I am currently sailing a Hobie 17 but plan on upgrading to an F16 as early as next season. One thing that surprised me about the H17 is how much I like the wings, so much so that I'd like to have them on an F16. Even if you didn't use them for racing (by the way, would they be legal for racing and if so, why not consider allowing them?), they would add to the recreational versatility of F16's which is a large part of the draw of the F16 class. I think they would be appealing both when singlehanding and doublehanding.

What's great about them is that they give you incredible flexibility, leverage, and comfort. In light or med wind you can rest your back against them or even "hike" without using foot/hiking straps. With a little more wind you can just move out and sit on them (it's very comfortable and it feels like your're sailing on a boat with a 12 foot beam). When the wind picks up you trap off the windward wing rail and have awsome control and leverage. An of course you can just take them off in 30 seconds any time you want.

Other singlehanders like the FX1 and I17R can be fitted with wings that slide into the beams. If fact Hobie Europe offers three different wings configurations: 1) full raised wings, 2) full non-raised wings, and 3) "sport" wings, which don't use a wing tramp and are basically a rail about a foot ouside of each hull at deck level giving more trapezing leverage. I think all three designs would be useful depending in the conditions and circumstances.

Since F16's are shorter and lighter boats than F18's, it's not surprising that in very windy conditions the F18's can have an advantage. I think that adding wings to F16's in these conditions would level the playing field. Why depower when you can have the option to add more leverage, especially when singlehanding against an F18? And in designs with optimized volume distribution and/or T-foil rudders I would think the platforms can take the additional leverage easily (I know the H17 can and it doesn't have either).

Does anyone know if the Hobie Europe wings might be able to be adapted to the beams of Blade, Taipan, and Stealth F16? The inside diameter of the beams and the distance between the beams would need to be comparable. Anyone know how these compare between FX1, Blade, Taipan, and Stealth?

So, to the members of the F16 class, what do you think? And to the manufacturers of F16's (Matt, Greg, and John) why not offer them as a way to add additional accessory revenue and broaden the recreational appeal of these great boats? Seems to me there's lots to gain and nothing to lose.

Jerry

Wings are allowed on F16. As long as the overall width does not surpass the 8ft 2inch wide beam.

Straight from the F16 rules.
1.2.2 The maximum overall beam measured on the platform is 2.50 mtr. (= 8,2 ft.)

1.2.3 Wings may be carried as long as the equivalent overall beam when measured over the platform and one fully extended wing is 2,50 mtr. or less.

If you are racing in a open class you can use wings to whatever dimensions. I really dunno how it would affect your DPN.

Wings are not offered yet because the F16 is still a realtively new class. Plus from a performance stand point I dont think they are an advantage, reason is because the leeward wing can dig into the water.

Jerry

There is no reason why you could not have a boat adapted to take your wings, you wouldn't be class legal with them on since as you say you would have more leverage than everyone else.

The other consideration is that with the extra leverage, you would place extra load on the boat, which may effect your warranty.


regards

john

Hi Jerry,

I have sailed extensivley against Hobie 17's with wings, especialy when I was sailing the Mosquito before spinnaker. In OZ most of the sailors on 17's where older gentleman who certainly enjoyed the comforts the wings provide, as you describe. I have always thought they would be a good boat to retire to.

But seriously, the 17's generaly only outperformed the Mossie in light winds so the wings didn't seem to allow them to apply more power in strong winds. By the way the Mossie is only 7'2' wide.

From my experience when you sail a optimised F16 they are already very wide and powerful, I realy don't think you need more. But the comfort factor is a whole different issue.

Regards Gary.

Jerry and all others,

The other post already answered large parts of your post. F16 rules does allow wings in racing as long as you have an equivalent width with regard to righting moment to "more normal" F16's. For recreational sailing or even open class sailing the F16 rules do not aply; here you can do what you want.

So why are wings limited for racing ? we want the boats to be equal and that means that we must draw the line on width somewhere and a equalizing formula. The current F16 class rule 1.2.3. provides this in the best way available.

So why didn't we keep the boat width at 2.5 mtr and allow additional wings reaching beyond the current equivalent width ? Thus keeping road trailing ability and still get more leverage ?

