A few kite questions some of you more experienced pilots might like to have a go at;

Is a turning block under the tramp at the eyelet a good idea?
What's a good method for getting the halyard/retrieval line through the sock when rigging?
Are all windward / leewards port courses?
What's the best tack to be on going into the a. top mark, b. bottom mark, when sailing port hand windward / leewards?
What downwind angles give best VMG with a kite and how best to judge without a compass?
I have a 2/1 tack line which gets the tack out easily but puts a bunch a excess halyard on the deck when the kite is out. remedies?
How are knots to keep the patches apart in the retrieval line tied in during rigging?
What's a good measure setting luff tension?
Best jibing procedure?
Best bailout if the kite gets stuck up? Knife?
Best righting procedure in a ditch with kite up?
I think that's enough for now. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Might promote some discussion at least.
Any takers?

*What's a good method for getting the halyard/retrieval line through the sock when rigging?

We use a batten pushed trough from the front. Tie the retrieval line to the hole and pull trough.

*Are all windward / leewards port courses?

That is the olympic format, but who knows..

*What's the best tack to be on going into the a. top mark, b. bottom mark, when sailing port hand windward / leewards?

Depends on wind and position of marks, as usual. All regular tactics re. mark roundings apply.

*What downwind angles give best VMG with a kite and how best to judge without a compass?

Varies from design to design, windspeed and crew weight. In stronger winds it generally pays off to go as high as you can due to higher speed, in weaker winds we work the virtual wind but aim to go deep.

*I have a 2/1 tack line which gets the tack out easily but puts a bunch a excess halyard on the deck when the kite is out. remedies?

We use a 1:1 tack line, but had a 1:2 earlier which halved the amount of line on the tramp. If it bothers you, use a bungee to tidy it up. You do have a snuffer?

*How are knots to keep the patches apart in the retrieval line tied in during rigging?

We dont use knots or stopper balls, works great without them..

*What's a good measure setting luff tension?

Depends on your spi. Consult your sailmaker and experiment.
Exerpt from: http://www.landenberger-sailing.com/inde...=18&meid=19

Leech lines should be set as follows. The back line should only have just enough tension to stop leech flap. This will create a small turn in the leech, but this is normal and must be there in this type of spinnaker design. The luff line needs tension to create a stable luff. It takes some trial and error to get it perfect but once it is set you can just leave it. With too little tension the luff will at times collapse completely and it is hard to refill the spi without a big reaction on the spi sheet. When the luff line in too tight the front on the spi will become rounder and although it will be quite stable it will tend to role in and out giving always the impression that it wants to collapse. Normally it will not collapse so easily but will make it difficult to steer and sheet the spi correctly.


*Best bailout if the kite gets stuck up? Knife?

Never had that happen.. Yet..


*Best righting procedure in a ditch with kite up?

Snuff the kite and right as usual. You can usually reach the retrieval line from under the tramp.

I wouldn't say that after a year of spin sailing that I'm an 'experienced pilot' but I'll have a go:

Is a turning block under the tramp at the eyelet a good idea?

If you're taking the halyard back onto the tramp at all then a turning block is a good idea, I have mine lightly tensioned with bungee.

What's a good method for getting the halyard/retrieval line through the sock when rigging?

I use my tiller extension to simply push the downhaul through after tieing it round the flexi joint.

Are all windward / leewards port courses?

Not necessarily, although that would be ideal. If the RC are doing a good job you'll have a leeward gate rather than a mark so you can round either way. In bigger fleets you'll also get a spacer buoy at the A mark.

What's the best tack to be on going into the a. top mark, b. bottom mark, when sailing port hand windward / leewards?

I have always preferred to come into the A mark on stbd unless there is some major overriding reason not to (such as a huge lift <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />). Coming into the bottom mark it'll depend entirely on the race situation at the time. The obvious tactic is to come in on stbd again, but if there is a leeward gate rather than a mark then your options are much more open. With a single mark it can pay handsomely to come in on port if you think you've got the room and the ability to douse at high speed.

What downwind angles give best VMG with a kite and how best to judge without a compass?

It depends on your boat and the wind/wave conditions at the time. I have found that the optimum downwind angle is generally a lot higher than you'd expect (getting that apparent wind going makes such a HUGE difference). I will usually heat it up to get a hull flying and then bear off while trying to keep the hull just off the water - in other words as low as you can go without the hull dropping back into the water. In light stuff when you can't fly, it's just a case of 'feel'.

I have a 2/1 tack line which gets the tack out easily but puts a bunch a excess halyard on the deck when the kite is out. remedies?

As you're soloing I'd recommend you change to a single line system. That'll get rid of the excess line and give you only one rope to worry about.

