Hi Rick and all of the prospective organizers.



I don’t want to be a reactive nay sayer and I am certainly not opposed to NAMSA in principle but before a constitution is developed… I think that we need to develop a consensus on What would be its mission. What goals or objectives would the NAMSA organization work towards.



I believe that people are reacting to NAHCA politics and emerging policies. We should not simply create another organization that is NOT NAHCA with out carefully considering the consequences. I posed some questions that people might find useful in defining their own self-interest here.

Please feel free to offer your point of view on any topic below that you feel is a vital goal for NAMSA. Please raise other issues for consideration. Perhaps we can generate a major self interest in creating a working organziation.



Do we need an organization to speak to US Sailing?



Do we need an organization to run national championship events?



Do we need greater coordination on scheduling in regions? Nationally,?



Do we need someone to run the handicap system?



Does the fact that Hobie Fleets organize and put on the vast majority of cat racing in the US and are a monopoly for in many areas help or hurt Cat racing?



Has NAHCA mucked up the cat racing so badly with their actions that we have a compelling reason to bail out of this structure and create NAMSA?



Have Hobie Fleets responded to NACHA directives… now guidelines in ways that hurt Cat Racing?



Should NAMSA form and try to compete with NAHCA for membership and clout in response to NAHCA policy?



Should NAMSA try to run buoy’s regattas along side of the NAHCA regattas?



So… Here is the question for all Hobie Sailors who are considering NAMSA are you better off trying to change NAHCA over time or saying screw you and creating a new organization? (Obviously Open class sailors don’t care about NAHCA nor do the true believers of current NAHCA policy)



What mission is there for an association of one-design classes? What “mutual help” is needed here?



What mission is there for an association of multihull clubs like CRAC, CRAM, etc?



Do US Sailors in Performance or Hobie One design classes feel that they have effective control over their class? If they do should they build another one design organization under the NAMSA umbrella?



Do they feel that following the international class rules is helpful or harmful to the health of their class in the US and NAMSA would be the organization to effect change?



Do US sailors sailing dead boat society boats need an online-based class structure to vote on updating their class rules… IE Nacra 5.5 sloops updating to formula 18. Perhaps voting on allowing additional sail makers.



Should NAMSA advise US SAILING Portsmouth committee on what the “approved Class measurements” actually are (which is the underlying theoretical basis for all Portsmouth numbers)?



Should NAMSA advise US Sailing on Portsmouth numbers that should be frozen because they are not actively raced and the rating will not represent the boats performance?



Do the leaders in the new Formula 16 18 and 20 classes need to agree on general guidelines, racing events and codify these agreements within NAMSA?



Do we need an organization to interact with the larger cruising multihull classes?



Do we need to reconcile MASF, Chesapeake Cruising multihull, Portsmouth, PMA and PHRF rating systems for all kinds of mulithull racing?



Do we need to sponsor training of mulithull oriented PRO’s and judges within the US SAILING structure?



Do we need to create a Junior Olympic program on our own? Work with US SAILING.



Do we need a national policy of trying to move our racing away from NAHCA run events and to local Yacht clubs (like the rest of the sailing world)?



Do we have a problem with how NACHA and Performance organize their class? I.e. elections, representation, initiatives pursued by the classes. Etc.

I don’t want to be a reactive nay sayer and I am certainly not opposed to NAMSA in principle but before a constitution is developed… I think that we need to develop a consensus on What would be its mission. What goals or objectives would the NAMSA organization work towards.



I believe that people are reacting to NAHCA politics and emerging policies. We should not simply create another organization that is NOT NAHCA with out carefully considering the consequences. I posed some questions that people might find useful in defining their own self-interest here.

[color:red] The goal is certainly not an anti-NAHCA. NAMSA has been something we have been talking about for years, but there was simply no interest. The reason why was that NAHCA did indeed have in place an infrastructure that we all enjoyed. You see, I was not a Hobie sailor from the get to. I was first a Shark, then Tornado, then Laser sailor. And back then National and Midwinter Nationals were governed by NAMSA. This is not a new idea. The west coast of the U.S. did not acknowledge NAMSA, however. They were pretty well set on sailing P-Cats and then Tornadoes, until Hobie Alter came along.

Please feel free to offer your point of view on any topic below that you feel is a vital goal for NAMSA. Please raise other issues for consideration. Perhaps we can generate a major self interest in creating a working organziation.



Do we need an organization to speak to US Sailing?

