My question is as easy as which beach cat under 21' is the fastest? Obviously, some cats are especially fast under certain conditions, but taking an average of all conditions. Can the M20 claim the throne, or will the Eagle 20 put up a fight and even beat the M20? Any opinions? Also, what is the top speed of the fastest cats around? I see Marstrom claims the M20 to be good for 30 knots on his web-site. Is this an absolute max? Any opinions?
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Re: Which cat is the fastest?
[Re: jimi]
#52007 06/29/0507:43 AM06/29/0507:43 AM
It's going to be difficult to sort fact from fiction in this thread!
I would certain rank these as the fastest - although I would say that the Marstom 20 (there are two that race in the southeastern US) has not proven to be the performer we all expected it to be. 30 knots? While I think 30 knots is possible in a short burst (just before capsize) I don't think it is realistic to be able to sustain anything near 30 knots on any of these boats. I have not seen an Eagle in competition with other boats but I suspect that it might scare off the Olympic Tornado for outright speed. I have taken part in extensive racing between Nacra 20s and the Marstrom 20s and the Marstrom has displayed a moderate advantage over the Nacra (especially considering that it is about 1/2 the weight AND wider).
Olympic Tornado Carbon Eagle
Marstrom 20 Nacra 20
Jake Kohl
Re: Which cat is the fastest?
[Re: Jake]
#52008 06/29/0508:08 AM06/29/0508:08 AM
It strikes me that even though the M20 seems by the specs to be way faster than anything out there, there are quite a few who have the same impression as you Jake. Considering that Marstom has quite a bit of experience from A-cat sailing, one would expect the M20 to have a fast hull design. Being 30 kg lighter than the Eagle 20 should also give it an advantage. Still, you are not the first one, Jake, to be somewhat disappointed by its actual performance.
All though maybe not possible to sustain over a longer distance, 30 knots in a 20' cat is quite impressive!
Re: Which cat is the fastest?
[Re: jimi]
#52011 06/29/0508:22 AM06/29/0508:22 AM
There are many factors that make a beachcat fast! The most important [IMHO] is crew execution, sails available and their R&D that was put into them and the built in abilities [hull design, dagger vs center, carbon mast with or with out rotater, self tacking jib, etc. that the boats designer put into the boat. And finally the crew weight/bouancy factor in as well. You can go to any major regatta and see the latest hot boat finishing in the middle due to anyone of these factors.
For example when I bought my Tornados from Sail Craft in 1973 I thought I was fast until I saw Reg White [British Gold Medalist]sail a T about 100lbs heavier right past me. I caught a severe cold from him blowing my doors offffff...
Another example is the SC20TR Roberts sails. Is that boat that much faster or is Roberts that good a sailor. I think its the latter.
Its takes competition to reach a boats full potential. If you sail mixed classes the fastest design boats mistakes are exponential to that of the slow boats because the ratings don't take everything [sailor/crew skill, crew weight, etc.]into account mainly because there isn't an absolutely accurate way to do that.
Basically fast guys will make any boat go well.
thom F25c 009 ARC22 2234 FMS 20 57
Re: Which cat is the fastest?
[Re: jimi]
#52012 06/29/0508:30 AM06/29/0508:30 AM
Keep in mind fastest as in top speed is not the same as speed around a course. For example, at the right wind angle the Hobie 16 is fast or for another the Tornado's top speed is limited by lift on the stern driving the bow under.
For top speed look at the speed runs made in England. I don't know if anyone is currently running them.
For speed around a course, it mostly depends on the skill of the driver and how well a boat is developed.
Re: Which cat is the fastest?
[Re: jimi]
#52013 06/29/0508:40 AM06/29/0508:40 AM
Here is a story, I hope its not too long. I used to be in motorcycles. There was a gentleman at a dealer one day bragging about his new Z1000 (this was years ago). It just so happens that a manufacturers rep was there. Naturally a challenge was thrown down. The rep took a bike of almost equal size (a few cc's smaller even) and they took to the road. Well the rep blew the Z1000 away. Then he suggested they switch bikes. He beat him again!! So the moral of this story is and it has been proven again and again, each boats potential is determined by its occupants skill. Thats why in a mixed race you will almost always see some of the "smaller" boats beating the 20's boat for boat. Its not that the boat is faster, its who can make it go fast.
So, my suggestion is fwiw, get something you like and learn to sail it as best you can. Most of all, have fun. Otherwise its like a job you despise, you won't want to go there anymore.
Peace and fair winds, Clayton S27 (size does matter!) I can carry more beer!
Re: Which cat is the fastest?
[Re: bvining]
#52015 06/29/0512:43 PM06/29/0512:43 PM
in theory you can just look at the ratings figures to get your answer. i wouldn't be surprised if the various ratings systems do not agree however. also the wind and sea conditions will have bearing on the answer. for example the tornado seems to be the fastest heavy weather boat around a course which has shoals, whereas some of the other boats are optimized for more moderate conditions and all deepwater.
Re: Which cat is the fastest?or Fastest Degree
[Re: bvining]
#52017 06/29/0505:21 PM06/29/0505:21 PM
Is every single cat the same in that there is a point off or into the wind it is, its fastest. ? Oh last year up at Gilligans was'nt there someone who logged 40mph on his gps in that storm with a Hobie 17
Re: Which cat is the fastest?or Fastest Degree
[Re: BobG]
#52018 06/29/0505:39 PM06/29/0505:39 PM
I would like to rephrase the question, which cat under 20', given same crew skills, same wind- and weather conditions, is the the fastest? Undoubtedly a tough question to answer, but surely someone one the forum has any opinions.
Re: gilligans
[Re: jimi]
#52021 06/30/0505:48 AM06/30/0505:48 AM
I would like to rephrase the question, which cat under 20', given same crew skills, same wind- and weather conditions, is the the fastest? Undoubtedly a tough question to answer, but surely someone one the forum has any opinions.
Well it's between the Supercat 20 Tall Rig, the Eagle, CFR20, Marstrom 20, Inter20, and the Tornado.
Given under 8 knots I'd have to go with the light boats or the Supercat. In the heavier stuff I'd go with the Tornado.
Fact is nobody on this continent has seen the Eagle yet. So it's hard to have an informed opinion. My guess is it will run about like the CFR20 and Marstrom 20.
I'd like to see a race with some of the best sailors between the three light boats. It's never happened to my knowledge. So everything else is speculation as to which is faster.
All the laws of physics still apply, the only variable is hull shape and most of them are now pretty close to the same (long and skinny). So at 20', the lightest boat with the most sail area and a wide platform to control the power in a blow (most righting moment), should be the fastest boat. The rest is up to the sailors.