The reasons for that are twofold in general. It is too expensive for the expected return and it adds to the time rigging the boat before sailing.

The last is an important consideration for active racers. Everything adds rigging time, we already need to work out all fittings so they are quick to fix and release for there is alot of stuff on the F16's. Allow additional wings would be an extra item. In beach/water side parking most births are made to accept 2.5 to 2.6 mtr wide cats. Often you will need to take the wings off each time and store them or request (and get assigned) a custom birth.

In addition to this I don't think the builders are hot for it as it adds to the design and this makes the boats more expensive. Builders want simple boats and buyers want inexpensive boats, wings were not regarded to help either. Of course anybody who is willing to pay extra can get any modification implemented. Also wings are relatively heavy for the extra performance they give in strong winds. For example : 1 foot wide wings (30 cm) wings provide the same additional leverage as making the boat halve a foot cm wider in its beam. The additional weight of two (lightweight race) wings of 1 foot extra width will be in the order of 7 kg's at least while a wider beam of halve a foot will add only add about 0.7 kg (= 1/10th the added weight). Even if one made the beams stiffer to compensate for the extra width then the additional weight would be only 2 to 3 kg's.

So from a designers point of view wings are unattractive, especially on a lightweight boat like the F16's, here we just don't have a margin of 7 kg's to put into the wings. It is already a feature to get the boat down to 107 kg all-up weight. Especially with the current stiffness requirement for competitive racing. Designers really don't want to take 7 kg's out of something else and sacrifice stiffness and impact resistance just to have wings. Of course if you are willing to accept the weight penalty and cost penalty than any builder will provide your boat with wings. These things just make it unattractive to market the boat (class) to a large audience.

Maybe this could all be worth it if it would give alot of extra performance. Everything is a trade-off, remember. This however does not seem to be the case. Pretty much in light winds the wings are a disadvantage. For speed you need to lift your luff hull and weight out there makes this harder. Not even looking at aerodynamics. In medium winds the current width is still sufficient so you don't need wings here. In strong winds the seastate plays up and the current batch of F16's are already more limited in all out speed by things like minimum apparent wind angle and rig efficiency than by raw power. On reaches the current width of 2.5 mtr is already on the high side as you can push you bows down when fully powering up. On the downwind legs the current width is sufficient in all conditions. Any more width would only have you sail higher (worse VMG) to keep yourself out. So the only expected gain area is strong winds when going upwind and then mainly when solo sailing. The maximum net increase in speed was calculated as about 4 % on the upwind leg alone, about 2 % overall. A minute gain per hour bouy racing. In other conditions it would not add speed. Of course comfort plays a much smaller role on a race boat so we never included this in the analysis. Also we wanted to F16's to mirror the F18's in as much aspects as possible so racing them first in wins would be fair in teh broadest wind spectrum, Wings (when doublehanding) would only create a difference between the two setups. It was judged that this gain with the linked penalties in cost, weight, rigging time and level performance to F18 was too small to justify stimulating the use of wings in the F16 class rules. We did of course choose to allow them. Wings were not judged to be unwanted, but just unsuited to be actively stimulated in the optimal theoretical F16 boat setup that is underlying the F16 class rules.

Personally I have qualms about sailing under spinnaker in the strong stuff with wings. It is easy for a boat to heel noticeably here. The wings must be raised quite a bit to prevent them from burying. I found that under spinnaker you want the boat to be as simply as possible as you'll need all attention and control to make it work well in rough and strong conditions.

But anyway that was the analyses back then in late 2001. Now we just have to stick with these choices. I for one feel that we made the right choice here.

Of course; for recreational use you are totally free to do what you want just make sure that you can remove the wings (unless they satisfy rule 1.2.3.) before you enter a F16 class race. That is the situation now.

Wouter

Jerry,

Just a couple of points.
1) Sailing with wings adds a level of confort, and is very fun. Like driving an interactive video game as you have view of the whole boat from the extended perspective.

2) Adding wings places a whole other level loads on the boat. The F16 platform is light becuase extra material is removed. They are still fairly robust, as the design has not been taken to the extreme of something like the A-cats, but I would venture to say that the addition of homemade wings on any of the designs out there would cause problems. The ability to keep the boat at or near class minimums and provide wings all at a price someone would be willing to pay is another factor. The H17 or TheMightyHobie18 wings weigh very near what a whole F16 hull does.

