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Re: B CLASS rules outline discussion [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #55860
08/31/05 05:03 PM
08/31/05 05:03 PM
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Rolf
I may have it all wrong but I thought the target market was the heavier sailor. If this is the case does a 10ft wide boat cater more for the heavier sailor than the lighter sailor?
Now if the segement of the sailing scene being targetted is not the heavier sailor it may be a good thing provided you can find people that are willing to put up with the inconvienience.

But once you add the hassle of the wide beam you imediately segment your potential market and loose those who don't have mast up storgae and don't want the hassel. While the boat may be great to sail it may not ever be mainstream because you loose so much of the potential market before you start.

Now if your looking at just a line honours boat the wider beam would help meet that objective.
But before deciding on the rules I thought it would help ensure success if some consideration was given to who you want to sail the boat. To further build the sport and not just rob sailors from other classes it would be best if the target is not currently being catered for in the current Formulas.
This is just what I'm thinking. I hope the final rules are a combintion that works and makes the F20 a mainstream class.
Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

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Re: B CLASS rules outline discussion [Re: phill] #55861
09/05/05 01:24 PM
09/05/05 01:24 PM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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I agree on several points Phill, but not all

One thing is what I personally want, and another is what's best for a new class.

My priorites are, in order:
1: A thrilling and fun boat to sail
2: A distance racer
3: A buoy racer

Now, I have several sub-categories for each category what this really encompass for me, but I am pretty sure that I personally want a 10 feet wide boat. We was out sailing our T yesterday, with max downhaul and travelled out 10 cm while beating and still was overpowered. We weight in at about 200Kg with gear. A lighter crew on the same boat would really have their hands full, and the same for a heavy team on a less wide and lighter boat.

I still think this class should be best suited for somewhat heavier sailors, who can use the extra power and bouancy (180-200Kg's). Agree fully that it's no point in cannibalizing other classes.

I agree that max trailering width is a big issue for a class. Do you have any idea for how the percentages are between mast-up storage and trailering? I seems like a lot of sailors in the US trailer their boats, while mast-up is more common in Europe.
Whats the price difference between a simple tilt-trailer and a regular trailer fitting a 8'6" wide boat?

What's your personal opinion on the wings/racks idea? Would that equalize the playing field somewhat between 8'6" and 10' wide boats? The less wide boat would have an advantage until the 10' wide boats could go out and double trapeeze, but then what? It seems like this is the greatest issue, there haven't been many comments on mast-height, sailarea, foils, materials etc..


Rolf

Re: B CLASS rules outline discussion [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #55862
09/06/05 09:47 AM
09/06/05 09:47 AM
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sail6000 Offline OP
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Hello

Missed some of the thread , was out of town and moving the office to another part of the building here.

Phil made sence , as always .

The lightweight bolt on wings aspect for the 8.5 beam boats will need to be included ,and also some solution to trailering or an easier assembley or fold up /telescoping mechanism applied for this proposed class to become widely popular .

The B Class is certainly a good foundation to build on .


Re: B CLASS rules outline discussion [Re: sail6000] #55863
09/06/05 04:19 PM
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OK, as I don't have any of the current 20 footers I can come from a position where I hve no buy into any class at present, so :

120kg - light but buildable without an autoclave ?
Width 10 foot / 3.1 M (the classic width = 1/2 length) ----- If you are worried about the hassle of rigging the thing at the other end; get up an hour earlier !!!!!

Mast hight 10.5 M
Mainsail 22sq M
No Jib
Kite 25; and why not make it mast head with a 2nd set of spreaders to hold the tip of the mast up....

No racks; they just qadd weight; When someone can build racks that are lighter than the difference in the 2 beams I'll buy them.




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Re: resurected B CLASS rules outline discussion [Re: sail6000] #55864
09/06/05 06:00 PM
09/06/05 06:00 PM
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Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
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Guys, I would forget about trying to wedge in the Marstom 20, Eagle 20 etc into this class. These are boats that don't really matter right now (because of the # of them out there)..They may in 10 years..

