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resurected B CLASS rules outline discussion #55840
08/24/05 12:32 PM
08/24/05 12:32 PM
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MI
sail6000 Offline OP
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We may have the best luck resurecting the original B CLASS , as Mary noted the original B CLASS is no longer in existance and it does seem a resonable approach and one that most catsailors world wide are familiar with .

The A CLASS has undergone many additions and revisions over time to its original basic box rule outline that has resulted in an excellent class with very fast designs of all types , our mission should be much the same .

The B Class was specified as being a maximum of 20 feet long, 10 feet wide and with a sail area of 235 square feet maximum including the mast. The area of the mast being measured as its length multiplied by half the girth.

Here is an excellent link to the T history that developed from the B class .
http://www.aussailing.com.au/tornado/Other/History.htm

Updating the B CLASS rules to include the T and all other existing 20s including the lighter weight newer versions should be outlined . Length and beam are established at 20 L and 10 ft beam , weight and sail area are the other two sides of the box rule to be set . Added top and bottom box rules may also be added as most Formula classes specify in great detail .

opinion > boat weight based on the Marstom 20 weight . 231 LB
LINK --http://www.boatshow.com/M20-Marstrom.html

The Marstom 20 has a 34.5 ft mast height = 10.5 meters
and 22M mainsail in large sq top high aspect shape
= to 236 sq ft main .

The T has roughly = 235 sail area in main and jib
and a 270 sq ft spin .

The T weight is 376 LB that is 145 LB more .

What is the solution to the boat weight to sail area variations to form a class . Main only for lighter weight category then jib area added for those over a certain weight along with larger spin size ?

or another potential equalizing rule of a total boat plus crew weight of 650 lbs which would reqire a min 275 LB Tornado crew weight plus 376 boat weight to = 651 LBs
The Marstom weighing 231 LBs would require a 400 LB crew plus 20 LBs of corrector weights to equal 651 LBs IE

JUST two potential class racing solutions .

suggestions -opinion >>
thanks








Last edited by sail6000; 08/24/05 01:34 PM.
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Re: resurected B CLASS rules outline discussi [Re: sail6000] #55841
08/24/05 03:43 PM
08/24/05 03:43 PM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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I was beginning to wonder where you had gone Carl

I think equalization rules are out of scope for a box rule. It complicates matters a lot, but doesnt neccesarily level the playing field. Differences in weight between crews are compensated by different sailcuts in the Tornado class, seems to work well there. I dont think this boats will be underpowered, so it should be possible here as well.

I am a bit ambivivalent on a minimum weight, as I would like the most boats to be able to measure in. More boats are always fun, we need as many as possible if this shall fly. The other side of the matter is making the boats affordable. Marstrøm's boats are perfectly engineered, autoclaved, pre-preg wonders with super-low weight, but horribly expensive.
Having a sensible minimum weight, that allows homebuilders to build plywood boats and manufactures to build without autoclaves and pre-preg's sounds like a good idea to me. The critera is that the boats still should be light enough to have high performance.

I suggest 130Kg's as minimum weight. I have recieved confirmations from competent persons that this is suited both for plywood construction and manufacturing for a boat with jib/mainsail.

If a boat is below minimum weight, corrector weights fixed to the mainbeam should be allowed to solve that.

I think minimum boat weight and a sensible spi-area is all that is needed.

I dont have the faintest idea how many boats will race and be buildt under these rules, but it should be interesting nontheless (I have some plans about a project boath).

Re: resurected B CLASS rules outline discussi [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #55842
08/24/05 04:17 PM
08/24/05 04:17 PM
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sail6000 Offline OP
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Hi Rolf

I should have been racing but was in Northern Michigan , the Petosky -Harbor Springs area on a cottage design project , took my sons so we also got lots of great fishing, hiking, boating ,etc in .

Sounds reasonable -130 kilograms is equal to 286.60 pounds (avoirdupois)

A Marstrom weighing 231. Lbs would add 55 LBs to race equally in B Class.

The existing T weighs 376 LBs = 90 LBs more , is that a problem ,and would racing against 100 LB lighter boats make all Tornado's non competitive.

The weight at 286 Lbs may fit some requirements or planned cat designs but also make some obsolete.

Perhaps 286 Min weight with some sail area factor added for boats over 350 Lbs, that brings the next topic of sail area into play .

The Marstom has a 34'5 ft mast height .-The T 32 -the M has 22M mainsail of 236 sq ft --the Tornado has a main plus jib of 235 sq ft .

What sail area is ideal and what sail configuration -
main only -main plus jib -spin area -masthead spin ? 3/4 rig ?

A larger main of 236 may be ideal per M design , The T could upgrade to a similar size main , then use in addition it's jib to compensate boat weight.

