A lovely George Washington Day Regatta at Lake Eustis this weekend with Waves (Rick and Mary and lots of friends). There was a huge fleet of 38 shiny new Melges 17s scows with highly roached mains (no flat tops yet tho) on Aussie 18 highly prebent round masts (no mast rotation yet), & colored spinnakers. After racing was over Saturday the wind came up to about 13-14 knots for the run home, so I went Melges hunting.

With a lot of lake left, I caught 3 of them duelling all out with chutes up trying to run over each other. There was a great breeze for the Wild Thing- and it worked. With maybe a 6+ knot speed differential, I rolled over all of them on the same course with 150 square feet of sail vs their 3 sails, and lots of wetted surface. Maybe not fair, but... It almost made up for being whupped by Woodie Cope again.

Plus,I think the Melges is over 300 lbs and needs a crew.

I anybody wants to get a real feel for the speed difference between dinghies/mono's and cats then go and that a look at the Australian VUC yardsticks. A 49-er skiff (with 32 sq. mtr. kite !) is about a fast as a .... Prindle 16/hobie 16.

98 % of the monon's/skiffs is slower then the 49-er

Wouter

There were only 15 Melges 17's at the race. You might have confused the herd of M16's as part of the 17 fleet. The 16's had white sails. The 17's had gold mylar, kevlar, unobtanium.

You rolled 'em? Congratuations! How much handicap did you give your boat that weighs 165 lbs and one skipper to one that weighs almost twice as much with a skipper and one crew? If you wanted to compare speed it would have been better to have found experienced Eric Hood (factory), Mary Ann Ward (Melbourne, FL), or Art Brereton (Michigan?) alone on the 17.

The Melges 17's hit the market this time last year when the first demo 17 was shown at Lake Eustis. Seventy Melges 17's have been sold in it's first year. My new Melges 17 weighs 300 lbs. The mast is around 16 lbs. A crew is helpful but several at the regatta decided it could be single handed; not with the fastest spin sets, but singlehanding would not be difficult.

To be fair, the owners at the regatta this past weekend, with the exception of only a few boats, were BRAND SPANKING NEW to the boat and the others had not sailed the boat much, if any, at all since they purchased it in it's first year (in the frigid climate of the boat's home ground in the midwest). I talked to four owners who had not been out for the first time until last Friday. I would have been one of the brand new skippers with a clueless crew had my recovering fractured left foot not kept our new 17 in the garage at home in Orlando. My total time on the boat since it's purchase this past December has been a total of two twenty minute naps taken on the fordeck in the garage.

It takes a lot of courage to rig any boat for the first time on Friday, 900 miles from home, and to race on Saturday with an inexperienced crew of any age handling most of the 480 sq. ft. (total) of sail at the pointy end. So, what you had were mostly brand new owners fleeing the frozen north for a weekend who were happy to be on the water with their new-smelling boat with as green a crew, too. I wouldn't gloat too much about running on an A-Cat past that crowd.

A couple of the 17's were crewed with a very young son on each; eight and thirteen yrs. old. My wife and I talked to a couple of the little guys. (She figured if they could do it, then she could, too.) It was funny seeing her walk up to a boy half her height asking, "Do you handle the chute?". His Dad answered, "It's his first time." There were some spunky female crew out there, as well.

One young crew who said he would rather have been wakeboarding referred to the catamarans as, "That 70's Show. My dad had one." I'd call that a verbal wind shadow that reeled you in.

Melges has been coming out with some very new product: witness the 17 and the 32. "Time on the boat" seems to be missing from the discussion when Melges enters conversation. The Melges 32 owners took a bad rap at Key West Race Week for not going out when everyone's stick was breaking. (Were they smart or sober...or both?) They should have been given credit for admitting that they were new to v. expensive boat and would rather keep it in one piece until they had some time on the boat and until the new crews had jelled. When rich sailors drag pieces of boat back to the dock, a smart new owner takes notice. Knowing when NOT to go out is just plain smart.

Melges is one boat builder that has introduced new product for sailors that don't have a ton of money in the bank. Melges are a little pricey for their size but I can attest that you definitely get what you pay for.