[color:red] more about NAHCA. With the incoming president's views the catamaran world suddenly realized there was a need for an umbrella organization. "What!" We all said. NAHCA doesn't want the responsibility for all cats?" Of course, they don't want that responsibility. And in one of our issues there was an piece by then Chair of the US Sailing Multihull Council, Gordon Isco entitled "MHC: What It Is, What It Ain't." Therein, he very certainly pointed out that MHC does not want that job either.

So, Yes, as an aggragate of all the clubs, associations, fleets, etc. of multihull sailors from around North America, we would have a lot more say to US Sailing. We would be in a position of NOT being denied a cat in the Youth Championships as we were this very year.



Do we need an organization to run national championship events?

[color:red] We can sanction events of all kinds, i.e., North Americans, Nationals, Midwinter Nationals (possibly east and west) or whatever.



Do we need greater coordination on scheduling in regions? Nationally,?



[color:red] Catamaran Sailor Magazine presently seeks out a publishes schedules from all parts of the country, which is not easy task each year. Hopefully, NAMSA could take over that task and make those all sanctioned events.



Do we need someone to run the handicap system?

[color:red] No, Darline Hobock is awesome. And who would want to subject themselves to the torture she goes through.

However, with the power of all multihull organizations behind us we could make strong suggestions to MHC on ratings.



Does the fact that Hobie Fleets organize and put on the vast majority of cat racing in the US and are a monopoly for in many areas help or hurt Cat racing?

[color:red] Since NAHCA does not want the overall responsibility, we would hope they would be strong supporters of NAMSA and would submit their regattas to our schedule. If they wanted designation of "Hobie Only" then so be it. While I don't agree with their new policy, it is certainly their right. And certainly most larger fleets of all organizations would not want open cats at their particular nationals, i.e., the Wave Nationals would not want Inter 20s there, nor H16 want Taipans sailing with them, etc.



Has NAHCA mucked up the cat racing so badly with their actions that we have a compelling reason to bail out of this structure and create NAMSA?

[color:red] They have done a fine job over the years and have set a good example for an infrastructure.



Have Hobie Fleets responded to NACHA directives… now guidelines in ways that hurt Cat Racing?

[color:red] We don't get all over the country, but everywhere I have gone NAHCA directives are pretty much ignored anyway. Our own Fleete 36 was converted to CABB (Cat Assn of Biscayne Bay) a number of year ago because we were simply running out of members with Hobies. CABB is also the hosting club for the Tradewinds Midwinter Open Cat Nationals where you will see just about every kind of boat out there. But, it is still a Hobie Fleet.



Should NAMSA form and try to compete with NAHCA for membership and clout in response to NAHCA policy?

[color:red] Not at all, we want all mulithull associations to join NAMSA as associations, wherein each association will have a representative in a council. NAMSA can help NAHCA, CABB, CRAM, CRAW, OCRA, et al in one united voice.



Should NAMSA try to run buoy’s regattas along side of the NAHCA regattas?

[color:red] We should work together. This is not about competition against any association.



So… Here is the question for all Hobie Sailors who are considering NAMSA are you better off trying to change NAHCA over time or saying screw you and creating a new organization? (Obviously Open class sailors don’t care about NAHCA nor do the true believers of current NAHCA policy)

[color:red] In the proposed rough constitution we have sort of suggested that we want folks to join as members of their association (NAHCA, CABB, et al) and that the association join NAMSA. The dues would be based on the number of members in that association and they would simply add on some to cover those NAMSA dues and then send the dues moneys to NAMSA. Should someone not be a member of any organization, they could join as individuals at a higher price.



What mission is there for an association of one-design classes? What “mutual help” is needed here?

[color:red] They would offer support in many ways. Each class or organization would have a seat on the council



What mission is there for an association of multihull clubs like CRAC, CRAM, etc? [color:red]see above



Do US Sailors in Performance or Hobie One design classes feel that they have effective control over their class? If they do should they build another one design organization under the NAMSA umbrella?

[color:red] Personally, I never felt I had anything to say about any class I was in, except the Tornado class where I was Class Secretary. When I switched to Hobie 18 in 1980 (due to Carter and the Olympic fiasco) I just lived with what rules they had. There was seemingly no imput sought from the sailors. And most decisions were made at a National Meeting always held at the H16 Nationals. So TheMightyHobie18 decisions were being made by H16 sailors. Thus, the poor downhaul and poor mast rotation set up required for years and years. Nacra is pretty much the same way. While there was a president it seemed to me more of a figurehead situation for a factory operation.

