Stephen reported in the wildcat thread that:



It sounds like this is bothering a lot of cat sailors in Aus, and I for one am tired of hearing about it 3rd hand so I thought I'd start a separate thread on the subject (apologies to the rest of the world - this is very Australian oriented).

Some points:

1) The Mosquito class doesn't decide it's VYC handicap. Yachting Victoria's handicappers do this based on the results they get from clubs and regattas. They have no interest in giving the Mosquito a favourable handicap.

2) If you look at the VYC handicaps on the Yachting Victoria web site you will see that the standard Mosquito (cat or sloop) is one of only five cats that have a "Reliable" handicap (84). The adjustment made for the spinnaker is bigger than the VYC's standard formula and bigger than any other cat that has added a spinnaker. But this is realistic because being a slower and smaller cat than most the Mozzie gets more benefit from adding a spinnaker.

3) Those two Mosquitos at the Wildcat regatta last weekend represent the fastest Mosquitos in Australia - they were 2nd and 3rd at the last nationals and number 1 was no faster. Don't expect them to be easy to beat on handicap.

4) At the Wildcat regatta the winning Mosquito finished 1st in 4 races (4th & 5th in the other two), but if you add in the times of the Taipan 4.9 sloops (a separate division on the same course and start) he was actually beaten home in two of these races and only finished first in two races out of the six. Hardly a walkover.

5) Yachting Victoria apparently disagrees with the notion that the Mosquito with spinnaker has a favourable handicap since just last week they have raised it from 79.5 to 80 (back where it was 2 years ago).


Some examples:

In Feb 2004 I went to the Kurnell Cat Club regatta and won my division against Taipan 4.9 sloops and Nacra 5.8s - all to the tune of loud wingeing about the Mosquito handicap. After the event I combined the results of the other two divisions which had F18s, Tornados, and Nacra 14s. I could do this because we all sailed the same course. What I found was that overall I was actually placed only 8th. The sad fact was that my division was not sailing as well as either of the other divisions and I was first in the division, not because of my favourable handicap, but because the division as a whole was not sailing to their handicap.

Mozzies regularly attend a regatta in Twofold Bay where we sail against Hobie 20s, 18s and 17s and an occasional A-class. Since we have started using the spinnakers there has been grumbling about the handicap, despite the fact that on the water the Mosquitos are often among the first to the windward mark (no spinnaker required!). This just wouldn't be possible if all the boats were sailing to their handicap.

In the final race of the Wildcat Regatta last weekend the F18s, Taipan 4.9s and the miscellaneous division all started together (because some had gone home). The first Mosquito reached the first windward mark with only a couple of F18s and a couple of Taipan sloops just ahead of him. The rest of the "fast" cats shouldn't expect to win on handicap when they are starting a race from so far behind.

At McRae a couple of years ago some of the A-classes were outraged that the best Mozzies were actually finishing mid-fleet among the A-classes and with a huge handicap advantage as well. Well it sounds bad until you realise that the leading As were over a leg ahead and that they could actually beat the Mozzies on handicap. Why should an A-class that's obviously way off the pace expect to automatically beat a smaller (older) class on handicap?



In summary, it's easy to watch a mozzie with a spinnaker go past a Taipan 4.9 or an A-class downwind and then have a whinge about the Mozzie handicap. It's another thing to objectively look at regatta results over time and try to form an accurate idea of a classes optimum performance - like Yachting Victoria does. I'm not saying the Mozzie handicap is perfect and I don't think it should have gone back to 80 but the only positive thing we can do is to make sure Yachting Victoria receives copies of all regatta results so they can make the handicaps as accurate as possible, and get on with the sailing.

I'm in two minds with this issue. We had a lot of tuning problems on the Super Taipan at Forster and consequently our results were mixed, however it does appear that it's pretty easy to have a good result on a Mossie F16. Generally in mixed fleet racing you will see a bit more diversity in the winners accross differing conditions ie one wind strength will work to some boats performance envelope better than others.
I think I only had one race all weekend that I was happy with as far as the boat performance and our tactical decissions, that was the last race on the Sunday. We won over the line by miles but if I recall correctly it was close on hcp to the Mossie. The conditions were perfect for the super taipan in that race, we were fully powered up for the upwind legs and were the only boat to be fully powered downwind, the net result being that we beat the Tornado by a good margin and the rest of the fleet were way back.

I am in no way saying that the mossie sailors are not good but it appears that the hcp is leaning towards generous.

