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Spi halyard rigging #70818
03/30/06 04:26 PM
03/30/06 04:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 186
rbj Offline OP
member
rbj  Offline OP
member

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 186
It seems that most F16's are rigging the spi halyard using a single line system which is "cascaded" to a tack line via two blocks so hoisting one line sets the head and tack of the sail simultaneously. It seems ideal for singlehanding. I understand you can set the overall luff tension of the system when it's rigged.

Some questions:

1) In higher winds, does setting more luff tension depower the spi the same way that more luff tension depowers the main and jib? Or do most people just use the 90 degree fist rule in all wind strengths?

2) Do people adjust the length of the tack line to control how high the spi tack flies or is the tack always pulled to the spi pole block? I had thought that tack line length could be used to tune spi performance but maybe that's a monohull thing. Maybe it's also irrelevant for singlehanded sailing (too much to worry about)? WIth a single line system I don't think you could adjust that independently of luff tension anyway. Is that why two man boats like F18's often use a two line system?

3) Some boats run the tack line and blocks inside of the spi pole and some outside. The inside solution looks cleaner but harder to rig. Does the outside solution work just as well? It kinda looks like more potential to drag or get snagged on something, ie, putting the kite away after a capsize/pitchpole etc.

I asked the following somewhere else but didn't get a reply so I'll try here:
When playing the traveller in gusts under spi, are you just dumping it with each gust and sheeting it as the gust passes? Also, if dumping, are you dumping it just slightly or significantly (ie, ever to the point of releasing it)?

Jerry


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Re: Spi halyard rigging [Re: rbj] #70819
03/30/06 06:34 PM
03/30/06 06:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 202
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pkilkenny Offline
enthusiast
pkilkenny  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 202
Hey Jerry,

F16 solo spin comments:

I've attached a pic of my Taipan F16 alongside a fleet of F18's. Notice how low i've rigged the pole compared to the F18's (except, interestingly, the INFUSION F18 , which seemed to go low...). Doc and I have sailed our F16's in high wind and BIG waves w/ out losing or tweaking the spin pole to collision with the face of a wave (well, there was that one time in Santa Cruz but that's because Doc has the old style pole attachment...). The F16 is light enough to hit the top fifth of chop while the heavier spin cats break deeper, cut the waves in half, and would submerge a pole this low.The lower pole reduces windage SIGNIFICANTLY and will make your douses error free ( w/ the Goodall snuffer). It'll also reduce your vision forward, but this is good also because it'll force you onto the wire, which is faster than hiking it out...

Some setting specifics :

Light wind - no stopper ball , nice tight luff to help you sail lower / shorter course to the mark.

Medium to Windy - 30 - 35cm. of line between block and head of spin. With the Goodall Spin set your block to clew at the shroud adjuster. You'll be sailing hotter angles than anyone else , but Oh Man, when you foot you'll be bookin and you'll drive really , really deep (if your main is tensioned to a nice flat profile) ! At "C" mark you'll be ahead and with no more gybes than the boats that sailed lower angles...

Blowing Bacteria Off The Heads Of Bald Men : Keep the loose luff setting
(I know most people will say this is wrong...) BUT, move the block to spin clew onto the outermost tramp jib block loop. This'll allow you to really flatten the bottom and middle of the spin , sail a lower course , and keep a nice flat spin (Flat whether uphill or down is fast in the F16...).
Hey , don't touch that traveller car when sailing solo ! 2.5cms. off center on rear beam is fast solo ( about 4cm. if you've got a Big Head Main cause it'll flop to windward if you dont watch it...).
Also, go "old school" with a Harken swivel Clam Cleat for you spin halyard. The new systems aren't as reliable...

PK

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Re: Spi halyard rigging [Re: pkilkenny] #70820
03/30/06 08:49 PM
03/30/06 08:49 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,037
Central California
ejpoulsen Offline
old hand
ejpoulsen  Offline
old hand

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,037
Central California
Quote

Hey [Eric]

F16 solo spin comments:

I've attached a pic of my Taipan F16 alongside a fleet of F18's. Notice how low i've rigged the pole compared to the F18's (except, interestingly, the INFUSION F18 , which seemed to go low...). Doc and I have sailed our F16's in high wind and BIG waves w/ out losing or tweaking the spin pole to collision with the face of a wave (well, there was that one time in Santa Cruz but that's because Doc has the old style pole attachment...). The F16 is light enough to hit the top fifth of chop while the heavier spin cats break deeper, cut the waves in half, and would submerge a pole this low.The lower pole reduces windage SIGNIFICANTLY and will make your douses error free ( w/ the Goodall snuffer). It'll also reduce your vision forward, but this is good also because it'll force you onto the wire, which is faster than hiking it out...

