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Re: Allow me to clearify this ... [Re: scooby_simon] #70811
03/30/06 05:04 PM
03/30/06 05:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


I differ on mast rotation is light winds. I rotate less. I feel a very full sail is just draggy and slow in the really ligtht winds.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Allow me to clearify this ... [Re: Wouter] #70812
03/30/06 05:15 PM
03/30/06 05:15 PM

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Wouter:

Yea new sails are fun to figure out. I have a 190 sq ft Pentex reacher and go along with my Pentex squaretop on my Hobie 17. Still trying to learn the reacher as this is a LOT of sail on this boat. It is roller furling so at least it is easier.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
www.tcdyc.com

Last edited by DougSnell; 03/30/06 05:16 PM.
Re: Allow me to clearify this ... [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #70813
03/30/06 05:38 PM
03/30/06 05:38 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
veteran
Tornado  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Charlie O., arguably one of the top 5 cat sailors active today, gave me this tip. As stated before, DH only for gross adjustments, fine tune with main. Previously, we were trying to adjust DH in the puffs...and found we'd over compenstate and were too slow to gain much before the puff had passed by. I've used Charlie's method in a couple of regatta's now and once we get in the groove with it, the boat handles like nothing I've experienced before. This is not something just for stable winds...you are compensating for gusts, even big ones, but with the main sheet only once your are in the ball park range with the DH. Helmsman can concentrate on steering the swells and does not need to luff if the crew is on the ball.

Quote

Mike, about the downhaul thingy. We rarely sail in winds so stable that we can do what you describe, so the skipper runs the downhaul. Rule is that skipper use the downhaul to control power while crew controls the leech for pointing and fine-tuning power. Getting this right is very much like running downwind with the spi, teamwork and getting the feeling for it. If we goof it up, crew is responsible for letting out mainsheet to avoid a capsize and skipper waits as long as he dares before luffing up.
When I study the video from Athens, I can only see the french team sail this way (skipper on downhaul), but perhaps the coverage of the other boats was in pretty stable wind.. I dont know, but Martin Strandberg advocated skipper on the downhaul in gusty wind. Neither the swedes or the french did too well in Athens


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: Allow me to clearify this ... [Re: Tornado] #70814
03/30/06 06:03 PM
03/30/06 06:03 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

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Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Quote
Simon, would you say going up to 90degrees of rotation on teardrop shaped masts is a generic setting for very light wind conditions?

I agree that it will power you up, but the drag, the drag..
I prefer to pull on quite a bit of downhaul to flatten the sail in very light wind to reduce drag, and keep the mast less rotated than 90 degrees. Power to drag ratio is what keep you going in very light winds in my opinion.


All,

No, in very light wind you need to keep the air attached so you cannot have a full sail, you need it to be fairly flat.

as I said, in light wind (so 0 wiring to one wiring you need the power).

Very light wind you need a flatter rig.

if you re-read what I say initially I hope it's now clear what I mean:

Quote


Very Light wind.

[color:"red"] moderate mast rotation, bit of downhaul to flatten the sail a little [/color], moderate mainsheet tension (to try and keep the leach telltails flying)

Light wind.(only one or none trapping)
[color:"red"] Max mast rotation [/color]and mainsheet tension to keep the leach telltails flying.




F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Allow me to clearify this ... [Re: scooby_simon] #70815
03/31/06 01:46 AM
03/31/06 01:46 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
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West coast of Norway
Thanks Simon. Must have been more tired than I tought last night, after a 14 hours working day, it is very clear now.

I remember we tried about 90degrees rotation and a tight sheet three years ago going upwind in what you describe as light conditions. It felt slow and bound up, but I dont remember if we had a large separation bubble on the windward side or what. This was before we had a GPS, so we will definately put it in the "go fast" book and test it again as soon as possible.


Mike, I noticed what you wrote in your excellent report from MORC and the NAs about how to run downhaul. It makes a lot of sense, and Charlie is an autorithy.
In our prevailent conditions we have quite strong gusts when on the trapeze. We need to run the downhaul, or dump armloads of sheet combined with luffing up. Of the two, we choose the latter.

Re: Allow me to clearify this ... [Re: ] #70816
03/31/06 04:07 AM
03/31/06 04:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Great fun, Doug.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Allow me to clearify this ... [Re: Wouter] #70817
03/31/06 04:35 AM
03/31/06 04:35 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Quote

I remember we tried about 90degrees rotation and a tight sheet three years ago going upwind in what you describe as light conditions.


Rolf, I said sheet tension to kee pthe telltales flying, not tight.

On the Spitfire (and my 17) I woould say it was "one hand, no leg bend, not actually that tight" tight...for the "light" 0-1 wire conditions..

As opposed to "max tight" being "both hands, bending and extending legs, bending boom and creaking tight" tight



I would also suggest adding many telltails to a sail when learning and then mucking around with Rotation, Downhaul, mainsheet and traveller untill you

1, Work out what is fast
2, work out which telltails you need to use in which situations (and which ones to ignore).

I think I have around 10 sail telltails (on each side of the sail) plus 4 leach telltails on my Inter 17 sail and I don't use all of them in all conditions.



F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
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