Hi Tim,
Now that you`ve opened this "can of worms", I`d like to know how to convert the VYC rating figures to ISAF, since that`s what we`re using in SA. If you can tell me how much time a Tornado (new rig), as well as F18 gives the Mozzie spi per hour of racing, and how much time you give the Hobie 16, I can then check how close the VYC rating is to the ISAF one and see how they compare. Of course one is based on recorded performance and one is theoretical, it would be nice to see how they stand up against eachother. All things being equal between our boats, I just need to know the all-up sailing weight of your boats (average between top 3 Mozzies) in solo configuration (since you mostly sail that way.), since our boats are actually quite a bit heavier than yours from the information I have - I`m guessing you are 85-90kg (solo) all up, whereas our boats are on 105-110kg in sloop rig setup. (We have bullet-proof sails, but they weigh quite a bit , and our platform weight is a few kg over min. weight.)
We are sailing off a ISAF rating of 1.14, yours would be a bit lower with a lighter boat, I can work it out if you send me that info.

Steve

The VYC Yardstick is measured from average results for a class over many regattas. With classes such as the A Class, F-18s and Tornadoes the top of the fleet are world champions and full time professional sailors. Those at the back end of these fleets if racing in another ‘less professional’ class would be showing good results in the other classes. The fact is that the average skill level in classes such as the A Class, F18 and Tornado are much higher than classes like the Mozzie, F-16, Maricat, Windrush, Cobra, Stingray, Nacra. Therefore if yardsticks are measured from average fleet performances, than a sailor of equal skill level will have a better chance in the Mozzie class for example than the A Class. Handicap racing is not perfect and also benefits different boats depending on wind strength and course. This is something that you should just deal with if you wish to race yardstick. Or you can go and play in OD or Formula fleets.

Just my 2c

Hi Stephen,
Have to agree - case in point, we give the Hobie 16 time on handicap based on ISAF system, theoretical based rating system based on boat specs (but you knew that).
With no less than 4 ex-Hobie world champs in our Hobie fleet we find it difficult at times to beat the first few over the line, never mind on handicap. That is why I prefer this rating method, it is based on boat specs and assumes the sailors are all equal, something you find out is not the case on the water !! Recently our top end of the fleet have been finishing ahead of the top Hobie 16`s, but not by enough time to win out on handicap every time - more often the top few H16`s correct out over us, so I think the rating is fairly accurate. As you said, on some days with the right course and wind, we run well away from them, but it doesn`t always work out that way. But when it does, it`s SWEEEET !!
Rating systems such as VYC or the US system rely on equal skill sailors in each fleet, as you said the top sailors migrate to certain classes which pushes their rating down while other classes may stay the same or even get a better handicap over time depending on who is sailing them.
Still I`m glad I don`t have to sail against Tim, Neil or Gary !! They just SOUND so damn fast

A little off subject - here`s a shot of Miles & Darren, our junior end of the fleet (16 years old), who recently won the 2nd leg of the Triple Crown, a series of long-distance races, were 3rd at the Brandvlei Longhaul, and came 2nd at Mozzie Nationals. I`m getting too old to sail against these guys !!
Steve

Wow Macca I love a good argument but you make it toooo easy.
That last race on the Sunday was no where near close, with the Mossies on yardstick. F16 Altered placed second on yardstick the Mossies placed around 5th. You where not the only one fully powered up so was Altered, as a result you and I took out 1st. and 2nd. as you say the conditions suited our boats but this was the only race in those conditions all weekend. The only other race close to those conditions was Mon. and I don't know about you but I went the wrong way and was beaten by Mossies because they went the right way.

But I have not blamed the Mossie Yardstick for being beaten by them, as like yourself my boat does not yet have a Yardstick, so I have no basis on which to complain as until I have a Yardstick I am only racing because of the goodwill of the other boats with Yardsticks. I know I have had queries from some A cat sailors as to how Altered can have ONLY the same H/cap as them, as I am sure some Tornado's have asked how your H/cap could be ONLY the same as thiers.

Also having raced against these guys in Mossies I know my boat is not as well sorted as thiers yet and from what you say niether is yours. I have seen these guys finish a lap ahead of other Mossies with spinnakers. There are about 10 racing with spin in Vic. not just the 2 you saw, which are also the best.