Just base the class on the T sport/Nacra 20/N6.0 and we have an instant class. I would make the minimum boat weight 380lbs, not less. 10' beam sounds reasonable
Dave

Wings and Distance Racing [Re: sail6000] #55865
09/07/05 02:24 AM
09/07/05 02:24 AM
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Folks,
I'm curious regarding the use of wings on cats in distance racing. Anyone have any relavent knowledge of better experience.
It strikes me a set of wings where the leeward one folds up could be quite helpful in combatting fatique without any real negatives. Interested in the views of others. [color:"blue"] [/color]

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Wings and Distance Racing [Re: phill] #55866
09/08/05 07:12 PM
09/08/05 07:12 PM
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South Florida & the Keys
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I think the advange of wings is obvious, however, are current boats designed to handle additional loads?


Eric Arbogast
ARC 2101
Miami Yacht Club
Re: Wings and Distance Racing [Re: arbo06] #55867
09/09/05 05:22 AM
09/09/05 05:22 AM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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Phill, by the resounding silence I guess there's not much experience around about distance racing cats with wings (why does this sound a bit similar to "pigs will fly" ). "Cat's with wings, flying mandatory".. Ok, I'll put a leash on my sense of humour from now on!
Was there any cats with wings or racks in the 'experimental' Worrel races?

Simon, as far as I can understand racks aren't that bad an idea. Yes, the racks will add a bit more weight compared to 4 more feet of beam extrusions (or carbon, what do I know what people will build). What's important tough is the righting moment (RM).
A 10 foot wide cat will have an advantage in RM as hull weight comes 1 foot further out. A typical hull will perhaps weight around 35-40Kg's (??), so this is not a large advantage. Another point is that the axis for heel is a bit further out on a 10 foot wide boat compared to an 8 foot wide one. But by adding a 2foot rack on each side, you are able to move your bodyweight out just as far as the 10 foot wide boat and this is what's most important. In addition, the boat with rack's have the mast further to leeward, which gives a better weightarm for your creweight. (I haven't done the math, so I might be totally off and wrong). In addition, the 8 foot wide boat can get up on one hull earlier, which gives about 20% less drag and better windward abilities with the "new" hullshapes..

(Ok, now I have really done it. Talked myself into actually liking the tought of a 8 wide boat with racks)

I think your envelope is a bit to wide and expensive, we will probably not have much success in building such a class (it becomes to expensive and time intensive for most). Loosing the jib is probably not a good move for a distance racer, but might be smart in a pure upwind/downwind machine.
I had the same opinion as you earlier on, but after spending some time on it and receiving comments from others I have reconsidered. Now I think it's sensible to stay within the B-class envelope, limit mast height to 9.5 meters, weight to min. 140 kg's and 50 square meters of sailarea max. There is still plenty of room for experimentation if someone wants to tinker with their boat.

Dave, I think the current 20 footers are to heavy. I recieved some opinions in a PM, and one of the major philosophies lined out there was that minimum weight for a class should be based on a set of plywood hulls. I think thats a very good idea, as plywood hulls are something everybody with the inclination can build at home during winter. And if it can be buildt in plywood, manufacturers can achieve the same properties with composites. The stellar example is the Taipan4.9 class where timber boats are just as competitive as glass/epoxy boats.


Re: Wings and Distance Racing [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #55868
09/09/05 08:40 AM
09/09/05 08:40 AM
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Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
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Hi Rolf,
Yes there were boats in the Worrell with racks/wings. Yes, perhaps the 20 footers that are around today are too heavy..not disputing that, but like someone else said.. [color:"red"] no one will bring a knife to a gun fight[/color] ...ie, no N20, N60, T sailor is going to race straight up with an M20 or Eagle20. So, they just won't show up.

So, how many boats do you want at a regatta? 1 M20, or a bunch of Ts, N20s, N60s, etc?

