So you are in agreement with me.

In addition can a 75 kg person still right the discussed boat unless it is really windy ? If you are doing the wild-thing you may find that you can easily tip a boat in conditions qualifying as less than windy.

Also I hold all boats to the same judging rule, no exceptions, and it is beyond a doubt that the different boats score differently on this criterium.





I don't know about that. The EU I17 has more singlehanders sailing in front of it then behind it; don't know wether that still is sufficient to earn the qualifier "One of the quickest". I'm sure the newer versions like the 17R and sorts are noticeably faster and I always mentioned that.





Were did I write that the I-17 was "bad" in the way of "Robustness and resistance to abuse". I never wrote a thing like that. That maybe your reading of my post but I never wrote that down, nor intended to. You can't fault me for this.


Wouter

Sorry so you can or can't right the F16 single handed wind or no wind?

That question can only be answered when we know your body weight.

Wouter

Hola FLying Cat,

...well, I watched long enough..

...happy holidays to all my cat friends,...both sides of the pond...

....as you know, we sail all year round in the Caribbean, but our regatta season is starting now, Aruba was the first,..and we run up until after Easter......there are more regattas that a working man can go to,..so, you pick th ebest venue for you and your boat.

...so, a F17 is CHEAPER than the Tiapan?

...wow....

...how do they do that?

...is this the new F17?.....carbon mast,...redesiged d-board ( read....shorter,..see, Nacra read Catsailor forums too..).....new boom,...and all?

..ok, big question Flying Cat,......what is your wind and waves like?

..I am assuming that 'down under' you are not lake sailing in 5 knots and 1 inch waves,.....yes?

..here, it is 15-25 mph, and waves 3 feet +/- 1 foot(,..in the ocean, 3 foot wave is 3 feet up to crest, then another 3 feet down, to trough,..so, 3 + 3 is 6 foot verticle drop, ok?). I will do a 4 footer, and a 5 footer ( maybe) if I cannot avoid it ( certian reefs and shallows or currents will build some monsters, I identify the area and stay away). Waves 6 - 10 ( which is verticle dimension of 12 - 20 feet) forget it,...the boat can take it, but I can't, I go in. For example, in these next 4 months, it is our windy season. The equitorial trade winds blow 24 /7. It never stops day or night. This week, it is 20-25 mph. You may laugh, but if the wind is under 12 mph, we do not rig up, but say, 'we will go sailing tomorrow'...:-)

..ok,..so to me,...IMO,...and this is no one elses opionion,..I have family, a job,...and I love to sail in these conditions,....and I must come back alive every time!

...so, for me,..it is NOT the fastest boat in perfect condition,....it is the boat that can be safe,...be fast,..and consistant winner ,..when all factors are figured in..

..ok?..

...pick what you like,..after all,..you will be sailing it,...not me!

...Scooby,...Wouter and all,....are great helps and have helped me out 100%,...so, listen to what they say,....no BS,....sometimes there is 'sabre-rattlin', but, in good fun,...I dream of the day we all could be on a start line and go at it..

...for example, I have a 2000 I 17,...heavy by todays standards,....but,..she can fly in 20-25 mph,.....and destroy 3-4 foot waves in full throttle,....the only option I highly recommend is Front foot straps ( mine are at aft end of d-board well),....for, at that speed,...and motion,....there is no way you will stay connected to the boat! The 'down' hull is airborne 50% of the time, for as you exit a wave full throttle, the boat 'flies' for a second or 2, then attack next wave front and the entire bow disappears up to the front crossbeam and boat launches out again,....it happens in a wink of an eye...all full speed,..it is amazing what these boats do in the ocean,...for 17 feet 6 inches is not alot of boat in the deep blue!

...just so you know, I sail 'open class',..the I -17( with 150 s.f. sail..smaller than stock) beats I-20, N 5.8,.P 19MX, Tornados to upwind mark in aforementioned wind/wave conditions,....they hate it,..I love it.