The only reason the Mossie. with spin. even has a Yardstick is because they wanted to do the right thing, so pro-actively sent every result they could get thier hands on to the VYC for over 2 years now. How many results have you sent? Believe me you can't rely on clubs to do it you have to make it happen if you want a Yardstick.

I certainly enjoyed the standard of sailing at Forster, I think you will find the Taipan4.9 sloops beat you on Yardstick nearly every race also, as they did me. The Taipan4.9's and Mossies gives us a level to work towards don't they?

Regards Gary.

Hi Stephen,

I don't agree with you on the above. From my experience, the couple of Pro sailors at the front are better but the average skill level in the fleets is not so different.

As for the back of those fleets showing good results in other classes, at Forster the Mossies where beating some Tornado's around the course and at other regattas have beaten the back of the F18 fleet around the course. So I would have to say your statement does not hold true through out the fleets you list as top quality.

I have changed classes many times over my 40 years of sailing, in both Internatinal and Australian classes mono's and cats and have heard statements like yours many times about classes other than those the sailor is in. From my experience the standard at the front of most classes is high, the main difference is the number of sailors in the class dictates the number of good sailors at the front, but the average sailing standard is similar across the fleet.

Regards Gary.

Hi Gary,

Take a look at the class line ups at local regattas for the 3 big classes (excluding H16 fleet which I am not that familiar with)….. A Class, F-18 and the Tornado to a lesser extent at the moment. There is a long list of top notch sailors from top of the fleet to 2/3 down the order with many of them competing at International level.

There will be a couple of exceptions but even the competitors at the tail end of these fleets would be capable of good results in the ‘less professional classes’. The 2 Tornado sailors that are mentioned for the record are very green, however very enthusiastic. But despite this, they would be lapped by most of the Ts racing in Australia.

I too have shifted between International and Australian cat classes from 14 foot to 20 foot. What I have noticed is that there is a difference in average crew skill between these classes and that the difference has never been bigger than it is in today’s age of full professional and semi professional sailors.

Below is just a quick list off names that come to mind in these classes…. Check out various regatta results for more.

A Class

Glenn Ashby
Steve Brewin
Scott Anderson
Greg Goodall
Dave McKenzie
Dave Brewer
Bruce McArthur
Tim Kirkham


F-18

Darren Bundock
Glenn Ashby
Steve Brewin
Greg Goodall
Mark Laruffa
Brad Sumner
Brad Collett
Mal Grey
Nev Thompson
Greg Wise
Tim Shuawlow

Tornado

Darren Bundock
David Hart
Greg Wise
Andrew Macpherson
Robbie Lovig
Marcus Towell

Are you guys telling me that all these crews who are sailing the quickest and latest are complaining their butts off about the performance of a 40 year old design after it was fitted a small size spinnaker (only 15 sq.mtr.) ! With even the A-cat guys joining in with respect to Altered !

I say a big round of applaus to that.

F16's continue building their reputation as giant killers.

Wouter

Not likely, not the top guys mate, they like myself could not give a rats. More concerned with racing class races.

The poeple you will here the noise from would be the ones that race mostly yardstick events and consider themself simular skill level to the guys in other classes which are a little more favoured with the handcap. And I do have to say, I can see there point.

I use to race my old plywood Dolphin cat and Maricat in mix fleet regattas years ago carring a favourable handicap due to the same reasons stated above...... Though I'd hardly call the boats "Giant Killers"

For me I can not see the enjoyment in performing in mix fleet racing. I would rather compete in a first across the line wins competition with simular classes.

Hi Stephen,
My guess is that the top level sailors you list will rarely be beaten by the "favourable Mozzie rating", unless the sailors on the Mozzies are of equal standing, except in cases where there are unreliable winds and the Mozzie sailor picked the side of the course with fewer holes or the right shifts.
As Gary said, if an A-class or T sailor is being beaten to the weather mark regularly by the Mozzies he needs to look further than the ratings to find his problem.
In the right winds I have been holding up well-sailed Hobie Tigers both up and downwind, but in other conditions they certainly have the edge on the Mozzie. (I`m an average weekend sailor.)
Just to consider the ISAF rating we sail off : In a 4 day regatta Tigers started 5 min. behind Mozzies and finished just ahead of lead Mozzies (1-2minutes) over races lasting 40 minutes. That translates to a rating difference of 14-17 points on ISAF system, yet Mozzies rating is only 13 points more than Tigers, so in fact the Mozzie sailors believe the Tiger rating is generous.
After all, you`re looking at a 40 year old design boat with a low aspect ratio pin-head mainsail that never drew this much attention until we added spinnakers !!

