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One solo catamaran sailor's point of view [Re: Mark Schneider] #62231
12/06/05 10:08 PM
12/06/05 10:08 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 851
US Western Continental Shelf
hobiegary Offline
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As my "icon" expresses, I stick my tongue out or I "thumb my nose" at you racers.

While racing is the best thing for many, mabe most, cat sailors, ... racing is simply not necessary for a guy like me.

The best sailing that I have enjoyed was not during a race. The second best day was also not during a race. Third, forth, fifth, sixth, and seventh best days also did not depend on racing. Yet, for a racer, I can understand his best days being those on the course.

To best describe my best days of cat sailing, I'd probably have to point to the folks who are hanging on to a boom of a wind surfer, or those who are piloting a hang glider. Parachuting may also be similar. It is ALL about the wind, water, sails, and a list of many other things that just, simply stated, does not include other humans.

Having other people around me, enjoying the sport, either as crew or as sailors on other boats does enhance the experience to some extent. But the competition that naturally evolves between two sailboats on the water is a win, win situation. The comparison between boats gives the skipper a reference point upon which to judge his own performance. Soon, that reference allows improvement that may not have been possible if the reference were not present.

The next thing you know, you are going faster, sailing better, and also inspiring the same improvements in "the competition."

That is where my appreciation of competition ends and a racer's appreciation of the competition begins.

Sailing is a very personal sport for me. I would have made a good windsurfer, had I chosen to go that route. I could have been a good hang-glider if I was willing to take those risks. Cat sailing has brought many challenges that I savor and enjoy. I don't need any other boat or person to be in the arena in order for me to have a superb time of exillerating fun and excitement as I explore nature's forces.

The propultion I experience when trancducing the prevailing wind and my boat's floatation into high speed transport is unmatched. Your experience shall never be exactly the same as mine. You may or may not be able to experience a somewhat similar thrill but, I don't feel the need to compare my successfulness against yours. If you happen to be nearby, I'll compare, just for the sake of measuring my own successfullness in making the best of the situation. Or I may simply provide you with the same feedback reference.

I would not want to hinder another sailor by taking his wind or causing him to tack onto a less favored situation. I just want my clear air and to all of you reading this, I wish...

Fair Winds!

GARY
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There’s one thing I wanna know:
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Re: Competition and Resentment [Re: Jake] #62232
12/07/05 10:07 AM
12/07/05 10:07 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Hillsborough, NC USA
Quote
I've been here and pretty frustrated too ... someone running down the line spins up and parks in front of a crowded line of boats that are moving. Remember that that parking person has to allow the boat behind him time and opportunity to avoid him...he can't just spin up willy nilly swinging their sterns under your spin pole and expect to be in the right.


Jake, yes, you have the gist of it. Rules 15 (Acquiring Right-Of-Way) and 16 (Changing Course) basically say that when you change the relationship between your boat and another, that you have to give the other boat the opportunity to keep clear. There are the caveats, but that is the general idea.

The more I've learned about the rules, the more I'm impressed with them in two ways: (1) They don't contradict each other, and (2) it is almost impossible for one boat to make another break a rule - without breaking one herself. There's nothing to prevent you from putting yourself in a bad position, but nobody can force a penalty on you. I'm actually surprised at how well a relatively small set of rules (Part 2 is only 6 little pages) covers all the situations where boats meet on the water.

Regards,
Eric

Re: One solo catamaran sailor's point of view [Re: hobiegary] #62233
12/07/05 10:19 AM
12/07/05 10:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
pbisesi Offline
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Syracuse,N.Y
Gary: No need to "thumb your nose". Racing is not all about where you finish in a race. To me it's going to see friends that you wouldn't see any other way. My wife and I have sailed in many regatta's locally,regionally,nationally and she recently returned from the worlds. We have become friends with people all over the country and from many parts of the world. The racing is about seeing these people, catching up, being in a great location that you would not have went to on your own and having a great time with good friends. You can't always guarantee wind, but we will have fun anyways. If there is racing we will all do our best on the water and tell stories about it after over a drink and some dinner. I have told people many times, I didn't get into sailing for the sailing. We have a few trophies at home that probably have cost us thousands of dollars each. Again:It's not all about the race.
Attached: My daughter and I racing, learning about sportsmanship,patience,good competition and a host of other humbling things.