I guarantee that all or even some of these guys are not going to rush out to get an M20 or Eagle 20 just to race in a class where there are no competitors. Over time, people will of course buy/build lighter boats, and as they do, if there are enough we start a new class for them, or if they are more than 50% of the boats out there, then change the existing class rules.
my 2c
Dave

Re: Wings and Distance Racing [Re: pitchpoledave] #55869
09/09/05 01:34 PM
09/09/05 01:34 PM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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Dave, the M20, Eagle20 etc. dont fit within the envelope I suggest. The Tornado does, and I believe the N20 and N6.0 does as well (I am uncertain about their mastheight). Retrofit wings, or dont, and go out there and race them.
However, I have had it explained to me that the N20 and N6.0 race formula already, and that this class is large enough to be self-sufficient and have good racing. Hence, I dont see this happening and I dont want to interfere with what seems like a good class.

The envelope I suggest have a minimum weight about 20-25kg's less than the current Tornado, and that's a lot of 'tire wheels' around the hips for sailors around 35-40years and upwards.

I agree with you that nobody will rush out to race in a non-existent class, and there is no point in cannabalizing on other classes, so I would like to see a class for sailors a bit heavier than the competitive sailors on the current 20 footers (like me). A powerful sailplan on light hulls generally demands a heavier crew. In very light winds a lightweight crew can be really fast on such a boat, but when the wind rises a bit more, a heavy crew can sail in circles around the lightweights.
As I see it, (and as you imply) it's the old "chicken or the egg first" problem. But I would like to hammer out some rules as I belive the time is ripe, instead of waiting for the boats to come first. I believe the F-16 class set the rules first, and then the boats came (Yes, they had some very good ideas, like racing formula racing one-up or two-up and a larger base of old boats to build on, like the Taipan4.9 and Mosquito). What we discuss here might just turn out to be a wasted effort and a lot of hot air which nothing comes out of, but what so (I sure hope nobody sees this as a threat, or are damaged/hurt just by us discussing this. Or even if there are some boats buildt to the formula)?

Of course, my initative and interest in this has nothing to do with the fact that I have all rigging, rig, equipment, crossbeams, sails etc. from an old Tornado lying in storage, begging for some new action on a set of higher-performance hulls..

Do you know who I could contact to learn more about how the winged boats did in the Worrel and what kind of configuration it was?

Re: Wings and Distance Racing [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #55870
09/09/05 02:38 PM
09/09/05 02:38 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
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MI
sail6000 Offline OP
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Yes , I raced the Worrell 1000 in 87 , there were several custom boats with wings . Some were 10 ft on each side

If you do the math a 200 LB crew * 10 ft = 2,000 ft lbs of added leverage .

A better example of the type of wings we may be talking about are found on the older Hobie 21s . We raced those in 1988 in PROSAIL and the ULTIMATE YACHT RACE EVENTS , at locations around the country , prize money , TV etc ,it was great fun .
The H-21 wings plugged into the hulls and were really great to sit on and much easier to trap out of , it was easier to get horizontal and use all your weight to advantage . The wings also made excellent spin block locations further outboard for more open sheeting angles between mast and spin.

Mystere also made a series of optional wings and racks for its cat line . I don't currently see them though -
http://www.multypass.com/nos_catamarans.htm

A team in latter Worrell race built foldable racks , the problem was they would fold up at the wrong time as you tryed to get out on them . Perhaps why we don't see foldable racks .

2 ft added to a 8.5 ft beam cat would equalize overall I think give hull weight etc . Let me know what you think .

If any has more specific questions on wings or racks ,or earlier 1000 mile cat design innovations please just ask , always enjoy talking cat design concepts .

enjoy --happy sailing
Carl

Re: Wings and Distance Racing [Re: sail6000] #55871
09/09/05 04:42 PM
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Rolf,

Quote
Phill, by the resounding silence I guess there's not much experience around about distance racing cats with wings (why does this sound a bit similar to "pigs will fly" ). "Cat's with wings, flying mandatory".. Ok, I'll put a leash on my sense of humour from now on!
Was there any cats with wings or racks in the 'experimental' Worrel races?

