Not exactly. You can luff the windward boat as long as you do so within 16.1 giving the boat room to keep clear. If the windward boat reaches the point where she can't head up anymore without flipping she always has the option to slow down and go behind.
Basicaly the leward boat can go head to wind and long as she does so slowly enough to give the windward boat the oportunity to luff the spinnaker and go behind (most people forget about this option in the heat of battle).

11 ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall
keep clear of a leeward boat.

16 CHANGING COURSE
16.1 When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other
boat room to keep clear.

The only time the leward boat is limmited is when she has come from clear astern (within two of her hull lengths)into the leward position. Then she can luff but only to her proper course.

17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
17.1 If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths
to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper
course while they remain overlapped within that distance, unless in
doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not
apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule
13 to keep clear.

Proper Course: A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the
absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no
proper course before her starting signal.

Just a few comments.

With respect to the rules. Hey... its the game... if you are not playing by the rules... why bother playing. Blustering about this or that and declaring screw the rules is just childish. Please go home and don't play with the other kids.

Bob and Scooby's point is that in regattas with very different kinds of boats... AND a WIDE RANGE of skipper experience... Everyone has to think a few steps ahead.

The older H16 sailor probably had NO IDEA what was going to happen to him on the port layline in a race course without an offset and spin boats on the course. He probably did not remember this circumstance being so bad in the past when he raced. Many at the event are not up to speed reacting to situations.... They need some coaching before they head out to the race course... Why have the damn skippers meeting if you are not going to offer some training for those out of practice or new to the game.

Perhaps you don't... but I WANT that older sailor to bring his boat out for the first time in years and keep on playing the game.... to me... its a failure of all the sailors at the regatta if this fellow quits because of a situation on the water.

Would somebody be screaming on the water if it were a couple of kids out there on the 16?

Yes the rules book is bland. That is why I bought Dave Perry's Understanding the Rules book. It is fun and easy to understand. Everyone who doesn't know the rules good should get it. I will go over it with Ashleigh also.

Doug Snell
Hboei 17
Soon to be Mystere 4.3
www.tcdyc.com

Wrong Wouter !
The mast abeam rule has gone ! Rodysail's post quotes the rules and explains it very well



Also, on the start line, If I have positioned myself so that as I countdown the last 10 seconds, I sheet in onto a close hauled course which will take me (if I have judged it right)close to the side of the "Start vessel". If sombody else tries to get between me and the start vessel, I can't luff up head to wind, but I can maintain my close hauled course and do not have to let them in. Once again if they put themselves in that position it is their hard luck.

Spot on, Dermot.

I, for one, do miss the 'mast abeam' rule, but all that has happened is that you need to plan slightly more when overtaking.

I don't understand your comment about not forcing someone into a RC boat though Wouter. Dermot has it right IMO. I've certainly forced people to go round again at the start, and on one occasion they hit, and sank, the RC boat. That hasn't changed, if you are laying the RC boat (or spacer mark) you DON'T let anyone in above you! If they are trying to get in above a boat that is closehauled (or lower) and laying the end of the line (it works on port at the pin too), they have no rights and are barging.

I dont miss the "mast abeam" rule at all. Some of the old-timers in our club still hail "mast abeam" at us sometimes, and it always confirms our suspicion that they have not read the rules for the last 8 (?) years (it also cracks us up, and we make sure to stay away from them as it's just non-serious racing).

I am a bit unsure about the barging rule, if you by not letting him in cause him to hit the RC boat and does damage, will you also be penalized for not foreseeing that?

The damage to that particular RC boat was primarily their fault for not having a spacer mark on a line that had to accommodate 50+ cats on a fairly windy day at a Nationals. No sympathy from any competitors that day!

Rather than go into a specific incident (incidentally I WAS summoned by the protest committee, but exonerated) I don't think the boat nearest the mark or RC boat can be held accountable for anything if they are making a fair, legal start. Chances are that there will be a whole gaggle of boats to leeward and allowing a barging boat in can cause massive problems further down the line and possibly injure people (don't forget that there may well be crews already out on the wire). No, I feel that any boat that reaches in with boats below gets all they deserve if they push the point, coupled with which, it'll be the guilty that suffer rather than those who are playing by the rules.

