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Which cat is the fastest? #52006
06/29/05 07:32 AM
06/29/05 07:32 AM
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Trondheim, Norway
J
jimi Offline OP
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Trondheim, Norway
My question is as easy as which beach cat under 21' is the fastest? Obviously, some cats are especially fast under certain conditions, but taking an average of all conditions. Can the M20 claim the throne, or will the Eagle 20 put up a fight and even beat the M20? Any opinions?
Also, what is the top speed of the fastest cats around? I see Marstrom claims the M20 to be good for 30 knots on his web-site. Is this an absolute max? Any opinions?

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Re: Which cat is the fastest? [Re: jimi] #52007
06/29/05 07:43 AM
06/29/05 07:43 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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It's going to be difficult to sort fact from fiction in this thread!

I would certain rank these as the fastest - although I would say that the Marstom 20 (there are two that race in the southeastern US) has not proven to be the performer we all expected it to be. 30 knots? While I think 30 knots is possible in a short burst (just before capsize) I don't think it is realistic to be able to sustain anything near 30 knots on any of these boats. I have not seen an Eagle in competition with other boats but I suspect that it might scare off the Olympic Tornado for outright speed. I have taken part in extensive racing between Nacra 20s and the Marstrom 20s and the Marstrom has displayed a moderate advantage over the Nacra (especially considering that it is about 1/2 the weight AND wider).

Olympic Tornado
Carbon Eagle

Marstrom 20
Nacra 20


Jake Kohl
Re: Which cat is the fastest? [Re: Jake] #52008
06/29/05 08:08 AM
06/29/05 08:08 AM
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Australia
macca Offline
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Australia
Super Taipan


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Re: Which cat is the fastest? [Re: jimi] #52009
06/29/05 08:13 AM
06/29/05 08:13 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 623
Gulf Coast
tami Offline
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The one Randy Smyth is driving.


Re: Which cat is the fastest? [Re: Jake] #52010
06/29/05 08:22 AM
06/29/05 08:22 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 87
Trondheim, Norway
J
jimi Offline OP
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Trondheim, Norway
It strikes me that even though the M20 seems by the specs to be way faster than anything out there, there are quite a few who have the same impression as you Jake. Considering that Marstom has quite a bit of experience from A-cat sailing, one would expect the M20 to have a fast hull design. Being 30 kg lighter than the Eagle 20 should also give it an advantage. Still, you are not the first one, Jake, to be somewhat disappointed by its actual performance.

All though maybe not possible to sustain over a longer distance, 30 knots in a 20' cat is quite impressive!

Re: Which cat is the fastest? [Re: jimi] #52011
06/29/05 08:22 AM
06/29/05 08:22 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
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Dallas, Texas
thom Offline
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There are many factors that make a beachcat fast! The most important [IMHO] is crew execution, sails available and their R&D that was put into them and the built in abilities [hull design, dagger vs center, carbon mast with or with out rotater, self tacking jib, etc. that the boats designer put into the boat. And finally the crew weight/bouancy factor in as well. You can go to any major regatta and see the latest hot boat finishing in the middle due to anyone of these factors.

For example when I bought my Tornados from Sail Craft in 1973 I thought I was fast until I saw Reg White [British Gold Medalist]sail a T about 100lbs heavier right past me. I caught a severe cold from him blowing my doors offffff...

Another example is the SC20TR Roberts sails. Is that boat that much faster or is Roberts that good a sailor. I think its the latter.

Its takes competition to reach a boats full potential. If you sail mixed classes the fastest design boats mistakes are exponential to that of the slow boats because the ratings don't take everything [sailor/crew skill, crew weight, etc.]into account mainly because there isn't an absolutely accurate way to do that.

Basically fast guys will make any boat go well.

thom
F25c 009
ARC22 2234
FMS 20 57




Re: Which cat is the fastest? [Re: jimi] #52012
06/29/05 08:30 AM
06/29/05 08:30 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
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Houston
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Houston
Keep in mind fastest as in top speed is not the same as speed around a course. For example, at the right wind angle the Hobie 16 is fast or for another the Tornado's top speed is limited by lift on the stern driving the bow under.

For top speed look at the speed runs made in England. I don't know if anyone is currently running them.

For speed around a course, it mostly depends on the skill of the driver and how well a boat is developed.

Re: Which cat is the fastest? [Re: jimi] #52013
06/29/05 08:40 AM
06/29/05 08:40 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
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Atlanta
Upwind the A cat is the fastest.

Nil's A cat with spin will compete with the M20 and Tornado for fastest up and down.

Bill

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Last edited by bvining; 06/29/05 08:47 AM.
Re: Which cat is the fastest? [Re: tami] #52014
06/29/05 11:37 AM
06/29/05 11:37 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 975
South Louisiana, USA
Clayton Offline
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South Louisiana, USA
Here is a story, I hope its not too long. I used to be in motorcycles. There was a gentleman at a dealer one day bragging about his new Z1000 (this was years ago). It just so happens that a manufacturers rep was there. Naturally a challenge was thrown down. The rep took a bike of almost equal size (a few cc's smaller even) and they took to the road. Well the rep blew the Z1000 away. Then he suggested they switch bikes. He beat him again!! So the moral of this story is and it has been proven again and again, each boats potential is determined by its occupants skill. Thats why in a mixed race you will almost always see some of the "smaller" boats beating the 20's boat for boat. Its not that the boat is faster, its who can make it go fast.