How are knots to keep the patches apart in the retrieval line tied in during rigging?

One of the neatest systems I've seen is a series of small plastic tubes strung onto the line like beads. The patches eyelets were too small to allow the tubes through, so when the downhaul was used these spacers (about 6 threequarter inch long tubes) kept the patches apart. This does away with the need for spacer knots which I've never been a fan of. I currently don't space the patches on my latest kite and it seems just fine.

What's a good measure setting luff tension?

Ahhh, now I've been playing around with this a lot lately, and I've been doing some research. The current trend with the flatter kites, seems to be toward tightish luffs. The old rule of thumb was; set up your kite and then, grabbing the luff with your hand, set the tension so that you can just turn your hand through 90 degrees. The latest thinking from T's and F18s seems to be 45 degrees or less.

Best jibing procedure?

My personal preference: In off the trap, bringing the sheet with me (spin starts to collapse, but semi fills again as I turn further downwind), sheet under knee as I pull the tiller toward me, grab the mainsheet block and heave the main over slightly early, throw the tiller round the back, blow the spin sheet completely by moving across the boat (sheet is released from under my knee), grab the spin sheet again, hook on, out on the trap bringing sheet with me and sheet in at same time. Whole process takes maybe 3 - 5 seconds and kite is collapsed for only a second or so (Hopefully <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

Best bailout if the kite gets stuck up? Knife?

Strangely enough this happened to me last Saturday <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. My solution; a deliberate capsize followed by working my way to the hoist point where I discovered that the Ronstan ball block had collapsed and the halyard was jammed between the remains of the sheave and the cheek. I managed to free it and get the spin back into the sock before righting the boat. If I couldn't have freed it, I'd simply have untied the halyard from the spin head. I really can't see an occasion where you'd need to resort to a knife with these smaller cats.

Best righting procedure in a ditch with kite up?

Well, basically you've got to get the kite back into it's sock. This is simple enough to do, and I've set mine up so that it can be doused from above or below the tramp. Most boats are the same I'd have thought.


You're not going to regret supercharging the 430 Berny, in fact you're going to have a ball! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks guys, good answers though I'm a bit embarased to say that some are fairly obvious.
Yes I have a snuffer and the retrieval lines runs under the tramp. Fairly obvious process.
I like the plastic tube idea. Would work for luff tension also.

Jibe sounds easy on paper I just need to practice. I'm a bit nervous as the last time I raced in 20knots I was knocked over on the jibe. Not sure why exactly but I know it would have been more spectacular with a kite up. I'm think of bearing away and easing the traveller before the jibe just to soften the process a bit. Early on at least.

Ok so off the wind it's similar to the way I go down now, i.e. deeper for light conditions shallower when it's heavier.
And we're talking about bearing away on stb into the bottom mark, dowse the kite, jibe and harden up for the work or I guess you can jibe and then dowse instead of re-setting the spi. Even on port I guess you could bear away, dowse then harden up.

If I'm not on the boat early after a capsize the bugger turns upside down, a situation I have nightmares about. It doesn't happen often but I'm expecting a few ditches with the kite.
I need a better righting rope setup too I think. Mine is a bit primitive, basically a rope tied to the DS post and stowed in a bag under the tramp. I toss it over the upper hull and hook it's loop onto my harness. Works ok except when tossing it, I tend to weight up the overbalance point and the mast sinks.

Now I'm thinking about a turning block under the tramp on a bungie with maybe a limit cord.
Thanks again,
Bern

You will find that if you enter the gybe with as much boat speed as possible, that the gybe will go much more smoothly. It's counter-intuitive - I know. Consider the true wind speed vs. the boat. If you are sailing downwind at 15 knots in 18 knots of breeze, your differential breeze is 3 knots. when you turn (and maintain as much speed as possible), there is less wind pressure on the sails. If you are slowing down for that gybe and now doing 8 knots in 18knots of breeze, your speed differential is now 10 knots and there is a lot more wind pressure to cause a capsize.

>>Is a turning block under the tramp at the eyelet a good idea?

Don't know I use a completely different system then the others here.

>>What's a good method for getting the halyard/retrieval line through the sock when rigging?

Tiller extension/joystick. put it in the mouth, pull it in and tie the retrival line to its end then pull back.

>>Are all windward / leewards port courses?

No necessarily but most often indeed. Put you snuffer hoop on the port side of the pole and leave it at that.


>>What's the best tack to be on going into the

See the other answers, made by other posters



>>What downwind angles give best VMG with a kite and how best to judge without a compass?

Forget the compass, won't work. Steer by feel. Try to lift the luff hull and keep it there were sailing as low as possible without dropping the luff hull back in the water. You'll be steering many S-curves continiously.