3)The addition of wings provides very little if any improvement in total performance. It is only a factor in certain conditions and certain points of sail, all for the addition of weight, cost and complexity. Look at the TheMightyHobie18 and the TheMightyHobie18 magnum. There is no noticeable difference in those boats performance going around a course.

Jump on a light weight boat, with properly rigged sails and controls and you would be amazed at the control you can have in a huge range of conditions.

Matt

Matt, Wouter, John, Gary, Robi,

Thanks everyone for the input.

Regaring wings in racing:

I understand the reasons behind the choices made and respect them.

Regarding wings for recreational sailing:

I think one more factor not mentioned is that greater leverage can translate to better control, particularly when sailing singlehanded in heavier air/waves. Added control adds to enjoyment in these conditions. It also adds a margin of safety.

Regarding over loading the boat's structure:

I was a little concerned about the loads on the boat as you point out but but I guessed this would not be an issue for two reasons:

1) They would be directed through the main beams which is the strongest part of the hull

2) If used for only singlehanding (which is when they would be most useful and what I personally was interested in)I doubt the loads on the boat could even come close to to the loads generated by doublehanding without wings.

Regarding limited additional leverage:

I would agree that the additional leverage isn't huge, but I think the leverage I am getting is far greater than what you calculated Wouter. This is becuase the wings on the H17 extend closer to 18 inches beyond the hull sideways. Also, since they are raised, when the boat is heeled, the actual offset is greater due to the geometery. Lastly, I think that the raised wings would allow you to trap lower (getting more of your weight outboard) without dragging your butt in the waves furhter adding beneift in heavier air sailing.

Regarding burying wing tips in the waves/water:

Since the wings on the H17 are raised, I've never seen this happen. You'd have to be heeled so far that you're going over anyway. Now I've never sailed a lightweight cat with spi in heavy conditions so I really don't know if it would be more of a problem in those conditions.

Regarding setup time:

On the H17 you can put each wing on or take it off in about 10 seconds.

Regarding wing weight:

Well I haven't weighed them, but they're incredibly light (either that or I'm incredibly strong ).

For those of you who've never sailed with wings, you should try them before you discount them.

Jerry

I've sailed with them (raced even with them), also on a Hobie 17 just like you.


Wouter

My FX-One came with "sport wings" which extend 30cm outward on both sides, they're not as massive as the one's I had on my old H17 but still very effective.
http://www.hobie-cat.net/download/catalogue/gb/wings.pdf

-Additional leverage in heavy winds and when pointing with under spinnaker.
-In chop your feet dont get kicked/washed of the deck by waves hitting the hull at speed.
-When tacking you are able to power up more quickly since you can slide your (upper)body outward faster without worrying about sliding into the drink.
-Being slightly raised gives you a better view of the leeward bow, for me a very important aspect when blasting downwind.
-When sailing with a crew the helmsman can create extra leverage by sitting on them without actually being trapped out.

During Texel2005 I sailed on an FX-One without wings and missed those aluminum 9.0kg weighing things very much, the points mentioned above are not theoretical but are from actual experience. IMHO these things could easily be made from carbon to bring the weight down. Also a perfect solution for light crews...

Now THAT I do consider an advantage.

Well, who will take it upon him to pioneer these sport wings on a F16 ?

Wouter

Look out, Wouter may be a convert...

Be careful, you'll start on the sport wings and in 10 years you'll be sailing F16's on the bigger ones (while sipping lemonade)!

I'd definitely buy a set of sport wings!

Jerry

A number of good points have been made pro and con for wings on an F16, but for recreational sailing I don't want this topic to die without a little more discussion and debate.

Specifically, the concern has been raised that the F16 hulls/structure were not designed for wings and that they may be stressed by adding them. I countered that it would be hard to argue if wings were used while sailed double handed, but that it seemed unlikely to me that a singlehanded sailor on wings would stress the F16 anywhere close to what occurs when an F16 is sailed double handed without wings currently.

Wouter, can you run your magic with the numbers and compare these two scenarios assuming the wing offest is 1 foot (sport wings) vs 2 feet (comfort wings)?