....of course, Wouter,.John P, Scooby, Sparky...sail by Ogletree and articles by Asbey taught me how to dial the boat in,..the info and help is out there,..but you have to pursue it

...so,..buy any boat you want and get wet mon!


Bruce
?-17 Euro ( I, then N, now F...)
St. Croix
US Virgin Islands

Yes, I can get my boat back up in around F4+ (which is the the only times I've tipped it in). I am 76kg last time I checked.

Can you get a F16 back up in all wind conditions with a 75kg person ?



Are you sure about that?

I took the numbers from this years Texel list - the most up-to-date list of handicaps I could find and here it is (all boats rated with Spi):

M18 Texel handicap = 91
A cat Texel handicap = 94
Supercat 18 sp Texel handicap = 96
N 18sq Texel handicap = 97
F16 Texel handicap = 99
N Inter 17 Jib Texel handicap = 101
Taipan 4.9 Texel handicap = 101
Bim 16sp Texel handicap = 102
H17s Texel handicap = 102
N Inter 17 R Texel handicap = 102
TheMightyHobie18 Formula single handed Texel handicap = 104
N 5.5 SL Texel handicap = 104
H FX1 Texel handicap = 105
N Inter 17 XL Texel handicap = 106
Shadow Texel handicap = 107
N 4.5-1 Jib Texel handicap = 109
Nacra 16vm Texel handicap = 110
N Blast Jib Texel handicap = 110
N Inter 17 Texel handicap = 110
Topcat K2 Texel handicap = 110
Freestyle 474 Texel handicap = 111
H17 Texel handicap = 111
Prindle 15s Texel handicap = 113
Supercat 15 Texel handicap = 113
Topcat K3 Texel handicap = 113
N 500 Texel handicap = 114
Dart 18 Texel handicap = 115
Windrush ss Texel handicap = 115
Dart 15 Sting Texel handicap = 116
Coolcat 15 Texel handicap = 118
Dart 15 Texel handicap = 118
Piranha 15 Texel handicap = 118
N 4.5-1 Texel handicap = 119
N Blast Texel handicap = 119
Seaspray 15 Texel handicap = 119
H14s Texel handicap = 120
Prindle 15 Texel handicap = 121
Speedycat Texel handicap = 121
Topcat F Texel handicap = 121
Catapult Texel handicap = 122
Dart 15 S Texel handicap = 124
Hawke Surfcat Texel handicap = 124
Pixie Texel handicap = 124
Windrush 14 Texel handicap = 124
Dart 15 Sting without jib Texel handicap = 125
H14 Texel handicap = 130
Maricat Texel handicap = 130
Paper Tiger Texel handicap = 130
Merricat Texel handicap = 134
Hobie 13 Texel handicap = 138
Newcat 12 Texel handicap = 139


So F16 is 4th, Inter 17 Eu is 19th from a list of 49 so I think you will find that there are more boats behind the Inter 17 Eu spec.

And that is simply numeric.

Source of the Texel numbers is here

I have no information about the price with all the upgrades.

We don't get the big waves 1-2 meter swells not much surf. Winds 5-30 K

[/quote]

That question can only be answered when we know your body weight.
[/quote]

96 kg. 190 cm. thanks!

The alu masted F16's can be righted by a 70+ kg person in ALL conditions. In F4+ the required weight is less. Carbon masted F16's can be righted by a 60+ kg person in ALL conditions. In F4+, again, with less.

So the simple answer is yes.

Personally I think that rightability should be defined as the ability to right a boat unaided in all conditions. I tipped the boat in windspeeds below F4 (14 knots) when doing the wild thing or when flying a spinnaker and making an emergency crash to avoid a ugly collision. I think that saying that you don't capsize a boat below F4 is a bit like asking to get yourself in a problem situation. It will happen, maybe not often, but it is going to happen one day. Often sailors say well, I only push my boat in races and then there is always help around. That is true but you get a DNS when you receive help during a race. Also I hear from several sailors that they are holding back as a result, something they don't appreciate. I fully support the claim that there are righting aids out there that solve these issues, but still I consider ease of righting one of the more important specs of a catamaran.