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Pat Bisesi Fleet 204
Re: Competition and Resentment [Re: PTP] #62234
12/07/05 10:24 AM
12/07/05 10:24 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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jake, wouldn't that be barging anyway?


Well,... no. That's not barging. "Barging" refers to a boat that takes room at a starting mark when she isn't entitled to do so. Rule 18 (Rounding and Passing Marks and Obstructions) explictly turns off at "...a starting mark surrounded by navigable water..." so only rule 11 (On the Same Tack, Overlapped) applies. A windward boat can't stick her nose between a starting mark (a.k.a. committee boat or "barge") and a leeward boat. If she makes the leeward boat bear away, then she breaks rule 11 by "barging".

Regards,
Eric

Re: One solo catamaran sailor's point of view [Re: hobiegary] #62235
12/07/05 10:50 AM
12/07/05 10:50 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Quote
While racing is the best thing for many, mabe most, cat sailors, ... racing is simply not necessary for a guy like me.

Gary,
More power to you. Thanks for pointing out that Racing is just one aspect of Sailing - something we racers sometimes forget. I'm glad that you don't have to race in order to enjoy sailing.

Personally, my two biggest reasons for racing are:
(2) It really improves my sailing skill. I thought I knew how to sail until I tried pitting my skill against others. That was a humbling experience! The more I race, the more I learn about sailing and the better sailor I become.
(1) More importantly, racing gets me out on the water. It takes me a half hour to pack up a boat and my equipment, an hour to drive to the lake, an hour to rig the boat, an hour to de-rig, an hour to drive home, and a half hour to put everything away. That's five hours of overhead to get in a few hours of sailing. If it weren't for the scheduled race, I wouldn't go through the effort very often. It would be much easier to simply stay home and mow the lawn. So, my most important reason to race, is that it gets me to sail.

Regards,
Eric

Re: One solo catamaran sailor's point of view [Re: Isotope235] #62236
12/07/05 11:14 AM
12/07/05 11:14 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
MauganN20  Offline
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BANNED
I race for the booze and the chicks

Re: One solo catamaran sailor's point of view [Re: hobiegary] #62237
12/07/05 08:19 PM
12/07/05 08:19 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 576
BobG Offline
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Posts: 576
Then Sir Gary I challenge thee to a sailing enjoyement competition You have got a great demeanor about it all and it will carry you far.I do know that the boats were made or discovered for their performance, racing just test the boat and the sailor. there does seem to be an awful lot of rules though, except of course here in Delray where we frown upon rules....
Quote
As my "icon" expresses, I stick my tongue out or I "thumb my nose" at you racers.

While racing is the best thing for many, mabe most, cat sailors, ... racing is simply not necessary for a guy like me.

The best sailing that I have enjoyed was not during a race. The second best day was also not during a race. Third, forth, fifth, sixth, and seventh best days also did not depend on racing. Yet, for a racer, I can understand his best days being those on the course.

To best describe my best days of cat sailing, I'd probably have to point to the folks who are hanging on to a boom of a wind surfer, or those who are piloting a hang glider. Parachuting may also be similar. It is ALL about the wind, water, sails, and a list of many other things that just, simply stated, does not include other humans.

Having other people around me, enjoying the sport, either as crew or as sailors on other boats does enhance the experience to some extent. But the competition that naturally evolves between two sailboats on the water is a win, win situation. The comparison between boats gives the skipper a reference point upon which to judge his own performance. Soon, that reference allows improvement that may not have been possible if the reference were not present.

The next thing you know, you are going faster, sailing better, and also inspiring the same improvements in "the competition."

That is where my appreciation of competition ends and a racer's appreciation of the competition begins.

Sailing is a very personal sport for me. I would have made a good windsurfer, had I chosen to go that route. I could have been a good hang-glider if I was willing to take those risks. Cat sailing has brought many challenges that I savor and enjoy. I don't need any other boat or person to be in the arena in order for me to have a superb time of exillerating fun and excitement as I explore nature's forces.