My back of the napkin calculation is that increasing the righting force by adding one or two feet to the beam of the boat with one person aboard (and therefore the maximum possible stress on the boat) is less than the righting force generated by two people without wings.

Finally, I'm curious if there is likely to be any differnce in hull strength (and overall structural integrity) among the various F16 designs, ie, would the hulls of the Blade, Taipan, or Stealth be any stronger or better suited to be adapted with wings? This might be moot if singlehanding with wings loads the boat less than doublehanding without wings.

I want my MTV (wings)...

Thanks,

Jerry

You can forget wings. It's a whole collection of bad ideas.
#1: The real reason is that they would drag when you're flying the kite. The hull flies very high downwind under spinnaker. Leeward wing would drag and slow you down or worse.
#2: I love a winged boat, H-17 and H-18 but they really add a lot to weight and cost and no one with any sense is going to waste that kind of time and effort, and EXPENSE.
#3: F-16 is a growth class and you really are missing the point of it if you modify your boat off class specs. Why spent $12000 on a boat only to deliberately screw it up. Just furl the jib and be done with it if you're overpowered.
#4: F-16 was not designed for that, like the H-17's were. How many times have you flown a hull high in a puff and dragged a wing on your 17?
It's exciting but r e a l l y S L O W W W.
Even the Hobie 18 Magnum was an expensive experiment, a lot of weight was added just to be able to let an 18 fly solo. [color:"red"] [/color]
No room to add to the 230# weight of the F-16 without shaving it off somewhere important.
So enjoy your flight of fantasy, but I'd bet my Spinnaker Sheet that you'll never see one.
[color:"green"] [/color] [color:"purple"] [/color]
CARY
Team Centurion
TIGER 939 "Fun Ticket"

H-17 wings are 13 1/2 pounds apiece. Plus 4 pounds of water that lives down in the wing socket.
I always liked how the 17 wing socket tube would freeze in the winter and cause hull leaks or cracks.
CARY
Team Centurion
Tiger 939 "Fun Ticket"

Another reason for not having wings is that they need to be twice the width ytou loose in the boat by making it thinner for slightly less righting moment.

Consider an 8 foot wide boat, it has it's pivot about the leeward hull with no wings so you have an 8 foot pivot.

Make the boat 6 feet wide and you need to add 2 foot wings each side to get back to an 8 foot pivot. BUT you still are loosing out as the leeward wing is acting against you as it is the other side of the pivot.

Wings are not usually a good option.

I didn't notice it being mentioned yet, but one of the reasons I do not like wings for racing is that most beach-cats require you to get your weight far forward in light air to keep the sterns from dragging. Wings add weight to the aft half of the boat, making it even more difficult to keep the transoms out of the water.

And compounding the difficulty of getting weight forward is that you have to climb over the bar supporting the wing in order to get forward on the hull.

Unfortunately, most sailors in the United States do most of their summer racing in light-to-moderate wind conditions requiring a lot of fore-and-aft weight distribution movement. It's really tough to do with wings.

Well I appreciate eveyone's input but you all are looking at things strictly from a racing perspective which I specifically excluded from my more recent comments. I (and many others I suspect) would like wings only for recreational sailing to add to the verstatility of these boats. My desire is not to convince you that you should sail with wings if you don't like them or that they should be mandatory or used in racing. I certainly never suggested reducing the beam of a boat just to add wings! If it's a recreational OPTION then if you you don't like them simply don't buy them and it's no skin off your nose. To each his/her own.

With the added leverage of wings I've never lost control and over heeled thereby dragging a leward wing. The wings typically run from the main beam all the way back past the rear beam and this gives a wide range of hull trim options (and there's no reason to use wings in the light stuff - even leave them off the boat if you want). If they're an option then the additional cost would only apply to those who really wanted them. With wings that insert into the beams there's no issue with water wells, added water, and freezing. Like everything else in sailing, weight can be minimized - sport wings weigh much less than the larger wings. Wings are sold as recreational options for the Tiger and FX1 yet no one seems upset that these options are available for use when not racing these boats; they wouldn't be offered (in three versions no less) if they were'nt useful and in demand by many sailors.