Some setting specifics :

Light wind - no stopper ball , nice tight luff to help you sail lower / shorter course to the mark.

Medium to Windy - 30 - 35cm. of line between block and head of spin. With the Goodall Spin set your block to clew at the shroud adjuster. You'll be sailing hotter angles than anyone else , but Oh Man, when you foot you'll be bookin and you'll drive really , really deep (if your main is tensioned to a nice flat profile) ! At "C" mark you'll be ahead and with no more gybes than the boats that sailed lower angles...

Blowing Bacteria Off The Heads Of Bald Men : Keep the loose luff setting
(I know most people will say this is wrong...) BUT, move the block to spin clew onto the outermost tramp jib block loop. This'll allow you to really flatten the bottom and middle of the spin , sail a lower course , and keep a nice flat spin (Flat whether uphill or down is fast in the F16...).
Hey , don't touch that traveller car when sailing solo ! 2.5cms. off center on rear beam is fast solo ( about 4cm. if you've got a Big Head Main cause it'll flop to windward if you dont watch it...).
Also, go "old school" with a Harken swivel Clam Cleat for you spin halyard. The new systems aren't as reliable...

PK


Shheeeesh Paul
That's alotta digs/advice for me in one post--okay, I know I need to lower my pole, get a new cleat, trap downwind, add a stopper ball to my halyard, change my clew point, bring in the traveller, etc...


Eric Poulsen
A-class USA 203
Ultimate 20
Central California
Re: Spi halyard rigging [Re: ejpoulsen] #70821
03/30/06 11:29 PM
03/30/06 11:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 202
P
pkilkenny Offline
enthusiast
pkilkenny  Offline
enthusiast
P

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 202
Quote
Quote

Hey [Eric]

F16 solo spin comments:

I've attached a pic of my Taipan F16 alongside a fleet of F18's. Notice how low i've rigged the pole compared to the F18's (except, interestingly, the INFUSION F18 , which seemed to go low...). Doc and I have sailed our F16's in high wind and BIG waves w/ out losing or tweaking the spin pole to collision with the face of a wave (well, there was that one time in Santa Cruz but that's because Doc has the old style pole attachment...). The F16 is light enough to hit the top fifth of chop while the heavier spin cats break deeper, cut the waves in half, and would submerge a pole this low.The lower pole reduces windage SIGNIFICANTLY and will make your douses error free ( w/ the Goodall snuffer). It'll also reduce your vision forward, but this is good also because it'll force you onto the wire, which is faster than hiking it out...

Some setting specifics :

Light wind - no stopper ball , nice tight luff to help you sail lower / shorter course to the mark.

Medium to Windy - 30 - 35cm. of line between block and head of spin. With the Goodall Spin set your block to clew at the shroud adjuster. You'll be sailing hotter angles than anyone else , but Oh Man, when you foot you'll be bookin and you'll drive really , really deep (if your main is tensioned to a nice flat profile) ! At "C" mark you'll be ahead and with no more gybes than the boats that sailed lower angles...

Blowing Bacteria Off The Heads Of Bald Men : Keep the loose luff setting
(I know most people will say this is wrong...) BUT, move the block to spin clew onto the outermost tramp jib block loop. This'll allow you to really flatten the bottom and middle of the spin , sail a lower course , and keep a nice flat spin (Flat whether uphill or down is fast in the F16...).
Hey , don't touch that traveller car when sailing solo ! 2.5cms. off center on rear beam is fast solo ( about 4cm. if you've got a Big Head Main cause it'll flop to windward if you dont watch it...).
Also, go "old school" with a Harken swivel Clam Cleat for you spin halyard. The new systems aren't as reliable...

PK


Shheeeesh Paul
That's alotta digs/advice for me in one post--okay, I know I need to lower my pole, get a new cleat, trap downwind, add a stopper ball to my halyard, change my clew point, bring in the traveller, etc...




Yes, and know Pi, from memory mind you, to 100 places-

3.147653398213457164773923456398165127648373452987103577245.....

PK












Re: Spi halyard rigging [Re: pkilkenny] #70822
03/30/06 11:41 PM
03/30/06 11:41 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
F

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
You guys are too tough for me! I'll be dfl for some time!