Steve

Just a personal observation concerning Yachting Victoria's current (2005-2006) published yardsticks.
Throughout 2005 the F14 association sent to the "yardstick coordinator" of YV all the official race results that the F14 competed in, some 17 odd races. This was done exactly as was instructed by the YV “Yardstick coordinator” during late February early March of 2005. The intention was that a suitable and accurate yardstick would be allocated for F14 cats for the 2005-2006 season, These results were of relevance to the VY also as they not only illustrated the overall performance of the F14 but, as there were many other classes featured within those results they would provide necessary information about other classes “performance” against each other for the assistance of verification or otherwise of their yardsticks.
When the “new” yardsticks were recently published there was not only no yardstick for the F14 but there was not even a listing itself for the F14, this in spite of the fact that the F14 association is legally and officially registered, incorporated, AND affiliated with Yachting SA, Yachting Australia and through them, Yachting Victorian.
I have been in contact with YV concerning this “oversight” and it would seem, at this stage, that there is the distinct possibility that there has been some sort of a “stuff up” with, not only the F14 information but possibly yardsticks of other classes for this coming season

I think the VYC yarstick system is a bloody joke and a shambolic mess. Darryl's post confirms that belief.

As a previous post mentioned, only 5 cat classes have ratings which are considered by VYC as "reliable", whatever that means. This is a clear admission by VYC that they have no confidence in their own ratings.

A performance based yardstick system would require a sophisticated analysis of data collected annually from several hundred races covering all classes and all conditions to be statistically significant. I seriously doubt if VYC has the resources to undertake such a task.

I'd suggest that the Texel system is a fairer and more robust alternatve for mixed cat racing in Oz. Give VYC the boot!

Phile

Hi Stephen,

it would be a wonderful thing if at all regattas we could sail just against our own classes. In Vic. Mossies are largest cat fleet at many regattas 10+ boats. But fact is those days are gone, Wildcat was a perfect example 3 Tornado's sailed in mixed fleet, 6 F18's should have. Where stuck with mixed fleets regardless of preferences, which means using VYC Yardsticks like it or not.

I love your list of sailors but even Glenn finds it hard to sail more than one boat at the same regatta. As far as sailors that are head and shoulders above the rest, it is realy not that long a list but I am not going to start listing them.

I guess part of what I am saying is that when sailing interstate handicaps are brought up more, because the sailors don't know each other that well and possibly don't offer them the respect that their standard of sailing deserves. Just ask many good cat sailors and they will tell you they sailed Mossies, but chose to move on for what ever reason, the standard in this class didn't dissapear with them they are still sailed to a high standard, in fact the same guy that use to beat them is still winning in cat rigs some 10 Nat. titles under his belt.

I can only realy comment on the Vics., not many on your list (partly my point). I know Glenn and Greg both sailed Mossies and could attest to the standard. To stop beating round the bush, I believe the guy's who sailed Mossies with spin. at recent Wildcat regattas are better than the average sailor you seem to be implying they are. However I know for a fact Glenn beats them on V.Y.C. I have no illusions they are that good.

Regards Gary.

Each to their own, but for me I choose not to 'like it' so I set out to do something about it. I was sick of racing against 2 may be 3 other Ts at local regattas and 7 Ts at National Championships. I therefore moved into a class that will give me the class racing...F-18. Now I can race against 6 to 10 + other F-18s at local weekend regattas with championships seeing 30 to 35 boats with the next Oz titles expected to reach the 50 mark.



Lets look at the fleets from last years Nationals in the F-18 and A Class.

A Class

1 G Ashby
2 S Anderson
3 B Collett
4 T Kirkham
5 D Brewer
6 D Mackenzie
7 M Philpott
8 M Johnston
9 G Hartbour
10 H Sinclair
11 S Scott
12 C Parker
13 S Lewis
14 B Hooper
14 M Vaccari
16 G Vize
17 B McArthur
18 D Ellis
19 S Breadon
20 D Blake
21 K Symonds
22 B Geisker
23 I Walls
24 N Carter
25 L Zylstra
26 B Medlow
27 D Godfrey
28 V Collett
29 N Caldwell
30 D Foran
31 J Dowling
32 G Kilminster
33 G Brown
34 P Sarant
35 P Bradbury
36 Kopp
37 A Vize
38 S Moser
39 M Kopp
40 R Nicholson
41 C Neeskens
42 D Elwers
43 J Goldsmith
44 P Neeskens
45 J Lennon
46 T Cochrane
47 N Rickaros
48 G Patterson
49 M Cowley