Give the new owners at least a couple of seasons to get to know the boat before passing judgement on the performance of either the crew or the boat. And what are you doing out there in 5-10 hunting scows to pass? That's pathetic.

I think A new Melges 17 costs about the same as a new Inter 20, can you imagine if you had smoked by them (even faster) on a new Inter 20??

But you mentioned the real attraction of most dinghy racing, they had 38 boats. The 17 is new, they get even bigger numbers on the older Scows. It is not often we get that many of one type cat on the line. I'm sure it was their Midwinters or something, wasn't it? I know you A cats had about 40 down in the Keys for your midwinters, a great turnout, but usually we don't see their numbers.

I was surprised they didn't put a couple trapezes on the Melges 17.

Whew...nerve be strucketh.

(Jake. You're so bad.)

New Melges17: $15,000 including painted trailer. Melges.com

Some of the new 17 owners were nice folks who knew they weren't going to look good. So what? Intimidation and the perception of arcane sailing rules keep a lot of newbies from participating and even more from buying a sailboat in the first place.

The trapeze question is one that comes up about the 17 and, I'm only guessing, that the target market owners are tired of traps. Melges was very thoughtful to hit a segment of the market that would be not only moving up from another scow but also those of us who have been beach catted to death. I don't mean that to sound too harsh. I love multihulls but life is short. Do something different for a change. What else is out there with a big rag that can be as much a rush? I can fly a hull but planing is a hoot while seemingly on a ragged edge. 480 sq. ft. on a few sq. ft. of lightweight hull sounds pretty good, too.

I don't think you can learn much from "racing" against other boats on the way to the course or on the way back to the beach after races. Especially if they don't even know you are trying to race them, since you are on a completely different kind of boat.

P.S. I thought it would have been interesting if the A-Class cats had been on the same course with the Scows and the Melges 17's. Then we could have seen better what the comparative speeds are.

For my part, my apologies. I've sailed the M-16 and M-20. Both were very fine boats.

Basically, I like anything with sails! The multihull/monohull thing is like chocolate and vanilla.

I do most of my sailing on the Gulf of Mexico, where the wind can go from 0 to 35+ in an instant. In that extreme, my favorite boat is a Catalina 30! No lie!

Thats hilarious!

The 12-year-old grandson of one of our Wave sailors was visiting from up North. His grandmother got him a crewing job on a Melges 17. This child had never been on a sailboat before in his life.

Saturday night after the racing he said, "There are so many different strings to pull for all kinds of different things. And that big sail kept falling in the water." (Referring to the spinnaker.)

On Sunday the Melges guy was looking for a different crew, but the total novice kid who sailed with him on Saturday seems to be very enthusiastic about his whole experience. And that's good.

Mary, why aren't there more Opti age kids sailing Waves? I remember when the Wave first came out, they took it to an Opti regatta, put some kids on it, two at a time, they LOVED it, loved the speed, loved all the room and having a friend with them! I expected it would eventually replace the Opti as a great kid training boat. And what happened to that Fast is Fun US Sailing Multihill program?

Also, could the Wave be fitted with a single trap or would the mast not take the load?

Oh for the love of gawd can we please stop comparing mono's to multi's!

"I don't think you can learn much from "racing" against other boats on the way to the course or on the way back to the beach after races. Especially if they don't even know you are trying to race them"


when there are 2 boats on the water...there is a race...

Melges are fun boats, but they arent catamarans...

Why are kids not on Waves?
Because the majority of "Yacht Club Kids", are kids with parents that own a monohull. My son will start on an Opti this year at 7 yrs old. He went out twice last year on an Opti, but was a little small for it. I thinl he's ready this year though. Not quite ready for a Wave but that will certainly be next.

In my humble opinion, it is not a matter of "comparing" for brag purposes. It's a matter of setting up races for boats of comparable speeds and sailing styles, regardless of how many hulls they have.

I wouldn't care if I was a roach on a popsicle stick. If I'm out there floating on something without a motor I'm having a good day.

mary:

You go girl !!! I had a ball this summer sailing on a real momoslug. Catalina 22 Sport, but we kicked butt one elapsed time except against Stars in high wind. 1 1st and 2 2nd's.