I got an email from a person that object to my using the term "ousted" when I was referring to Nigel Pitt. And it was probably a poor choice of words. However, an agenda was voted in that was not the agenda of most of the Hobie sailors and fleet from around the country. For example, here in Div 8 no one's opinion was ever sought from our fleet about how we felt, and in talking to others around Florida I got the same. So, in other words, the Republic idea of having a representative vote for you was corrupted by some other agenda within the organization. Our Rep obviously did not have clue what the constituents of Div 8 wanted.

That is why I would like to somehow set NAMSA up so that individual votes can be casted -- let the sailors decide.



Do they feel that following the international class rules is helpful or harmful to the health of their class in the US and NAMSA would be the organization to effect change?

[color:red] to be determined, I guess. But, for one thing, I could see a real problem using the new starting sequences when you have lots of starts. Plus, you would really keep the airhorn companies thriving (great investment), and we would need four-armed flag wavers.



Do US sailors sailing dead boat society boats need an online-based class structure to vote on updating their class rules… IE Nacra 5.5 sloops updating to formula 18. Perhaps voting on allowing additional sail makers.

[color:red] We should do all we can to get more people sailing, and sailing aptly



Should NAMSA advise US SAILING Portsmouth committee on what the “approved Class measurements” actually are (which is the underlying theoretical basis for all Portsmouth numbers)?

[color:red] see above



Should NAMSA advise US Sailing on Portsmouth numbers that should be frozen because they are not actively raced and the rating will not represent the boats performance?



Do the leaders in the new Formula 16 18 and 20 classes need to agree on general guidelines, racing events and codify these agreements within NAMSA?

[color:red] we should help them in any way we can and sanction their events.

Speaking of sanctioning events, we could also negotiate better insurance coverage for events.



Do we need an organization to interact with the larger cruising multihull classes?

[color:red] Absolutely! This is for all Multihulls. A good example of the need for NAMSA: I raced with Lyman White on his F25C at Key West Week a few years back and during the race a monohull hit a cat and sunk it. The organizers would not let multihulls sail the regatta after that. The cat was on starboard, the mono on port. They claimed that we sail different angles (the cat was sailing upwind). In other words, this was pure bias. With all the organizations joining together we could have been a strong and powerful voice against the race, Key West, Yachting Magazine (the sponsor), and there would have been multis back the next year.

San Francisco NOOD had another similar story -- seems the tri ran over the RC boat.



Do we need to reconcile MASF, Chesapeake Cruising multihull, Portsmouth, PMA and PHRF rating systems for all kinds of mulithull racing?



[color:red] Good question! As I said earlier, we really don't want to mess with Darline's work, but some of the other ratings have gotten a big too diverse. MASF ratings were the subject of complaints for many years. Something we need to address perhaps.



Do we need to sponsor training of mulithull oriented PRO’s and judges within the US SAILING structure?

[color:red] Sounds like a good idea



Do we need to create a Junior Olympic program on our own? Work with US SAILING.



[color:red]Absolutely! No one else is doing anything about Junior sailing on multis. Lot of lip service, no action! And those that are involved, get quickly un-involved as soon as their kid ages or goes to another sport.

Do we need a national policy of trying to move our racing away from NAHCA run events and to local Yacht clubs (like the rest of the sailing world)?

[color:red] We have a much better chance of not being nomads if we are united in NAMSA. Yacht clubs were very instrumental in forcing cats to the beaches. Some of the earlier designs were not that fast, were hard to tack and hard to right. YCs just laughed them away.

And then came Hobie that was formed by a bunch of beach guys and surfers and said, "Who needs a yacht club?" So cats have since become the bedouins of the beach. However, the Tornado is still a YC boat and usually not shunned due their Olympic status.

In other words, YCs do offer a lot and if we work at it with NAMSA, we will slowly become accepted.



Do we have a problem with how NACHA and Performance organize their class? I.e. elections, representation, initiatives pursued by the classes. Etc.

[color:red]That is their problem. NAMSA should have no say in how each organization runs themselves.



Good Questions and remember the answers are simply my opinions. NAMSA may end up being something else.

Thanks

Rick

I had answered your questions awhile ago on the public forum, but it was far down the page... I'll reiterate:



Mark wrote:

: Hi Tami



>>>Hi Mark...



: My first question is Who runs the races in your area. I believe you have local yacht clubs running the majority of your events. The cat sailors contribute by helping the yacht club. I am not sure what kind of national leadership is needed here.