The propultion I experience when trancducing the prevailing wind and my boat's floatation into high speed transport is unmatched. Your experience shall never be exactly the same as mine. You may or may not be able to experience a somewhat similar thrill but, I don't feel the need to compare my successfulness against yours. If you happen to be nearby, I'll compare, just for the sake of measuring my own successfullness in making the best of the situation. Or I may simply provide you with the same feedback reference.

I would not want to hinder another sailor by taking his wind or causing him to tack onto a less favored situation. I just want my clear air and to all of you reading this, I wish...

Fair Winds!

GARY
[Linked Image]
Quote
And each time I feel like this inside,
There’s one thing I wanna know:
What’s so funny ’bout peace love & understanding?
Elvis Costello

Re: One solo catamaran sailor's point of view [Re: BobG] #62238
12/07/05 08:50 PM
12/07/05 08:50 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,253
Columbia South Carolina, USA
dave mosley Offline
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dave mosley  Offline
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Posts: 1,253
Columbia South Carolina, USA
You know when the first sailboat race happened?
When they built the second one....

never drag your feet in the water, never depower, theres got to be someone to race!


The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27





Re: One solo catamaran sailor's point of view [Re: dave mosley] #62239
12/07/05 09:36 PM
12/07/05 09:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Clermont, FL, USA
Quote
You know when the first sailboat race happened?
When they built the second one....

never drag your feet in the water, never depower, theres got to be someone to race!


Word!


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
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Great thread Mark [Re: David Ingram] #62240
12/08/05 08:59 AM
12/08/05 08:59 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
Chris9 Offline
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Chris9  Offline
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Crofton, MD
Thanks Mark!

Dragging your feet in the water can be a great way to slow your boat down during a rounding. I don’t think this is against the rules? Also helps lessen progress towards the oyster shell launch.


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
Re: Great thread Mark [Re: Chris9] #62241
12/08/05 09:40 AM
12/08/05 09:40 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Detroit, MI
Dragging your feet in the water to slow down when approaching a mark is against the rules:
Quote
42.1 Basic Rule
Except when permitted in rule 42.3 or 45, a boat shall compete by
using only the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her
speed. Her crew may adjust the trim of sails and hull, and perform
other acts of seamanship, but shall not otherwise move their bodies to
propel the boat.

Re: One solo catamaran sailor's point of view [Re: dave mosley] #62242
12/08/05 10:02 AM
12/08/05 10:02 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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Quote
You know when the first sailboat race happened?
When they built the second one....


Hey! That was my line! (adapted from a Richard Petty quote about racing cars.)


Jake Kohl
Re: Great thread Mark [Re: mbounds] #62243
12/08/05 11:15 AM
12/08/05 11:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
Chris9 Offline
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Perhaps it would be an act of seamanship to drag something in the water to decrease speed?

Propel is not defined by the rulebook. However, my 1947 Funk & Wagnall’s definition is: To drive or urge forward.

Is it against the rules?

However, it may be against its intent.


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
Re: Great thread Mark [Re: mbounds] #62244
12/08/05 12:12 PM
12/08/05 12:12 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
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Michigan

Quote
42.1 Basic Rule
Except when permitted in rule 42.3 or 45, a boat shall compete by
using ONLY THE WIND AND WATER TO INCREASE, MAINTAIN, OR DECREASE her
speed. Her crew may adjust the trim of sails and hull, and perform
other acts of seamanship, but shall not otherwise move their bodies to
propel the boat.

I guess using the water could be thought to mean putting your legs in the water to slow you down (BTW, I thought slowing down at any point is a bad thing, right?). However, a motor is "using the water" as well and they are certainly against the rules.

Last edited by PTP; 12/08/05 12:15 PM.
Re: Great thread Mark [Re: PTP] #62245
12/08/05 04:39 PM
12/08/05 04:39 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 984
2017 F18 Americas Site
Dan_Delave Offline
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Quote
If there's a rule that says you must protest then I'd appreciate it if someone could tell me the number. I'm always learning new things about the rules. Until then, however, I'll continue to say you can't protest someone for not protesting someone.