Formula 18

1 Glenn Ashby / Tim Kirkham
2 Greg Goodall / Liam Goodall
3 Michael Cook / Andrew Williams
4 Tim Shuwalow / Grant Rogers
5 Nev Thompson / Shamus Stevens
6 Mal Gray / Adrian Fawcett
7 Mark Laruffa / Jesse Dobie
8 Steve Brewin / Gary Gornall
9 Eric Cok / Anja Stoltenborg
10 Michael Cahill / Phil Cavanagh
10 Chris Caldecoat / Mat Fulton
12 Warren Guinea / Dan Williams
13 Chris Dean / Kennuth Hibbert
14 Danny James / C. James
15 Chris Brewin / Richard Brewin
16 Dan Corlett / Zac Seymour
17 Andrew McLeod / Bill Holton
18 Luke McMullen / Adam Beattie
19 Russ McDonald / Luke McDonald
20 Pete Skewes / Kingsly Pursch
20 Nick Green / Ian Wood
22 Rob Stewart / Wade Kruger
23 Jason Farnell / Andrew Hutton
24 Dean Nissen / Shane ?
25 Dave Elliot / C. Munro
26 Andrew McKenzie / Andrew Macpherson
27 Brad Nixon / John Nixon
28 David Bent / Ken McMachon
29 Bob Schahinger / Carina Cartwright
30 Tony Thorne / Leigh Thorne
30 Andrew Holden / John Lizzio
32 Michael Burdack / Mat Kurl
33 Brad Owen / Scott Polchleb
34 Jarrod Wallis / Callan Bunt

Pretty impressive list of sailors with guys who have represented at an International level or won World Championships at the top down to mid fleet.



I did not say at all that these 2 Mossie sailors were not good sailors. But look at it in perspective. Just where would they figure in the results of these fleets. Would you say mid fleet. ???? If so, you would expect that the mid fleet to top guys in the F-18 & A Class would be at the top of the fleet in the non International Oz classes such as the Mossie class. Would you say that most of the guys in the lower part of this fleet would be mid fleeting in the Oz Class fleets. Many of these Oz Class fleets also act as feeder classes and have a percentage of the fleet that are quiet green to cat sailing.

Taking all this into account, how would you compare the “AVERAGE” skill levels in these fleets.

For the record also, my definition of an average to good sailor are those who make up the guts of these highly competitive fleets (f18 & A). Very good to Great sailors to me are those who have graduated through classes with excellent results and have move onto representing their country at an International or Olympic level with respectable results. If you look at these 2 classes…… You will see quiet a few past and present representatives as well as top placed finishers to World Champions.

Anyway that is my little rant and I do not mean to offend anybody by what I have said…… This all started with a light humoured comment that I made in another thread after hearing some talk on the beach. I know what to expect form handicap racing and take it for what it is……

Steve, have some pity with us who worship catamaran racing in catamaran 'terra incognito'. (dont take the following to seriously, we are having fun and that's our main goal)

If we dont race our T on handicap, we can either race one-design "Snipe" in a three boat fleet, Laser with the nearest fleet 560km away or 12.5kvm monos 80km away + 35minutes ferry (http://www.125kvm.no/)
Sailors in this country are generally so traditional, that they mistake our T for a "Hobby cat", as they call it (Hobie 16).. There is not even a F-18 fleet forming up here!

I agree fully with you, first over the line is most fun and better for your sailing skills. But we have a saying here in Norway, "When the devil is hungry, he even eat flies".
I prefer being on any starting line vs. no starting line when those are the alternatives.

I think a sailor who mostly sail on yardstick will have the same cutthroat instincts as a one-design sailor, and a wider tactical experience with slower/faster boats (witch translates into slower/faster crews). But the yardstick crews might lack some top-end speed and pointing vs the one-design crews.
At least, those are the experiences we have made when going to other T fleets to get our.. "behinds" kicked (and boy, did we have them kicked the first time we went to Germany with no other experience than handicap racing and 3 year old sails).
If you dont have other similar (like formula) boats around to tune and develop technique with, it takes much longer time and demands more effort to become fast than if you can race in a one-design/formula fleet.



Just my opinion..