Doug

Wouter--SShhhhh...those skiff guys think they're the cat's meow and faster that a speeding bullet. Don't burst their bubble that they're slower than some of the oldest cat designs around.

I owned various beachcats for years. Then bought a 30' Jeanneau monohull in the late 80's - wanted to do some bluewater sailing. Owned the boat for 9 years, sailed to Mexico 3 times, raced it some, kids grew up on it, enjoyed the boat immensely, then went back to beachcats. I'll never own a monohull again. Life is too short to sail around at 6 knots. Speed and comfort are inversely proportional on a monohull. My next cruiser will be a trimaran, something along the Farrier line!

The saying goes....
"Show me something that floats, I'll show you a boat, Show me two things that float, I'll show you a race"

Just my 2 cents.....

I grew up sailing on the family monohull, and only recently sold it. But the family always had the desire for a multi. My wife couldn't stand the mono, heeling and going 6-7 knots max didn't cut it. She's enjoyed the cats, fast and relatively flat and less of the motion that brings on seasickness. The F-27 is awesome, easily reaching speeds into the mid teens and I haven't flown the spin yet. And yes, any time two boats are on the water it's a race, and the loser usually has a bunch of reasons why they fell behind. Can't ever see a mono in my future again either, but I'm with the rest in what matters is being on the water - that comes first, preferences as to what gets me there come second.

"That 70's Show" - pretty funny, even more so considering how long the scows have been racing. The M17 is just a newer scow, so shouldn't that be part of "That 20's Show"? Heck, the kid's Grandfather probably raced a scow.

But it does show different perceptions (and perceptions may as well be reality) - cats are still stuck with the opinions people have about them from the 70's regardless of design updates, whilst an update of an even older boat type is fresh and exciting.

The M32 thing at KW is interesting, the opinions weren't that favorable on the SA forum of a boat that cost that much that couldn't handle those conditions. Not all boats there were breaking rigs. By the way, there was also much hand-wringing on the Farrier/Corsair sites about the F/C-28r class bailing on the last race due to the conditions - people were afraid it would send the wrong message to the sailing world about the boats and the sailors.

Wow- 19 posts including repostes in 1 day! (reposte as in fencing- with swords). The new M17 guys were showing off planing with chutes- going AS FAST AS POSSIBLE in 13 knots of breeze! I would have been doing the same thing- pedal to the metal.
ANd now- I gladly return the gesture- *SPLAT!*- (2 pounds of wet fish).

Never ever put monos and multis on the same course. They are not the same animal. We can't even get it right for all the different multi's we have.

Fine you don't like mono's... but a hell of lot of people do and they pay a insane amount of money for them and I'm kinda thinking they do it cause they don't suck.

So again, why do we find it necessary to dog out another group... Oh wait... I get it, its becuase they aren't like us.

Carry on.

Dave,

A few years back an E Scow sailor was speculating that if he had the right conditions, he could beat Daddio in the Mug Race. We sailed down that year and he launched from the Palatka marina and met up with us at the dog leg as we were approaching Palatka. Havinging sailed the 30+ nm we weren't interested in setting the chute on the light winded broad reach to the Holiday Inn. He saw us coming and did a 180. He set the chute and started drag racing us with his self given head start. It was comical for us(Charlie, Pam and me) to just sit on our butts and sail past them with just main and jib. Charlie and Pam never sat up and I only sat up to see where we were going and for the occasional trim of the main.

Needless to say the E Scow sailor never said a word about it again. That year it seems that we passed him the next day not far from the same place we passed him on the way down.

As Wouter alluded to, it is pure fantasy for a Melges 17 sailor to think he is faster than an A Class cat or for an E Scow sailor to think he can beat an RC-27. I would be really surprised if the fastest monohulls had performance curves that came close to most average catamarans under ideal conditions (for the monohull).

My hometown of Mobile, AL hosts the annual Dauphin Island Race which is billed as the largest one day regatta in the United States. They typically get between 300-400 boats to race from the north end of Mobile Bay approximately 18 miles south to Dauphin Island. There was an article about the race in 2004 in SAIL magazine.