A larger spin as well may also be considered.

The only other variation is a design formula rule like Am Cup uses .-An equation that included Length Beam Weight and sail area = xxx B Class number , the Texel rating power formula would be the base model but modified for B Class purposes, just a suggestion for discussion.



Last edited by sail6000; 08/24/05 04:18 PM.
Re: resurected B CLASS rules outline discussi [Re: sail6000] #55843
08/24/05 06:53 PM
08/24/05 06:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote
The existing T weighs 376 LBs = 90 LBs more , is that a problem ,and would racing against 100 LB lighter boats make all Tornado's non competitive.


Ya Think??

A Few thoughts.

The T and the US I20 are close in performance now. You should be able to get racing going at a regional level even up... if not... a slight handicap correction might be needed. No matter... the goal would be regional racing. eg. Catfight.

I don't think I would be travel any distance to race an M20 even up with my T. I saw what Robbie and Eric did to the open fleet around a buoys course in light air on the protype M20.. It's a fight between a guy with a gun and you with your knife... The outcome is usally certain.

Seems to me... that you have to judge how much interest is there for expensive lightweight 20's. So far, Hobie has a prototype carbon 20, Marstroms has the M20, Eagle has their E 20 and perhaps a US Blade 20. I would construct a box rule that captures these boats and not worry about the T and the I20.

IMO, the rule is not the crucial factor... Rather it's where and what kind of racing will occur. EG... If you hold a high profile race for X type boats... X type boats will be built and raced. It may also be too late here. Mitch and Herbie are building their gran prix series with a big cat. In the USA, the Renyolds 33 is going for the same niche. Seems to me that unless this new F20 has an Olympic standing... It may be too late if the market and interest is sudenly skewed to the maxi cats.

Interesting as always.
Take Care
Mark















crac.sailregattas.com
Re: resurected B CLASS rules outline discussi [Re: sail6000] #55844
08/25/05 02:21 AM
08/25/05 02:21 AM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

A Marstrom weighing 231. Lbs would add 55 LBs to race equally in B Class.


The M20 doesn't weight 104 kg (231 lbs) anymore but rather 120 kg (265 lbs). The 104 kg boats had too much issues. So 130 kg (although this is still quite light in my opinion) seems to be reasonable from a M20 perspective. 10 kg corrector weight is not too much.

Quote

The existing T weighs 376 LBs = 90 LBs more , is that a problem ,and would racing against 100 LB lighter boats make all Tornado's non competitive.


Not over night. The M20 for example is still having issues staying ahead og I-20's and tornado in quite a few conditions. Eventually the Tornado will be passed by the new boats but that will take several (if not many) years of succesful development.

wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: resurrected B CLASS rules outline discussion [Re: Mark Schneider] #55845
08/25/05 08:03 AM
08/25/05 08:03 AM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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Mark, I dont think the T will be uncompetitive put up against the other boats that can be build within this box rule, for the first years at least. The reason the T is so fast, is the incremental refinement and olympic class development that have taken place the last 30 years. Having the best sailors in the world doing sail development and finding 'go fast' techniques makes the T hard to beat. That's why the T is the 20 footer benchmark and the boat to beat (still the benchmark, that's why I refer to it).

As Wouter says, the M20 have gained some weight, and given some other courses then straight upwind/downwind (e.g. distance races) it might be less than the optimal platform (especially with additional corrector weights to bring it up to 130kg's).

When that have been said, part of the fun (in my opinion) in a box rule, is to see what's fast and whats not. If the Tornado is blown away, so be it (but I have a hard time thinking it will be, even if other boats weight less. It's just so optimized).
The current lightweighters are carbon boats, and possibly pre-preg/autoclaved, hence the cost. My reasoning for having a minimum weight is to allow lighter boats than the current F-20 while still making allowances for homebuilding and economic construction. If you dont put a price on your own time, a homebuildt with a resirculated rig/equipment should be quite affordable (this is part of the attraction to me).

The suggested Box rule should encapsulate all the boats you mention, but some of them will need corrector weights.


Your last comment is very interesting. Who will build and race boats under such a rule? 40 foot cats, R33 etc. are big and expensive boats, both to buy and keep competitive. My vision is that this is a class for a somewhat heavy "Joe Average" who wants high performance and the room for some experimentation, to race both round buoys and on distance races.

If some decent prize money are put up, the Olympians will come, either on T's or something else they believe in (who can get a sponsor like, Volvo, so we can put on something like the "Volvo Champions Race", http://www.volvocars-aktionen.de/vcr/home.html).