BTW I've been caught out in the past and, although I couldn't have been described as reaching in, been forced up by a boat below me and had to come to a crash stop so that I could duck into the line behind the most windward boat. It was my fault, I don't blame the other guy, it's just part of racing.

I should add to this that "slowly enough" is not meant to mean slowly. The windward boat must react quickly and evasively.
As far as I know that's not written in the rules but it is how the to judge guys have interpreted it. [see Perry's book]

I have been victimized by bargers in the past, and had the protest committee refuse to penalize the barger.

I would like to see the RC set an anti-barging mark DOWNWIND of the start line such that a high-speed approach is much more difficult for the barger. Even 10 meters would be effective, imo.

Hey Bob, Nice rules discussion. It's to bad you have to be called names for explaining the basic rules. Of course your correct on all your explanations.
It seems to me people make things much more complicated than they need to be.
If you are trying to drive over someone, they will take you up. You can't take them above a mark and you have to give room to finish.
If you try and squeeze in at the committee boat, expect to get scraped off. That hole you see is a mirage and will disapear very quickly.
If you are on H16 and there is a pack of Tigers coming downwind at you, get out of the way. They sound like a freight train and can't avoid you as easily as you can avoid them. Your not racing them. When I'm being driven over by a bigger faster boat I just ask that they make it as quick and painless as possible, don't fight it.
Who has not overstood A on port tack and came in hot. It happens all the time. No one wants to tack under other boats and it's not always easy to find a clean lane.

The H16 should have went up instead of down. As was mentioned, this type of things should be addressed with new or older sailors coming back.
We always have a post skippers meeting gathering with people that need a explanation of the starting sequence and some basic rules.Addressing what to do around spin boats is a great topic to add.
This year a buddy system has been formed to assign an A fleet skipper to a novice and help with boat setup,rules and questions someone new may have.

The one thing I have not seen mentioned is that if the I20 boat used profanity in expressing his concerns, then he can be tossed no matter how correct he may have been.
I think it falls under Gross Misconduct.
Maybe Bob can explain.

I have been racing(if I can keep up) with Bob(Rhody)since he went to cats and he is a perfect gentleman on and off the water.

I have had bargers scraping the paint off my hull, with nowhere to go becouse of leeward boats as well. But I was wondering what a proper jury would do. John was exonerated and that is good.

So if someone would cause you to follow the rules you want to give him an "assbeating". Makes me want to race!!!! Just make sure when you open that can of whupass that its big enough.

Clayton

Somebody mention wup butt?

I also have a problem with the whole capsizing because you have to head up thing. Blow the chute. The whole heading down thing is to stay powered up, moving fast, and hauling butt, and saving yourself while doing that. I think we very often forget that a viable option in a lot of cases is to simply free the sheets, slow down, and maneuver. I've seen an incident or two where the boats couldn't maneuver properly to avoid because they forgot they needed to adjust the sail trim to help steer. I've seen powerboats be guilty of the same thing - threading through a bunch of sailboats when all they had to do was cut power to let the other boats go by.

Then you need to re-read your rules book, you are talking total Crap.....The following Rules apply:

11 ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall
keep clear of a leaward boat.

16 CHANGING COURSE
16.1 When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other
boat room to keep clear.

The only time the leaward boat is limited is when she has come from clear astern (within two of her hull lengths)into the leaward position. Then she can luff but only to her proper course.

17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
17.1 If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths
to leaward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper
course while they remain overlapped within that distance, unless in
doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not
apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule
13 to keep clear.

As someone else says abouve, Mast-abeam has gone.

The H-16 in this post was beating upwind and was below the port tack layline. It would have been worse if he had tried to tack from my vantage point. The best thing that could have happened in this case was for the I-20 to head up slightly (they would not have flipped) and the H-16 to bear off slightly. Instead, they both held their course until it was suddenly very close.

The I-20 sailor never used any profanity and per my previous post is a very nice sailor. Again, I think he was pre-occupied with his set and the H-16 sailor was not paying enough attention to boats coming down the leg. Lesson learned here is both sailors should have been more heads up. The right of way boat is in control and should try to communicate what they want the give way boat to do if possible. That's good sportmanship and is very common on the race course amongst experienced sailors. BTW, I never protest a sailor who is trying to avoid me even if they cause me to alter course. The only time I take it to the protest level is when someone blatantly and knowingly breaks a rule and does not exonerate themselves on the water with a 360. Live and let live (but that does not mean I will let you barge or pass me to windward and if you flip while I take you up, tough luck!).