My main question remains unanswered - will singlehanding with wings stress the hulls/structure less than doublehanding without them?

Thanks,

Jerry

Cary,

Regarding "just furl the jib and be done with it if you're overpowered" - with wings you have "reserve leverage" if you want it or need it so when you rig with a jib while singlehanding (for recreational sailing) and the wind comes up. On many F16's you don't have the option to just furl the jib out on the water. I actually don't know of any F16's that have furling jibs unless these are custom add ons. The Blade uses a battened jib so that would never be an option.

Regarding "modifying a boat off class specs" - well I really don't think you'd be doing that just by buying a set of wings that plug into the beams! Just pull them out and voila, class legal! I hardly think this would "screw up" the boat!

Regarding "No room to add to the 230# weight of the F-16 without shaving it off somewhere important" - no need to worry about a few added pounds if you're not using them while racing! I like racing as much as everyone else but it sounds to me like you think there's nothing else out there?

You said: "So enjoy your flight of fantasy, but I'd bet my Spinnaker Sheet that you'll never see one". Do you understand that many people don't race and/or both race and sail recreationally? Do you think that F16 boats do not apply to these people and the class shouldn't be inclusive enough to be attractive to them? C'mon, don't be a race bigot

Jerry

I dont think anyone would seriously consider those huge H17 style armchairs. However, the sleek sportwings are a great addition to any (somewhat overpowered) singlehanded boat.

As little as I know about construction I do think that sportwings, since they attach directly to the beams, do not put a great strain on the hulls like the H17 wings do.

http://www.thebeachcats.com/albums2/album139/IM000825.jpg
http://www.thebeachcats.com/albums2/album139/IM000827.jpg

Taipans have roller furling jibs as a stock item.

Jerry if you want wings for your F16 I think you will have to engineer them yourself. It is hard enough to get builders to consider an F16 I would assume it would be harder to get a builder to build wings.

But you are certainly correct about using them recreationally. I would think they would be an awesome add on for recreational sailing. If you do engineer any wings, I would interested in them, to even build them myself if posible.

Good luck.

Robi,

I believe your statement about the Taipan 4.9 having a roller furling jib as a stock item is incorrect. I know of only 2 boats that have one. I have a roller furler on my Taipan 4.9 but it is a custom add-on. I added it for safety and convenience. I wanted to have the option to roll the jib when the weather gets bad. It is also nice to roll it up in between races or on the approach to the beach. The only issue I have with it is the jib doesn't roll very tight because of the 2 short horizontal battens in the leach of the sail. Taipan 4.9 class rules say the jib leach battens much be horizontal.

Jennifer
Taipan 4.9 #262

I don't think adding wings to an F16 will encounter any limits in the way of load or stresses. Especially not if they are secured directly to the beams.

I think the bets option would be to just copy the FX-one wings. These seem light weight and sufficient.

Personally I'm not very much interested in wings but I would love to see some-one give it a try.

Wouter

I will never give any garantees without running all the numbers on such an additions in detail. Besides the original builders of these boats will undoubtably have something so say about this and warranty. But Having said that, if I were to add wings to my own boat (hypothetical situation) then I would probably not even bother doing to math on what my beams and hulls would take and only do the math on the design of the beams itself. If you catch my drift here.

Wouter

Jennifer I stand corrected then.

Thanks everyone for your input and the lively discussion.

I do think that adapting the Hobie sport wings would make the most sense, and also would be a relatively low cost option compared with the larger wings which use more tubing and use seats made out of tramp material.

It should be possible to copy the sport wings but I wonder how far off the Hobie sport wings might be from fitting the various F16's.

Tony - would you mind measuring OD of the sport wings tubing that inserts into the beams and the center to center distance between the main beam and rear beam? Are the beams round? Do the wings mate directly with the ID of the beams or is there an insert/adapter that makes the connection? Are they held inplace by a spring action/friction like the H17 wings or is there some kind of detent that locks them in place? Finally, what did you pay for the sport wings? Thanks for your input.

Does anyone have beam ID and spacing data for any of the F16's so one could get an idea "how far off" the Hobie sport wings might be?

It may not be for everyone but it would be great if someone could try it and share their experience with everyone. If it's feasible I'd certainly consider giving it a go. But I'd like my boat builder to agree that if used properly (ie, singlehanding only) that it wouldn't void the warranty!