Hey guys whether we like it or not we need a system of handicapping!
It would be nice, in a way, if all boats sailing were of an equal enough design that we could all sail for “first over the line wins”, that would simplify the job of race committees enormously. Similarly, it would also be nice if everyone sailed the same “class” OD, for the same reasons, and both of these scenarios would satisfy that age old question –who is the best of the best sailor-, but that is just not the way it is!
This argument of comparing top sailors from one class to top sailors from another has never really held up under the light of objective scrutiny, at its very best, it is “highly subjective” to the extreme.
To say that “this” sailor is better than “that” one, simply because the first has sailed (successfully or not), at more geographical diverse events, particularly internationally, is no true measure of either sailors “ability” and to call any sailor who competes only at his/her local club, a “weekend warrior”, is some thing that I find elitist, derogatory, and definitely no accurate description of that weekend sailors true abilities.
Personally I have witnessed many (weekend) sailors, over many years who have had more “natural sailing ability” than many of their more “recognised” counterparts who have sailed internationally, even up to Olympic standard, but due to circumstances that we all are aware of (finance, time, social situation, etc) the so called weekend warrior has never gained the same publicity/recognition, (and most likely never wanted that sort of notoriety anyway). Apples should only be compared to apples.
So for that large majority of sailors, who sail on all those vastly different types of catamarans, at hundreds of clubs every race day, where they are often lucky if they have the pleasure of competing “head to head” against even one other of “their” own class of cat, I say thank goodness for a handicapping system that, although, by the very nature of handicapping, can never be “perfect”, at least it is a far better way of “fleet” competition than any realistic alternative that I have ever heard of.
The one true thing that is common to all of us, and deserves our greatest respect of each other, is that we are not “Hobie” people, or “Tornado” people, etc, we are all members of an age old brotherhood of sailors, and that means something that only those of us “who go down to the sea in ships” can fully understand and appreciate.

That's ok Stephen, I know your original comment was only meant to be light humoured. I just thought there is a lot of this sort of talk going on and it would be good to get it out on the forum, because it's an interesting topic and, of course, because I suspect that the comments about the "Favourable Mosquito handicap" are based more on rumour and knee-jerk reactions than fact. I've enjoyed reading the reactions the thread has provoked.

Unfortunately, if you sail a Mozzie, the better you sail the louder the complaints about the handicap get - we are expected to sail badly so we can fit the percieved profile of a Mozzie sailor.

Your list of names from the A-class and F18 fleets illustrates quite well what Gary said about the assumption that can be made about people from other classes (and interstate) that they are "nobodies" (or just average sailors). You are obviously quite impressed with the names you listed (right down to mid-fleet), but I have to tell you that there are only a handful of names in each list that I recognise and, of those, I've seen some of them have significant "bad days" on the race course!

It would be great if we all sailed the same class and could forget about handicaps, but I'm afraid A-classes, and F18s are not within everyones budget, and like Gary said, if you live in Victoria the biggest cat class at regattas these days is usually Mosquitos.

Just to add some more fuel I've posted the Wildcat race results and overall scores of the miscellaneous division with the first Taipan 4.9 Sloop added for comparison, on the Mozzie Web Site here.

Nice post Darryl.

Well said Darryl,

maybe it's something you have to live in the "southern states" to understand.

Regards Gary.

[/quote]Stephen said,

"Each to their own, but for me I choose not to 'like it' so I set out to do something about it. I was sick of racing against 2 may be 3 other Ts at local regattas and 7 Ts at National Championships. I therefore moved into a class that will give me the class racing...F-18. Now I can race against 6 to 10 + other F-18s at local weekend regattas with championships seeing 30 to 35 boats with the next Oz titles expected to reach the 50 mark."


Stephen your use of numbers is somewhat selective, you forgot to mention that F18 Nationals this year had only 25 entries. Followed up by the Wildcat "considered by some to be the top mixed cat regatta in OZ" with only 6. It's a tall order to expect 50 F18's at the next Nats. But I will be happy to be proven wrong, we will have to wait and see.

But as far as your list of competitors go, it is as I was saying a matter of perspective, as a Vic. who travels interstate more than most I still struggle to recognise 10 names in each fleet. Which doesn't mean they are not good sailors but the regattas any of us compete at influence who we know, but that doesn't make them better sailors.

Anyway I have enjoyed this argument it's a bad habit of mine. Certainly hope nobody's taking it to seriously.

Regards Gary.