Simon, as far as I can understand racks aren't that bad an idea. Yes, the racks will add a bit more weight compared to 4 more feet of beam extrusions (or carbon, what do I know what people will build). What's important tough is the righting moment (RM).
A 10 foot wide cat will have an advantage in RM as hull weight comes 1 foot further out. A typical hull will perhaps weight around 35-40Kg's (??), so this is not a large advantage. Another point is that the axis for heel is a bit further out on a 10 foot wide boat compared to an 8 foot wide one. But by adding a 2foot rack on each side, you are able to move your bodyweight out just as far as the 10 foot wide boat and this is what's most important. In addition, the boat with rack's have the mast further to leeward, which gives a better weightarm for your creweight. (I haven't done the math, so I might be totally off and wrong). In addition, the 8 foot wide boat can get up on one hull earlier, which gives about 20% less drag and better windward abilities with the "new" hullshapes..

(Ok, now I have really done it. Talked myself into actually liking the tought of a 8 wide boat with racks)

I think your envelope is a bit to wide and expensive, we will probably not have much success in building such a class (it becomes to expensive and time intensive for most). Loosing the jib is probably not a good move for a distance racer, but might be smart in a pure upwind/downwind machine.
I had the same opinion as you earlier on, but after spending some time on it and receiving comments from others I have reconsidered. Now I think it's sensible to stay within the B-class envelope, limit mast height to 9.5 meters, weight to min. 140 kg's and 50 square meters of sailarea max. There is still plenty of room for experimentation if someone wants to tinker with their boat.

Dave, I think the current 20 footers are to heavy. I recieved some opinions in a PM, and one of the major philosophies lined out there was that minimum weight for a class should be based on a set of plywood hulls. I think thats a very good idea, as plywood hulls are something everybody with the inclination can build at home during winter. And if it can be buildt in plywood, manufacturers can achieve the same properties with composites. The stellar example is the Taipan4.9 class where timber boats are just as competitive as glass/epoxy boats.



Sorry, I assumed eveyone had read my comments elsewhere regarding the righting moment issues of wings

as for your comments re getting the hull up ealier; surely people will just move to balannce the boat and so the hull comes up a the same point

Wings also add windage/spray barriers


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Re: Wings and Distance Racing [Re: sail6000] #55872
09/09/05 09:36 PM
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Carl,
I expect this has already been looked at but a boat with 2.5m beam and 700mm wings would be roughly equivalent in righting moments to a boat with 3.1m beam provided both boat's hulls weighed 30kg ea and had a 170kg of crew.

I like the idea of foldable wings.
I think they can be built quite light and as they can fold they can stay on the boat. If the fixed wings are anything like the ones on the Hobie 17 the wing design I was working on a few years back would be much lighter. Although the wings fold they would only fold up when you wanted them to. This would be achieved in the hinging mechanism. Pushing open the folded wing will unlock the folded out wing and fold it up at the same time.
Just playing around with some ideas hence my desire to get first hand info from someone who has used them.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Another cool thing about wings. [Re: phill] #55873
09/13/05 07:30 AM
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Folks,
If you were building a set of wings you could exend the wings past the back of the boat. At the end of the wings build in posiions for your feet. Better than trying to find a foothold on the rudder casting.
Would that make the downwinds an exciting spectacle, particularly the nose dives.
Maybe we could create the catamaran version of the 18ft skiff and chase TV coverage.

The wings need not be all that expensive. They could easily be made from carbon by anyone who was willing to give it a go. They would be folding and probably not weigh much more than 3 or 4 kgs ea.

It could be a lot of fun.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Another cool thing about wings. [Re: phill] #55874
09/14/05 07:33 AM
09/14/05 07:33 AM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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Simon, I dont think I have read what you wrote about wings earlier. Do you have a link?

Spray, yes. But thats a question of designs. As it is, we get quite a bit of spray and slamming from our aft-beams. With a new design, beams can be raised to avoid this and I am quite sure there will be some creative thinking about wings/spray/drag along the same lines as well.

When going to windward, it's my experience that almost nobody move around the boat to balance on one hull. There is some crew-movement in light winds, but after that most stay put on the windward hull or work on trapeezing (some hiking also perhaps). We did try sailing to windward while we moved about to balance the boat on one hull, but stopped as we were really slow. I guess moving about took to much concentration away from steering and trimming sails. We could not move fast enough to use small puffs either, but had to luff or dump power.