Thanks,

Jerry

Jerry,

You're right to be cautious, but you should be fine if only used for single handing. The thing to worry about is the rig, rather than the hulls or beams - assuming you can find some decent way to attach the wings to the beams.

Wings have the ability to increase your righting moment. The maximum force in the rig is limited by the fact that as the power increases, the moment of the rig will become equal to your righting moment, and the boat will start to tip over. The more you increase the right moment, either by becoming heavier, or by moving further away from the leeward hull, the greater the force in the rig before it starts to heel.

On the back of an envelope: when on the trapeze on an F16, your centre of gravity is about 11 foot from the leeward hull. Add a 1 foot wing and trapeze off it, and you'll increase your moment by less than 10%. Put a crew on the trapeze with you without wings, and you'll increase your moment by 100% - so I think you should be safe in 1-up mode.

Failure to do these calculations can be expensive, though - I've seen the remains of a Hobie Pacific mast after it was taken out 3-up in a force 6.

Paul

A good rule of thumb for righting moment is :

Righting moment RM = 0.5 * boat width * boat weight + (boat width + 1) * crew weight

The formula uses SI units, so meters and kilograms, if you want to do it with feet and pounds then replace (boat width +1) by (boat width + 3) (this a rough approximation)


The results are :

F16 sloop two-up with 150 kg crew

RM = 0.5 * 2.5 * 107 + (2.5 + 1) * 150 kg = 133.75 + 525 = 658,75 = say 659 kgm



F16 sloop two-up with 150 kg crew and 1 foot wings (=0.3 mtr by 5 kg each)

RM = 0.5 * 2.5 * 117 + (2.5 + 1.3) * 150 kg = 146.25 + 570 = 716,25 = say 716 kgm = 8.6 % more than standard F16

Is comparable in righting moment to putting a 166 kg crew on the wire of a wingless F16

RM = 0.5 * 2.5 * 107 + (2.5 + 1) * 166kg = 133.75 + 582.5 = 716,25 = say 716 kgm = 8.6 % more than standard F16



F16 uni one-up with 80 kg crew

RM = 0.5 * 2.5 * 104 + (2.5 + 1) * 80 kg = 130 + 280 = 410 = 37 % Less than standard sloop 2-up F16


F16 uni one-up with 80 kg crew and 1 foot wings (0.3 kg by 5 kg each)

RM = 0.5 * 2.5 * 114 + (2.5 + 1.3) * 80 kg = 142.5 + 304 = 446.5 = say 447 kgm = 32 % Less than standard sloop 2-up F16 and 9 % more than standard 1-up.


Don't make out too much aof 10 % higher rigting moments in the way of performance enhancements.

A good rule of thumb giving the UPPER limit to windward leeward gains is :

0.5 * (Sq.rt (new sail drive) - 1)

so

0.5 * (Sq.rt (110%) - 1) = 0.5 * (sq.rt (1.1) - 1) = 2.4 % or about 90 seconds per hour when doing everything else just right.

This is an upper boundery as increases in overall weight, windage and the fact that the relationship is "stronger" than a sq.rt take away from the gains.

Typically I use a power relationship of 1/2.5 instead of of the normal sq.rt that is a powerrelationship of only 1/2

So

0.5 * (110%)^(1/2.5) - 1) = 0.5 (1.1)^(1/2.5) - 1) = 1.9 % = 70 seconds per hour bouy racing when doing everything else just right.

This number I would use as a relatively accuracte estimations of the performance gain IN HIGH WINDS only ! Of course in all conditions where normal trapping of sitting on the luff hull is sufficient the winged catamaran will have no advantage at all, rather it is expected to be disadvantaged.

Wouter

Paul and Wouter,

Thanks for your confirming my cruder calculations.
It's always nice to see how the problem should be solved correctly!

Regarding limited performane gains, I suspect you are right, but then again that is only important racing (for which it would not be used). My experience with wings on the H17 for recreational sailing is that the reserve leverage they provide "feels" like much more than 10%; even if it doesn't let you go 10% faster, it feels like you have much more control in higher winds (almost like having a lightweight crew along).

Thanks,

Jerry