Bob Hodges
A-Class USA 230

Now you are doing it yourself Dermot, I didn't refer to the "a beam" in this specific situation. I refered to the "keep clear and allow room to the other" rule in this situation.

Now I know why I dislike rule discussions. The bloody things are just to much open to intepretation.

I can't remember whether the "mast a beam" rules was cancelled or not. I have a year 2000 rule book I use so I guess I can be reading from an outdated book here. That would be my mistaken.

However I still claim that if you force another to make a crash by actively luffing up or have him risk collision that you are (probably) at fault as well. Because if he had room to go below then he would have done so; the fact that he was FORCED to flip sort of implies he didn't get enough time/room to stay clear. From this point onward it is up to the personal intepretation of the judges of what "enough" means.

With respect to barging (I agree with you Dermot here) I think the thigns I wrote got misunderstood. I wrote that both baots were close hauled side by side. This is not the same as coming of a beam reach trying to get in. It is my experience that alot of sailors don't know what barging actually is. Often they think it means that nobody can be to their luff side, which is just non-sense.

Anyway, I neither had any need of both rules. I don't do "mast a beam" and I don't start near the committee boat. Too much risk of running into trouble in both situations. I stear clear or threaten to pass above while actually passing the baot through their lee-side. Mostly they think that their windshadow will block me but most of the time it doesn't.

So I think I agree with several others in this thread that you are best by finding ways around problem situations. Once you get into rule conflicts then the damage has already been done.

I think I will leave it at this. Got some video editing to do.

Good thread by the way, guys. Never hurts to cover the rules one more time ahead of the season.

Wouter

Wouter,

So you now understand that rules 11, 16.1 and 17.1 apply and what you said above was wrong ?

And your comments about crashing are also not valid.

If you are going to be capsized by a boat below you taking you higher than the kite will let you, then you should have taken the kite down!

Overtaking to windward (with the kite up) where you do not have a clear overtaking lane is not the place to be.

Remember, if you do have a clear over-taking lane, another boat cannot block you - without being able to justify that the alteration in course was "following their proper course". As they are not allowed to defend for greater than 2 boatlengths below you.

For those that don't have the current rule book.

ISAF Racing Rules of Sailing 2005-2008

I have been following with interest. I forced a Fireball to capsize onto me at a multi-fleet regatta. We were sailing different courses but were both rounding the same mark. He was wanting to continue downwind to the finish whilst I was turning back up for the A-mark. I came broad reaching in with my Nacra5.2 while he was spinnaker sailing downwind. I was overlapped with him for minutes but sailing a much different angle. As I came closer alongside (leeward) I advised him of my intention to go up at the mark. He replied with the mast abeam nonsense. By the time we arrived at the mark I was ahead but still overlapped. So I turned up. And he capsized onto me ripping his spinnaker. He retired and I lost a position.
I would like to say in my defense that I didn't know at the time that he would capsize (no spinnaker exposure). And obviously he was refusing to dowse or cut it loose.

We were both a little bull headed and I hadn't forseen the consequences. I was racing open class and therefore time. He was racing in his fireball class and therefore position. He could have given way without losing position while I would have been losing time.


In my open class racing I often turn around the A-mark to see a few port lay liners coming at me. Our closure rates can be rather high and I know they are sweating it as I round down onto the broad reach. I often have my head down somewhat on the bearaway as we run through the offwind checklist. I just wish the port lay line crowd would knock it off. I bellow starboard, sit down, and hang on. No crash and burns yet.

Correct. Firstly, as long as we all stay mature about it, I think a good debate about different aspects of the rules is great. Helps everybodies understanding and can kill some misconceptions.

Now - the barging thing is 100% correct. Anybody who thinks they can run down over another boat and push between somebody and the start boat should be on good terms with their local boat builder because it will end in tears. I think most experienced racers would have been in the situation where a hole suddently evaporated and very quickly you are on the wrong side of the start boat though (found myself there a few weeks ago )

Tiger Mike