Carl: Regarding sailarea. I agree with what Wouter said earlier, the solution is not neccesarily to put up more area, but to get the ratios right. The old rule that just defined sailarea is a good one IMHO, let every designer/builder decide for themself wether they want an unirig or a sloop. Need to decide on a sensible spi-area tough, even if it has been demonstrated that larger spi's are not neccesarily faster.

I dont like having correction factors or time adjusters within a box rule. First over the line should be the winner, and no whinning

Re: resurrected B CLASS rules outline discussion [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #55846
08/25/05 08:33 AM
08/25/05 08:33 AM
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MI
sail6000 Offline OP
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Great posts Wout -Mark & Rolf ,-agree .

Staying TRUE to the basic original B Class in very simple box rules outline should be the goal.

The trend currently in Formula classes is to define and limit nearly every aspect of cat design. Conversely it is important to develop concepts and advance the engineering based art of sailing craft design and have a competitive class and racing events to race within.

basic specs are a 20.1 FT LENGTH -10 FT BEAM -
280 LB min BOAT WEIGHT . 240 SQ FT SAIL AREA -270 SQ FT SPIN

The big question --what other limitations or rules should be listed the most controversial being -1-ANGLED BOARDS OR ADDED LIFTING FOILS
2 SAIL AREA CONFIGURATION-main only,-or jib - spin hoist height ,rigging configuration, and materials limits-CF etc
3 WINGS allowed on lesser beam designs .

My experiences in racing the Tybee 500 this year with lots of help from SAILMAX and a great person to sail with- Jake have been wonderfull adventures mixed with great racing legs of up to 120 miles in a day .
But my interest has been waining I think because I,ve raced 8 Worrell 1000s and tybee 500s on N 6/0s and 5 or 6 on Inter 20s ,--It's just time for something new
I think there are numerous potential sailing teams that feel the same.

Would any like to propose a set of B Class rules ?
thanks

Re: resurrected B CLASS rules outline discussion [Re: sail6000] #55847
08/25/05 10:03 AM
08/25/05 10:03 AM
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Wouter Offline
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you guys best formulate what you want to do with the boats.

For example : an ultimate distance racers has other requirements than the ultimate bouy racer.

Personally I think that lightweight on a 20 footer is a case of diminishing returns. Pretty soon you are sailing on a pair of needles with lots of wetted surface area.

But anyhow a mast height limit could be a smart rule to have. This appears to be a really "pain-in-the-neck" item if it can't be standardized and produced in numbers.

and there are other common considerations like that.

And as I wrote some years back. Don't let yourself get swayed away with wide open rules that will, on its own, gravitate towards the optimal setup after several (or many) experiments. This is simply not going to happen. Everybody loves extreme experiments untill they have to build one of these themselfs. End result, no experimentation, and most will just look for a different class.

The trick is to gether all the past experience and harnass this known potential in the class rules while leaving enough room for gradual refinement and improvement.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 08/25/05 10:05 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: resurrected B CLASS rules outline discussion [Re: Wouter] #55848
08/27/05 11:42 AM
08/27/05 11:42 AM
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sail6000 Offline OP
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Hi wout

You may be thinking of the C-Class with its 25 ft hull length and 14 ft beam plus 300 sq ft wings or larger cat racing classes

http://www.morrellimelvin.com/playstation/index.html

Damn -this happens evey time I ask others to propose rules outlines ,

I'll give it a shot and propose some B CLASS basic rules outline .

Just one " I told you so comment " to those that own I-20s and numeous others 20s , the prediction was if the F-20 class concept did not recieve support from sailors and builders it would result in further decline in the numbers of racing sailors and add yet another dead boat class .

Guess what ?

I think the restoration of the B Class may have more universal appeal and hopefully help the cat racing scene .

racing class rules creatingly definingly at your service
Carl



Re: resurrected B CLASS rules outline discussion [Re: sail6000] #55849
08/27/05 08:57 PM
08/27/05 08:57 PM
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South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
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Are we talking 10'max beam or 8'6"?

Last edited by arbo06; 08/27/05 08:58 PM.

Eric Arbogast
ARC 2101
Miami Yacht Club
Re: resurrected B CLASS rules outline discussion [Re: sail6000] #55850
08/28/05 02:38 AM
08/28/05 02:38 AM
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Wouter Offline
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Quote

You may be thinking of the C-Class with its 25 ft hull length and 14 ft beam plus 300 sq ft wings or larger cat racing classes



No Carl, I'm really not thinking about the C-class. Quite the opposite actually. You have completely missed the point I was trying to make.


Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: resurrected B CLASS rules outline discussion [Re: arbo06] #55851
08/28/05 10:53 AM
08/28/05 10:53 AM
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sail6000 Offline OP
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Hi wout
just joking with you a little by posting the link to Playstation .
Most any designer can explain why length translates to higher potential speed in seas it where it makes the most difference in the 16 to 20 ft cat design range, though many design factors enter the bigger pic to shape fast safe seaworthy craft .