So, my suggestion is fwiw, get something you like and learn to sail it as best you can. Most of all, have fun. Otherwise its like a job you despise, you won't want to go there anymore.

Peace and fair winds,
Clayton
S27 (size does matter!) I can carry more beer!

Re: Which cat is the fastest? [Re: bvining] #52015
06/29/05 12:43 PM
06/29/05 12:43 PM
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

Upwind the A cat is the fastest.


The standard A-cat would beat the M18 and category 1 18sq's upwind, you think ?

Think again !

Besides the name of the game is "reach the finish line first" NOT "reach the A-mark first" !

For the remainder I agree with the statement that there are really only "fast crews" that seem to excell on almost any catamaran given to them.

Also I don't believe any 30 knots claim for a 20 foot cat or smaller. I think the top speed clocked anywhere up till now is 25 knots.

If I have to point to a singlehand I would would say Eagle 20 Carbon in sloop attire

Wouter



Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Which cat is the fastest? [Re: jimi] #52016
06/29/05 02:56 PM
06/29/05 02:56 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
jollyrodgers Offline
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maui
in theory you can just look at the ratings figures to get your answer. i wouldn't be surprised if the various ratings systems do not agree however.
also the wind and sea conditions will have bearing on the answer. for example the tornado seems to be the fastest heavy weather boat around a course which has shoals, whereas some of the other boats are optimized for more moderate conditions and all deepwater.

Re: Which cat is the fastest?or Fastest Degree [Re: bvining] #52017
06/29/05 05:21 PM
06/29/05 05:21 PM
Joined: May 2003
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BobG Offline
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Is every single cat the same in that there is a point off or into the wind it is, its fastest. ? Oh last year up at Gilligans was'nt there someone who logged 40mph on his gps in that storm with a Hobie 17

Re: Which cat is the fastest?or Fastest Degree [Re: BobG] #52018
06/29/05 05:39 PM
06/29/05 05:39 PM
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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I clocked 110kph = 59 knots with my GPS last saterday while sailing my cat.

I don't believe that reading either. We all know how undependable instantanious GPS speed readings are.

Show us the track with at least 60 second before and after that measurement showing 40 mph and I will show you a very suspect speed increase (drop)

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 06/29/05 05:40 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
gilligans [Re: Wouter] #52019
06/29/05 11:24 PM
06/29/05 11:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
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I was there, I think he posted that speed as he was catapulted into the air when the storm blew through.


craig van eaton
Supercat 20
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Re: gilligans [Re: cyberspeed] #52020
06/30/05 05:26 AM
06/30/05 05:26 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 87
Trondheim, Norway
J
jimi Offline OP
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jimi  Offline OP
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Trondheim, Norway
I would like to rephrase the question, which cat under 20', given same crew skills, same wind- and weather conditions, is the the fastest? Undoubtedly a tough question to answer, but surely someone one the forum has any opinions.

Re: gilligans [Re: jimi] #52021
06/30/05 05:48 AM
06/30/05 05:48 AM
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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Mine still stand as stated above


Jake Kohl
Re: Which cat is the fastest?or Fastest Degree [Re: Wouter] #52022
06/30/05 09:20 AM
06/30/05 09:20 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 81
Chicago, IL
CatWoman Offline
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Is it still the Tornado Sport and /or the Marstrom 20?


CatWoman
Re: gilligans [Re: jimi] #52023
06/30/05 09:54 AM
06/30/05 09:54 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
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Quote
I would like to rephrase the question, which cat under 20', given same crew skills, same wind- and weather conditions, is the the fastest? Undoubtedly a tough question to answer, but surely someone one the forum has any opinions.


Well it's between the Supercat 20 Tall Rig, the Eagle, CFR20, Marstrom 20, Inter20, and the Tornado.

Given under 8 knots I'd have to go with the light boats or the Supercat. In the heavier stuff I'd go with the Tornado.

Fact is nobody on this continent has seen the Eagle yet. So it's hard to have an informed opinion. My guess is it will run about like the CFR20 and Marstrom 20.

I'd like to see a race with some of the best sailors between the three light boats. It's never happened to my knowledge. So everything else is speculation as to which is faster.

Mike Hill
www.stlouiscats.com


Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Re: gilligans [Re: Mike Hill] #52024
06/30/05 10:11 AM
06/30/05 10:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Roberto (Semp Toshiba) was putting together his custom built Eagle in Florida earlier this year.


Jake Kohl
Re: gilligans [Re: Jake] #52025
06/30/05 10:34 AM
06/30/05 10:34 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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All the laws of physics still apply, the only variable is hull shape and most of them are now pretty close to the same (long and skinny). So at 20', the lightest boat with the most sail area and a wide platform to control the power in a blow (most righting moment), should be the fastest boat. The rest is up to the sailors.


Blade F16
#777
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