With respect to the other point. Are we seriously comparing the singlehanders like I-17, FX-one, A-cat, F16's etc with boats like the Pixie, freestyle 474, Windrush ss, Piranha 15, Maricat and Merricat, to name but 6 ?

C'mon Scooby.

Of course I was talking about the serious alternatives, not every boat ever build.

You made a statement.

I checked the facts of the statement. Your statement was wrong.

Hola


...see, we need to all get on the start line and go at each other in the water...

...pick your boat,....go full throttle,.....winner takes all braggin'' rights!


...IMO,.....and this is Bruce at 52 years old and a svelte 230 pounds DRY......In big waves,..I cannot right my 17,...no way,......for, as I get the mast to lift( no problem),..in I go into a trough and the mast goes down( big problem)...ugh!

...I do not know about other boats, for the 2 man boats do get up ok,....so, it must be me..

..I do not separate myself from the boat,..I stay on the boat,......I have floated away before,......and could not catch up,...no way........that son-of-a-gun sails fast on its side too!

..so, my answer?....I do not flip,.....

...you say,...'how do you do that?'..

,..solo sailing is 110% concentration all the time,....you watch everything every second,......you will have to train your self,.....or re-train yourself,.......the skills of 2 - up will not do on a solo rig....

....and it is good strategy not to flip,...why?....you loose all the ground you gained, and have lost your lead,...so, it make no sense to flip..


...when I race in open class,...and an extreme gust comes thru the course,...I just watch the jib boats go over,...one by one,..they get wiped out,....I just focus, pinch, focus, pinch,....and make my way thru the carnage and go on my way,....race over,...all I have to do is finish!...see?


..get a boat,...get wet,...so sailing.....ahoy!

Bruce
?-17
St. Croix
USVI

[/quote]


Personally I think that rightability should be defined as the ability to right a boat unaided in all conditions. [/quote]

Yes I agree good point.
So that's not the case with the N17?

You will have no problems righting any of the singlehanded catamarans in any given condition !

With this weight I would advice that you can a custom mainsail made for your bodyweight. A standard mainsail will leave you wanting in the saildrive.


Wouter

Yes or maybe a longer boat? But the F18's are lead heavy.. What would you suggest?

Interesting thread,
about the bodyweight - we sail smaller 16ft boats, less sail area and narrower than Blade with less hull volume, basically looks like a 16ft scaled-down Tornado with old style mainsail (pinhead), only 12,45sqm sail area (main).
Wouter would say that a 90kg sailor would need a fuller-cut mainsail to give more drive, yet in anything over 12knots it is the heavy guys who sail fastest, granted they are the better of our class, but when sailing solo against the sloops Kevin recently won a 2 hour race by a large margin, he does have a bit more luff-curve which gives him the power he needs but that is very easy to acchieve provided your boat`s class-rules allow it, so confirm that before you choose boats.
If you have the choice to buy either boat, get the one which has the most number of good sailors in your area if you want to race, it`s that simple.

Steve

Longer boat is certainly not required. F16 are raced doublehanded with a crew weigth ranging from 115 kg to 155 kg, your 95 is still ways of that. James Sage (also about 95 kg) raced the Taipan uni in several championships and won. I assume the other boats are not much different in this respect. However, I'm sure James did have a custom sail made as the Taipan rules allow that. Certainly not all classes allow that, Taipan and F16 class do.

That was my serious answer, my non serious answer ist that Florida has a guy that singkehands a Nacra Inter 20 ! So who are you to skipped the option of singlehanding an F18 ?

Wouter

The only problem he has is that he doesn't have enough hands to control all of the lines at the same time. Transitions are difficult for him (but he's hanging in there...)

You can single hand an open 60, as long as it's set up right, so I would think that you can single hand whatever cat you want. That being said, you have to think about which class of boats you'd be most competitive in as a single hander...

Where did James cut the sails?
I don’t have a problem with sailing a 6.0 solo but in the rare unlikelihood I capsize I’d prefer to rescue myself.