Last edited by sail6000; 08/28/05 11:13 AM.
Re: resurrected B CLASS rules outline discussion [Re: arbo06] #55852
08/28/05 11:04 AM
08/28/05 11:04 AM
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sail6000 Offline OP
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Hi Eric

{Are we talking 10'max beam or 8'6"? }

10 though Some have already suggested as per 16 s that a lightweight cf or alum wing be allowed on 8.5 beam boats that would equal the total 10 ft beam crew position , 18 inch wings on ea side or just race within.

The 8.5 beam cats will be at a disadvantage in above 10 mph conditions ,but could add the wings dependant on forcast for the race event.

I raced the H 21 in the Prosail and Ultimate Yacht race events in 88 . They have great wings which were fun and made trapping horizontal to the water for maximum crew weight use and leverage applied very easy as well as providing a great spin block lead location out wider for more open slot and better sheeting angles .

The other option would be a B classs 8.5 beam category that was scored as a class but all raced together.
The A class does this for older heavier designs .

Re: resurrected B CLASS rules outline discussion [Re: sail6000] #55853
08/28/05 01:10 PM
08/28/05 01:10 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline
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Hi Folks

How many days are the Tornado events in the EU and Australia? In the US... the Tornado's (Olympic guys) won't do anything short of three days and usually 2 events running back to back with a one day break in the middle.

I plan my season around breaking the boat down and rebuiliding it for weekend races. The 10 hours of breakdown, build, Race breakdown build, for 8 hours of racing on your average weekend usally isn't worth it. (Especially when this estimate does not include travel time)

Seems to me that for an F20 class to succeed... you will need a schedule that people ... just have to do! (presige, competition, venue, prize money, fun factor etc) For Example Texel is one of those kind of events. Otherwise, the market will have to focus on the trailerable weekend racer. Which gets you back to the question... How much better then an I20 do you have to build to get people buying boats and racing them.

Mark





crac.sailregattas.com
Re: resurrected B CLASS rules outline discussion [Re: Mark Schneider] #55854
08/29/05 12:27 PM
08/29/05 12:27 PM
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sail6000 Offline OP
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Hi Mark

There are numerous existing solutions to trailering ,the tilt trailer ,etc

Other solutions are the fold up and the telecsoping crossbeams for trailering ease . Also several other potential easy fold up or breakdown design solutions may be applied.


Re: resurrected B CLASS rules outline discussion [Re: sail6000] #55855
08/29/05 01:48 PM
08/29/05 01:48 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Hi Guys

I am well aware of the tilt trailer solutions.
Greg Scace and Kevin Cook have the ultimate in tilt trailers... Boat is picked off the wheels and carried by its cross beams before it is flipped onto its back using an electric drill to drive the machinery. EG no heavy lifting required.

But... They still find it a bear to rig the boat for a weekend race. For your average weekend Hobie or CRAM or CRAC regatta ... you start aproaching the fun factor limit.

My only point is that you should keep in mind the types and durations of the events and realize that this F20 boat is more work then an 8' 6inch wide Nacra 20 or similar boat.

Take Care
Mark



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: B CLASS rules outline discussion [Re: Mark Schneider] #55856
08/30/05 07:55 AM
08/30/05 07:55 AM
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sail6000 Offline OP
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Appreciate the input ,thanks Mark , it would be great to hear from those you mentioned and that are very active with 20s and boat construction .


Re: B CLASS rules outline discussion [Re: sail6000] #55857
08/31/05 08:58 AM
08/31/05 08:58 AM
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phill Offline
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Folks,
Please take my follwing question in the positive manner of it's intent.
When you are looking at a set of Formula class rules I think you need to look at the market segment for which you wish to cater.
The rules must provide something that the existing formulas do not. This must be provided in a manner that is attractive to the people you want to be involved.
I see this as a prerequisite to being successful.
So would you mind giving me some insight into the intended target market. Who do you want to sail F20?
Would it not help to identify the target market and then look at what rules would best suit that market.
Hopefully then the F20 class will be successful in attaracting people from that segment of the market.
Just the way I see it.
Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: B CLASS rules outline discussion [Re: phill] #55858
08/31/05 10:24 AM
08/31/05 10:24 AM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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By all means Phill, please let us know what you are thinking.

Re: B CLASS rules outline discussion [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #55859
08/31/05 04:47 PM
08/31/05 04:47 PM
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sail6000 Offline OP
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Yes please do, and please do not worry about offending any . We have thick skins and the priority is getting a B class /formula 20 going and are open to all interested sailors suggestions.

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