>>>In MS Gulf coast area, the Coast Catamaran Club, a non-NAHCA affiliated club, runs one event, and two are run by OSYC with help from the CCC. I'm very sure these folks would like some help that could be offered on a national level, such as unified scoring program freeware, printed scoring/timesheets, course stickers, and contact and advertising avenues.





: What is the relationship of the racing sailor to the casual sailor... In our area, We have a difficult time getting people to jump up to racing at hobie points regattas. We have a lot of new sailors try a big poitns regatta and never return. Perhaps we missed something that could have made the experience positive and get the guy to return. What role would NAMSA /NAHCA play here.



>>>>I see no reason for Hobie points regattas unless they're onedesign Hobie. What are the NACRA/Prindle/Gcat/18sq/Inter/Brand X guys going to do with Hobie points? Why should Brand X pay to either join NAHCA or pay a 'boat tax' or extra fees at a regatta to race, especially when the race is comprised of more Brand X than of Hobie class boats? NAHCA needs Brand X far more than Brand X needs them, for as you admit, the fleets depend on non-Hobie class boats for their survival.





: We have a difficult time getting new sailors into cats for just recreation. Again, I am not sure what national leadership could do to solve this one. The discusion on the civil forum generated lots of ideas and pointed to some things. National leadership did not come up.



>>>National leadership can be more inclusive of all boat makes, which might well make Joe Sailor feel a little less cut-out because he doesn't own a Hobie. I also would hope that in developing a national organization, we can place some emphasis on recreational activities as well as on racing. Why not have national awards for those who volunteer, or who set up weekend / day sails, etc. And a national organization can lobby for beach access with a powerful voice...





: Hell. look at the initiatives proposed by Rich McVeigh and ask how they will foster more hobie sailors racing at hobie events. I don't see much there... perhaps Youth programs (always a tough issue)... i surely don't see joe sailor motivated to go to a world championship in hobie 16's



>>>>No, of course he isn't. Joe Sailor would like to occasionally race, without paying extra because of the boat he sails. Joe Sailor likes to have a group of other sailors he can hang with. He might like having a national newsletter. Joe might want to fight for beach access for him and his local fleet. Joe might like having a resource for information.





: How does a national organization effect the grass roots?

>>>>Well, I've kinda been telling you that all along. Until recently, I haven't been involved with NAHCA at all, since I was involved with the CCC, as I said above. But since I moved to Texas, I have joined the local fleet, which is a Hobie fleet, although its membership is comprised of mostly non Hobie-class boats. It's interesting. I don't really see NAHCA doing anything for these guys, except having previously laid out the network of Divisions/Fleets. The Division provides an avenue for advertisement and communication amongst the fleets, and the fleets run the races. This is all local, in effect. But what happens at a race is that the local fleet charges extra for non-NAHCA members to enter races, sort of like a 'boat tax.' They don't get the 'tax' as it is sent off. That would be ok if it is sent to the Division, which is providing a service, but I think it is at least partially sent to NAHCA, which really isn't doing anything at all, not for the majority Brand X.



>>>>My assertion is: if any given fleet is mostly Hobie class, well then, sure, they should stay within the NAHCA organization, it would make sense. But in our, and I'm getting the feeling that in a lot more than our, case, it would make sense for the fleets to align themselves with a similar, NATIONAL, ALL INCLUSIVE, organization that will represent them, not just one make, and will provide the same avenues of communication and support that NAHCA previously had.





: From my point of view...a possilbe NAHCA policy... We welcome open class and formula class and we strongly support one design sailing in Waves to Supercat 22's. would be fantastic postive change!



>>>>Why does this have to be NAHCA? This policy would be inherent in a national open class organization, wouldn't it? Then Brand X wouldn't feel like he was being 'taxed without representation.' And if he was active within his class, then he can join his individual class organization as well.





: NAHCA policy of "we need open class participation for finiancial viability in our area" speaks for itself.

>>>>If you need Brand X, then you should return the favor. Represent Brand X if you tax them. And no, thank you, I don't want to be hammered with pressure to get a Hobie, either. Joe Sailor just wants to race a little and have a good time.



Sea ya

tami

Tami,



Well said.



Across the country there are fewer and fewer fleets that are Hobie "only". Yet Nahca, does not support any of their other paying "members".



NAMSA could be this umbrella national body that no other organization wants to be.



Thank you for your comments.



Steve