Re: Another cool thing about wings. [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #55875
09/14/05 02:21 PM
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Simon, I dont think I have read what you wrote about wings earlier. Do you have a link?

Spray, yes. But thats a question of designs. As it is, we get quite a bit of spray and slamming from our aft-beams. With a new design, beams can be raised to avoid this and I am quite sure there will be some creative thinking about wings/spray/drag along the same lines as well.

When going to windward, it's my experience that almost nobody move around the boat to balance on one hull. There is some crew-movement in light winds, but after that most stay put on the windward hull or work on trapeezing (some hiking also perhaps). We did try sailing to windward while we moved about to balance the boat on one hull, but stopped as we were really slow. I guess moving about took to much concentration away from steering and trimming sails. We could not move fast enough to use small puffs either, but had to luff or dump power.



It was in the F16 forum so you may not have seen it here


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Re: Another cool thing about wings. [Re: scooby_simon] #55876
09/14/05 02:51 PM
09/14/05 02:51 PM
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Thank you Simon.

I just re-read the thread, and as for righting moment it makes sense to me. I think the discussion omitted the point that a narrow boat will be able to fly a hull at lower windspeed tough.

Re: Another cool thing about wings. [Re: scooby_simon] #55877
09/14/05 06:09 PM
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Simon,
The point you make about the leeward wing acting aainst the righting moments is true unless it folds up. An additional consideraion is the windward hull is closer to the pivot on winged boat and this needs to be taken into account when dimensioning the wings. For the specific example I was using it amounts to the wing being 100mm longer. I have not done the numbers for a Tornado because the hulls are heavier than 30kg but it would be more like 150mm wider ie. 750mm wings on 2.5m wide platform to get the same outcome.
I would not consider wings unless they folded up and
the windage can be minimised in their design.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Another cool thing about wings. [Re: phill] #55878
09/15/05 05:53 PM
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Quote
Simon,
The point you make about the leeward wing acting aainst the righting moments is true unless it folds up. An additional consideraion is the windward hull is closer to the pivot on winged boat and this needs to be taken into account when dimensioning the wings. For the specific example I was using it amounts to the wing being 100mm longer. I have not done the numbers for a Tornado because the hulls are heavier than 30kg but it would be more like 150mm wider ie. 750mm wings on 2.5m wide platform to get the same outcome.
I would not consider wings unless they folded up and
the windage can be minimised in their design.

Regards,
Phill


Ok, maybe make them 755mm (OK I'm splitting hairs now) to account for the fact the mast is now 300mm more to leaward so you also loose a bit there and you now have the same righting moment as a 10 foot (3.1m) wide boat. BUT there is still the assumption that you can build the swing up wings for the same weight as 600mm from the front beam and 600mm back beam which I think you will be pushing very hard to do.

I looked at this a while back (when Carbon was V expensive) and decided it could not be justified. But now with the reduced cost, it might be worth it. (but then why not just go for Carbon beams!)

Making the wings swing has to happen; however as soon as you do this you then need to make sure that when they are down they stay down and locked fore/aft. Now this can be done, but adds some weight and/or string.

One very positive side in IMO is that you whould be able to design the wings in such a way as to be able to get the weight a little further back.


I still think there is a fair way to go yet with wing systems before we get any real gains.

Windage will always be a problem - more so than the front beam? - I'm not qualified to say. But the spray catching is a real problem even when the wings are in the up position - consider those times when you've had the bows under, the front beam under and some of the mainsail talking to the fishes too, would you really want some wing in there too (The wing MUST be attached / form part of the front beam as you'll want to get the weight forward too)



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Re: Another cool thing about wings. [Re: scooby_simon] #55879
09/17/05 08:22 AM
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Simon,
It all depends on the design of both the wings and the hulls. Also how the wings attach and pivot to fold up.

While I agree with many of your points I think there is a fair chance the right design could solve or significanlty minimise the possible drawbacks.

I think a well designed 20ft winged boat would have the convenience of a smaller beamed boat yet should also be a more comfortable, more exciting and therefore more enjoyable boat to sail.

The way I see it, you never really know until you give it a go.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

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