There are typically two starts. The handicap (PHRF) monoslug classes go first at 9:00 AM. They are followed by the one design and Portsmouth classes 30 minutes later. There are typically anywhere from 15-25 beach cats racing this event every year. The race is typically a beat for the first 9 miles to Middle Bay Light and than a close reach for the next 9 miles from Middle Bay Light to the finish. This can be a race made for an A-cat!

I last raced it in 2004. The race started in a light southwesterly but there was an inversion keeping a much faster moving upper easterly gradient from mixing with the surface air. For the first 30 minutes after the start, I worked away from the classes in my start and sailed through the back end of the PHRF monoslugs as the breeze backed into the southeast and slowly started to pickup. Just as I broke through to the front of the PHRF fleet which consisted of two Olson 40s, an Oyster 40, and a One Design 35, the upper air broke through to the surface and the breeze picked up from 8-10 knots to 20-25 knots. All I had to do was drop the traveller 3", pull on the downhaul, and rotate the rig. The 35-40 foot monoslugs were on their ears as their crews tried to get reefs in their mains. The looks on the faces of the 12-15 sailors sitting on the sides of these boats as I ripped past them going higher and faster was priceless.

I was the first boat to cross the finish line followed a couple of minutes later by Mark Ederer and Steve Beal on Mark's Nacra 6.0 NA. You could not even see the the sails of the lead PHRF boats we had passed. They ended up finishing one hour behind us.

The next day in the local newspaper, they did not even mention that Mark and I were the first boats to the finish line. They only talked about the first monoslug, the Oyster 40 which was named "Tyrant" (oh please). At least the article in SAIL magazine gave us beach cats credit for getting there way ahead of everyone else.

Oh well, it was a very fun day of sailing and I'll do it again this year.

Bob Hodges
A2 USA 230

The only good thing about racing a mono is that someone hands you a sandwich at some point. And you get a better tan, my wetsuit tan isnt really working with the ladies.

get a life gents (lady seems pretty sussed !) , not even worth comparing cats to monos .
I race a lightweight single handed cat with kite for kicks , cruise a 32' keelboat with wife and kids , race a Tasar occaisonaly (with wife)Kids and I occaisonaly race on friends 40.7 and kids normally race a skiff (pointy type !) , I would never try and compare one to another .

oops nearly forgot the radio control lasers in the winter !

We should be grateful of the gr8 diversity of floating options we have rather than try picking holes in others.

Just my 2 groats .

Actually, I'm quite fine with monos. As I said, it's more important to get on the water. My wife doesn't feel that way, but that's fine because it enabled me to get the Corsair. After sailing that it will be way tough to go back if I ever have to.

I think when it comes to what you sail or drive, or live in, it needs to talk to you personally. So, get what you like. I spent a lot of years singlehanding the keelboat just to get out there. Lots of people love 'em for sure, and there's still few things as pretty as nicely designed mono with the rail in the water.

But, I think the reason the attitude that is seen from our side dogging the keelboaters is this - most of us have heard a lot of it directed at us from the keelboaters. So it's fun when we show them up on the water, and it's hard for people not to crow about it. Guaranteed if the other guys beat the cats they would crow about it.

A massive grasp of the obvious!
Who said a Melges 17 was faster than an A-Cat? I can't find that post.

My post suggested Dave find one of the experienced 17 skippers to compare boatspeed. Comparing boatspeed doesn't equate to saying "an M17 can beat an A-Cat". It means, uh, comparing boatspeed.

Sorry, didn't realize this was such a sensitive subject.

What are groats?

The name groat was given in the Middle Ages to all thick silver coins, as opposed to thin silver coins such as deniers or pennies. In about 1560 the word fourpence came to replace the word groat.

2 groats = 8 pennies = approx 3 pence = approx 5 US cents

Two groats! It used to be a "penny for your thoughts", then it went up to my "two cents worth"! Now it's a nickel!?

btw- one reason not to bad mouth monhulls, is that they might be disenclined to invite you back to their party. On the "Lake Eustis" site, I didn't see a lot of info. about cats.