This is going to be my last year sailing the boat I'm currently in due to class age restrictions. I'm excited to move into a different fleet, and my choices are either a scow or a cat. The cat class on my lake is open, and I was hoping somebody here could suggest a boat. I'm looking for something that is high performance and doublehanded. One of my friends is going to sail with me and together I think we would weigh at least 290, probably more because we will have grown (both 16). The other sailors are racing a Nacra 5.8, ARC 22 and a SuperCat 17. There are other boats as well but I'm not sure what they are. Neither my friend nor I are new to sailing, and I think we could handle a lot. Any thoughts/advice would be appreciated.

I have another question as well. Since I don't think I'll have enough money to buy a new boat for next year, could somebody talk about how competitive older boats are? I just found a few early '90's miracle20's and was just wondering how they would do in a competitive fleet of the same boat if they were in good condition.

f18.
its the place to be.

I was thinking about an f18 or tiger, but the 20 is easier to come by.

At 290 lbs you will be underweight for the Hobie 20. Most of the 20' cats are better suited for teams at 350 lbs or better. There are several options in used boats that we meet what you need. The Nacra 5.8 or 5.5 would be a good high performance boat for you guys. The Hobie 18 would be great too. I could go on....F18 is growing like fire in the U.S. and your weight is also reasonable for this class. F18 has two different sailplans - a smaller jib and spinnaker for teams at around 289 lbs and a larger jib and spinnaker for teams starting at 330 lbs. The boats are pretty quick but you do have to learn to work a spinnaker.

The spinnaker won't be a problem. When you say f18 do you mean the nacra or should I look at hawks and tigers too.

Check out the Capricorn built by Australian High Performace Catamarans, manufactures of A Class and Taipans. Very quick F-18. Should be a dealer over there.

http://www.ahpc.com.au/f18.html

Sharp looking boat Stephen. How about some pictures of the chined sterns?

Hear hear!
Also, look at the depth of that mainsail in the last picture.. Love the mast rotation they are sailing with while beating.

But this boat might be hard to find in the U.S, and possibly a handful for two 16 years olds?
I would have looked hard at the F-16 used-market, unless you are strong and fit.
I often sail with a 16 year old as crew on our T, and he struggles when sheeting the spi in a blow. Main is OK, he's able to use his legs then..

Rolf:

I'm thinking the same thing; the F-18 (any of them) with a spin is a handful, and I'm not convinced it's the cat to start on. I like the idea of getting a spin option because we're hearing more about it all the time.

I'd look around for a good used cat in the area (ask someone that REALLY knows what to look for). If you're buying it to race, you'll probably have more fun in traveling to cat regattas instead of trying to find a C scow regatta and traveling 12 hours...


Wyatt

I was going to suggest the F16 as well. I think it would be perfect for what they are looking for - lightweight, versatile and with a spinnaker, but at this point there really isn't a second hand market to speak of. Brand new boats are available from Vectorworks though if you want to go that route (but you'll have to get in line behind me - just ordered mine last week ).

Mark.

I just looked at formula16.org and I think this may be the route I take. Thanks for pointing me towards the f16's.

If your approaching 300lbs. crew weight, you might want to to visit Formula 18 Class
The Formula 18 class is growing world wide & in the North America Region they're the #1 selling Cat. Just visit any Hobie, Nacra or AHPC Dealer to get the facts.
Because of the volume of new boats selling, you should be able to hook up with a good used one.

Ted

I haven't read the class rules, so I guess I'll just ask. Somebody said that we might have trouble managing the boat when the wind picks up (f18). Are there rules regulating mechanical advantage/is that something I would want to do. Otherwise the f16 looks like it is the boat for me, provided I can get one.

All formula classes (F20, F18, F16, A-cats, and also the Tornado's can be included in this) allow alot of freedom to adjust the boat to you body strength and sailing style. Think of Formula rules as being nothing more than a rough framework that limits the major dimensions of a boat. It often doesn't not rule at all on smaller things or details. So everything is allowed as long as you don't breach any major limits on hulls length, sailarea and weight.

If anybody commented on a F18 being "troublesome to manage when the wind picks up" than I think he is refering to the control and experience that is required to channel the power into speed by the proper lanes. It may become daunting when this is not done right. It can feel like there is alot of Horsepower under that gas pedal.

Personally I think highly of both the F18 class and F16 class. But I'm very active in the F16 class, just that you know.

If you are strapped for money that a revamping a second hand nacra 5.2 of 5.5 would be my first advice. Otherwise the others will give you alot of bang for the buck.

Choice between F18 and F16 I would place on your intended way of sailing and even your personal sailing style.

Getting an secondhand F16 will be very difficult, All the sailors that have them, hang on to them. Only option here is buying new. A real pitty but that is just the way it is.

Personally I sailed both and found that the F16 suits my way of sailing better. I liked sailing F18's but I personally like my F16 better. I just like the really lively feel of it and the way that its design uses soft power. It doesn't attain speed through alot of canvas. It reaches the same speeds as an F18 by minimizing overall drag for a medium sized saildrive. It is a different way of sailing that you might have to get used too. You won't do well by just powering the thing up. You will have to find ways into special low drag high speed lanes by finding the right trim and sail settings and keeping the boat there. I personally really like this way of sailing adn I really like the way she feels under sail. A friend described it like this :"The boat is talking to you" and to that I mostly agree.

Anyway, best of luck with whichever boat you decide upon

Wouter

I think that rules out the Capricorn which goes for over $20K US. Does anyone know if any have made it to the US yet?

You will find that the F-16 would be more demanding to sail than the F-18 due to its narrower beam, much lighter weight and still a very powerful sail plan. The F-18 is definatly more flighty than an F-18 or even a T. When graced buy a gust, a T will accelorate a lot more than healing due to its beam. The F-18 will do like wise to an extent due to its weight. The F-16 whilst taking advantage of the lighter weight to accelorate will still heal quicker than an F-18.

The loads on the mainsheet and especially the spinnker on the F-18 and 16 are a lot lighter than the T.

I have sailed Ts, F-18 and F-16. No doupt which ever one you buy, you will enjoy realy enjoy the boat. Most important factor will be what is raced localy to you. If it is F-18 Tiger for example, don't get to hung up about a Tiger over any other F-18. Likewise with F-16.

Hope this helps

sailmax.biz is working on being an AHPC dealer here in the U.S. and will work to bring the price down on the Capricorn (the problem is the transportation of the new boat from Austrailia).

The only F18 I sailed (once) was a Tiger and I found it great fun to sail with loads of power on tap. However, it's very much a 2 up boat that has to be sailed with a deal of respect for the power available (especially in the higher beauforts).

I also sailed Ts for a long time (more years than I care to remember ) and it was a tremendously forgiving and rewarding boat to sail, but when trying to get that last 'nth' of speed out of it, she could turn round and bite!

Having said all that, the boat that I chose for my return to cat racing is an F16 - light, responsive, rewarding, power when you want it but docile when you don't. I can sail one up in a force5 or 2 up in a F4. When 2 up I can sail with my 19 yr old son (6ft and 170lbs), my 5ft wife, or my 4ft 4in 12 year old son. It's versatile, fun and FAST.

Yes, in gusty conditions, quick reactions can be needed if 'pushing the envelope', but if it gets too much - a bit more downhaul, alter the mast rotation and you've got a pussycat instead of a puppy!

Hey Mark, congrats on ordering a Blade, when's it due?

That would be cool, though I would have thought the exchange rate would be a tough challenge in the near-medium term. Do you know if they looking at the other AHPC product as well - Taipan, Flyer?

Mark.