Now, it's conceivable you could say that someone broke rule 2 (Fair Sailing) because he favored his buddy, but that would be hard to demonstrate. Besides, if you witnessed the infraction, you can always protest his buddy yourself.

Regards,
Eric


Eric:

According to Dave Perry, my guy on rules, you are not "required" to protest. In his book Understanding the Rules of Racing page 234 he says, "that the use of the word "may" in rule 60.1 clarifies that it is the boats choice as to whether or not she protests."

Later,
Dan

Re: Great thread Mark [Re: Dan_Delave] #62246
12/08/05 08:40 PM
12/08/05 08:40 PM
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Charleston, SC
NCSUtrey Offline
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This "may" clause seems that it would favor "team racing," where you work together to beat someone. Team racing is illegal.



Trey
Re: Interesting?? [Re: NCSUtrey] #62247
12/08/05 10:35 PM
12/08/05 10:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
pbisesi Offline
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OK: Say you are heading to a gate close behind two boats that you are very close to in the regatta. Those two go into thier roundings and there is lots of contact and no one calls protest. You know there was a foul and if either one of those boats has to do a circle you would pull ahead of them in the regatta (maybe getting you a top 5 or 10). I have seen this happen many times and usually someone near by will start yelling that someone owes a circle. Do you, as the one closest, who saw it happen but is unsure who was wrong then protest both under rule 18?, rule 2? This could cause resentment. Thoughts??

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Pat Bisesi Fleet 204
Re: Great thread Mark [Re: NCSUtrey] #62248
12/09/05 11:43 AM
12/09/05 11:43 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Quote
This "may" clause seems that it would favor "team racing," where you work together to beat someone. Team racing is illegal.


Well, "team racing" has a different set of rules than "fleet racing".

Nitpick aside, you are correct. In fleet racing, if two boats collude, then they break Rule 2 "Fair Sailing". If they deliberately set out to do so, then they might also be protestable under Rule 69 "Gross Breach of Sportsmanship".

Regards,
Eric

Re: Interesting?? [Re: pbisesi] #62249
12/09/05 12:04 PM
12/09/05 12:04 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Isotope235  Offline
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Quote
OK: Say you are heading to a gate close behind two boats that you are very close to in the regatta. Those two go into thier roundings and there is lots of contact and no one calls protest. You know there was a foul and if either one of those boats has to do a circle you would pull ahead of them in the regatta (maybe getting you a top 5 or 10). I have seen this happen many times and usually someone near by will start yelling that someone owes a circle. Do you, as the one closest, who saw it happen but is unsure who was wrong then protest both under rule 18?, rule 2? This could cause resentment. Thoughts??


Strictly speaking, You should immediatly hail "Protest", and (if required) promptly display a protest flag. The preamble to the rules says that competitors are expected to both "follow and enforce" the rules. If the boats made contact, then someone broke a rule. That boat (and maybe both) is(are) expected to follow the rules and take a penalty. As a competitor who witnessed the infraction, you are expected to enforce the rules, and protest (I'd suggest protesting under rule 14 "Avoiding Contact" if you are unsure about what other rules may have been broken).

As a practical matter, you may decide not to protest. It's a hassle and you won't win any friends. Other people may resent you for it and you might not like the reputation you could get. There's also some risk going into a protest hearing - you never know what the outcome might be.

Personally, I tend to protest when fouled, and I take my penalty when I foul someone else. That's just part of playing the game by the rules. Others feel that calling "protest" is like accusing someone of cheating. They'd rather just sail away than give offense. As with most things, the right choice depends on the circumstances. You have to use your best judgement. At the club level, most people overlook minor bumping, but at the Nationals, you'd better watch out.

Regards,
Eric

Re: Interesting?? [Re: Isotope235] #62250
12/09/05 12:16 PM
12/09/05 12:16 PM
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38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
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It's just like the guy who always plays his ball "up" and has a justification, in his own mind, for doing so.


John H16, H14
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