they are.

And keep your xenofobic "Anti-French" smears were you hold your "Anti-American" ones. They are of the same fabric.


Wouter

What is the bigger overall picture here Jake ?

That Fosset went on a record hunt for 2 years and tried to achieve as many as he could. How did the bigger picture look like before Fosset started on this hunt in 2001 ? Now that Fosset has retired from sailing do you think that the USA will continue to dominate ? Did the US even prove to dominate international ocean passage sailing or racing ? I mean is there an American sailor in the Vendee Globe or in the ORMA cirquit ? How many US sailors are in the Volvo ocean race or even the BT global challenge ? How many were in "THE RACE" or the mini transat ? Seriously does a single multu-bullionair on a individual record breaking binch proof that Americans as a sailing nation dominate ocean sailing ? Or did it just proof that if you spend the time and money on trying every record out there; no matter how small, that you'll end up with a few of them. Halve of these records will not even be attempted by the competition as they are not regarded as serious records. There used to be a record for Amsterdam-Jakarta, who gives a [email]d@mn[/email] about that record now ? If the greater public does not see them as special then they will cease to exist as meaningful records. That is the way things go; That has nothing to do with 'Ignoring the bigger picture' ; In fact THAT is the bigger picture.

Sorry guys, Obviously I stepped on some toes when commenting on Fosset. I understand that I would have won the popularity contest if I had decided to piss on the Peyrons even if for no reason, but I'm not the one suffering from blinds on my eyes or any anti-ism.

Once Fosset loses his most important record, the round the world, than his star will quickly diminish. And no Newport-Bermuda record, fastnet coures or Round Island of White record can safe him. His Lakota records are now 10 years old because the passages are not part of the highly regarded ones and so nobody really tries to break them.

Wouter

They're records, Fossett holds more of them than anyone, nobody is keeping anyone from attempting them. Fossett set out to attempt those records with the mindset to also thoroughly test out his boat and crew as well as to rack them up. These records are recognized by the SINGLE sanctioning body for sailing records and as such they are records whether or not you want to choose to ignore some of them. The sailing elite have never respected Fossett as a sailor so I don't see what difference that makes.

Secondly, I did not bash the French, I only stated what happened, how unfair it appears, and pointed out the serious conflicts of interest of the JV committee.

Third, the JV trophy is an AWARD! It's not a record! Yes, it throws in a few of it's own course and start/finish requirements (that fall within the confines of the RTW record) but it is most certainly not recognized as a 'record' by the WSSRC.

You were happy to use these types of class when it suited your case

Gareth

As a reply to you dragging in the ISAF class, mind you !

I didn't initiate the ISAF class or olympics branch-off.

Wouter

Children.

I think you are going to have to agree to des-agree or this will go on for ever.

I do not really care.

Alright ! I agree to disagree FIRST =) !

Nah, nah, nanah, nah

Wouter

To me, the important thing is NOT who has the most records or what country has the best sailors.

The most important thing is what country has done the most to bring big-multihull racing into the world spotlight. And I think that is definitely France.

Even years ago when they first had a Formula 40 circuit over there, we were told there were huge numbers of spectators at the races in France, the French sailors were considered sports superstars, and people actually asked for their autographs.

This kind of excitement about multihull racing is what other countries should be striving for. And we should be trying to find out how it happened in France, so we can generate more excitement, too. It sure does not happen in the United States.

We can have it too !

Organise ourselfs, work together and support eachother. You'll be surprise how a dew well run events can catch the imagination. Look at the Worrell 1000, Badly organised yes, but what will happen if it gets run the right way. It will grow into a annual happening of great international fame like Round Texel. With the right cooperation we can raise ourselfs to new levels and that is when the young generation will again take notice. Which young teenager doesn't want to be a hero in a Cool sport ! That still beats video games. First we need to become cool. Spi boats go a long way there, than we need to look slick like the kite surfers and wave boarders. Than means exist Hobie 16 and Prindle 16's. Great boats I love them too but these are just not going to cut it. Enter the F18's and such and than get that serious on that "men/women of steel and boats of wood" rep. Even it it is just a image more than it is reality.

We can do but we must WILL it.

Wouter