Re: Spi halyard rigging [Re: pkilkenny] #70823
03/31/06 09:04 AM
03/31/06 09:04 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 465
Oxford, UK
pdwarren Offline
addict
pdwarren  Offline
addict

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 465
Oxford, UK
Quote

Also, go "old school" with a Harken swivel Clam Cleat for you spin halyard. The new systems aren't as reliable...


Nah - we had one of those stock on the Tiger. Absolutely wretched device. Kept letting go of the rope in strong gusts. We never did figure out exactly what was wrong with it, but we went swimming one too many times because of it and it got swapped for a spinlock. We haven't looked back.

Paul

Re: Spi halyard rigging [Re: pdwarren] #70824
04/03/06 03:49 AM
04/03/06 03:49 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 186
rbj Offline OP
member
rbj  Offline OP
member

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 186
Thanks Paul, lots of info to digest...

Jerry

Re: Spi halyard rigging [Re: pdwarren] #70825
04/03/06 04:25 AM
04/03/06 04:25 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Paul, I have not tried the spinlocks, only heard that the plastic cam wore out over time. But there are lots of teams using spinlocks on everything from mainsheets to downhaul cleats. Looking forward to hearing more about eventual wear issues on these units over some time.

About plastic and cleats: We often sail two up on a Tornado with crew weight of 190Kg. In windy conditions we have broken two Harken cleats and one Holt on the spi halyard. All was oversized for the load (6mm line + 8mm hose = 8mm line thickness) but made of plastic. We have ended up with an 20 year old alu cleat looted from our first boat. We had the same experience with the roller bearings in the swivel base. After two replacement wheels/bearings, we fitted a stainless steel block inside the swivel base and never looked back.
If you want to put high loads on a cam cleat, I think line diameter is critical. Also, if one of the cams are mis-aligned when you cleat the line, the device will break. Both cams need to engage, if one of the cams stay in it's 'starting position' it will break the retaining pin and invert.

I guess your experiences might be due to not having a perfect match between your halyards diameter and the cleat. As I wrote above, we had to sleeve a 8mm hose over our 6mm halyard to make it stay in the cleat.

Re: Spi halyard rigging [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #70826
04/03/06 06:16 AM
04/03/06 06:16 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Several supplier have several different qualities in cleats. Ranging form pure plastic to reinforced polymer. Alot of shops only carry the cheap plastic ones. You have to get the catalogy and look for the specific product number of the high load baring product.

I've used Ronstan extensively on my F16 and have had only one of the old model Ronstan autoratchet (spi sheet) break on me. This is however a well accepted product fault of the first model autoratchets. I knew it could happen before it did. I send my block back with a letter and Ronstan replaced it with a new model autoratchet where the cause has been redesigned. I hear from several other sailors that this modified block is up to specs.

I'm using 4 mm dyneema as spi halyard and only once in a while I have a slight slip on my spi halyard. Often when the line is not properly cleated as rolf describes. Several at our beach club use spinlock cleats but with the salt and sand they operate alot less then when new. Often the need exstensive cleaning before racing. I'm staying with my extremely simple ronstan cam cleat setup on the mainbeam. I don't seem to have more trouble then others while this setup was only 35 Euro's in total. I have thought about thickening the halyard locally to get a more firm grip on it by the cleat.

Why spend money on expensive stuff and end up at the same level of reliability.


Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Spi halyard rigging [Re: Wouter] #70827
04/03/06 06:57 AM
04/03/06 06:57 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Hmm, my two Harken autoratchets dont release properly anymore (also 1. generation without adjustment). Wonder if I can send them to Harken and have them replaced, or is Ronstans warranty better

Re: Spi halyard rigging [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #70828
04/03/06 02:43 PM
04/03/06 02:43 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 465
Oxford, UK
pdwarren Offline
addict
pdwarren  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 465
Oxford, UK
Quote

I guess your experiences might be due to not having a perfect match between your halyards diameter and the cleat. As I wrote above, we had to sleeve a 8mm hose over our 6mm halyard to make it stay in the cleat.


It's possible. It seemed like a decent quality device, and was mounted on a metal plate and had a bridge across the top, so I don't think flexing was the problem. We couldn't explain it at the time.

I've not had any reliability problems with the spinlocks. They also have the advantage that they never accidentally cleat the rope when you're dropping the spi.

Paul


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