>>I have a 2/1 tack line which gets the tack out easily but puts a bunch a excess halyard on the deck when the kite is out. remedies?

What is 2/1 in your opinion ? For the tack Line I would just have a 2:1 and for the top line I would 1:1. This also keeps the tack of the spi low on the pole. Make sure you have a bead on the tack line or you risk pulling the knot into the block.


>>How are knots to keep the patches apart in the retrieval line tied in during rigging?


Forget about these. If at all just have a small line with bead attached to the top patch and attach the retrieval line to that (after going through the bead). This way you seperate the top patch from the others and you get a decent effect without the hassle of having the other knots.


>>What's a good measure setting luff tension?

I'm using 45 degrees rule now. Hoist spi grap the luff with your first and have it turn 45 degrees. Seems to work for my 2003 goodall spi.

WOuter

Bern,
When it's blowin dogs off chains and you just want to survive and its time to jibe the best bet is to keep the main sheeted tight and jibe through the smallest angle possible. That way the main is stalled and not generating power. Once the jibe is over and the kite powered up you can readjust the main.
If you jibe through a large angle your swimming.
Small angle with tight main and your right.
Seeing is believing.....

Most of my capsizes when flying the kite have been caused by the main. Especially when I pull the kite down. Such a big sail has just or in the process of being put away and I turn the boat through to much angle without adjusting the main and I'm gone. So the main is best on tight if you can keep the breese to the rear but once that angle widens get the bloddy thing off. Just when its blowin' and you don't much feel tike swimming.(not that there's anything wrong with swimming, but you'd want to be pretty good at it if you want to place).

Regards,
Phill

Actually, that's about the worst thing you can do! As Jake points out, going slower increases the relative wind speed. Letting the traveller out means that the boom will come across later and with a bigger bang, by which time the sail will be at a greater angle to the wind.

In my experience, this all gets easier, not harder, with the spi. In a decent wind, you should have the traveller pretty much centered with the spi. Keep the boat speed on during the gybe and you'll be amazed at how little fuss the main makes as it comes across.

Paul

This works fine when flying a spinnaker - but do not try this without the spinnaker flying and a lot of boat speed. If you leave the main in tight and gybe while going slowly, the main will catch the wind on the new gybe and will likely round the boat up uncontrollably - I flipped in Charleston, SC doing this (twice) thinking that it would make the gybe easier (I didn't have the spinnaker up).

It happend to me as well in this years sailing seminar. I was the example for the day and the "what NOT to do conversation" lol

I pulled the traveller in too soon and the boat just went over slowly but surely. I was caught off guard, slipped down the tramp and I went swimming for a little bit. No fun when the pointy side is down <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Gybing: I like the go fast through the gybe method that Jake mentioned. When you make a great gybe in big winds it is magic! Example: It is blowing big, more than 20, crew out on the wire. Sorry not singlehanding. I say that we are gybing in 20 seconds. She is now prepared for it, aka not going to be surprised. I say ready to gybe? I wait for her response. She is coming in off the wire, keeping the spin flying nicely. As she comes in we are still flying the hull while I am ready to turn down. As she gets the lazy sheet in her other hand and "feels" ready for the gybe will say "Ready!" I turn down. I let the traveller down during the gybe to allow the main to start working immediately on the opposite side. She sneeks the spinnaker around the front, the main pops (rather softly) on the new gybe. As I am re-centering the main traveller the hull comes out of the water while she (crew) is all of the sudden behind me and out on the wire. I seems that the boat was ever flat. As if we went from flying one hull to flying the other hull without hitting the water. How does that happen? The whole thing takes about 5 to 7 seconds. Oh what a feeling!

Angles in different winds: In moderate winds (10-15) you will likely be sailing 90 degree angles downwind. In 5 to about 7 you will be sailing higher to get the hull out and apparent wind working. In less than 5, go in to the beach or sail really deep, as you will not be able to generate much apparent. In big winds the angles get bigger (further forward). We start calling the leeward mark about 10 or 15 degrees further forward of 90. If we overstand we are in big trouble and we do not mind an extra couple of gybes if we are too short.

We use an endpole system so no tack line to consider.

We do use knots in the line as spacers for the pulldown. Think about it, the less material that goes into the snuffer at once the easier to douse and better wear on the chute. Saves money.

Later,
Dan

What I find amazing is how much of knowhow I've lost in the three years I've been away from sailing. These posts have reminded me of stuff I've already dealt with in the past. I guess I'm getting old and forgetful or I'm just not up to speed yet but I have to admit, it does get harder as the years roll by. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
I remember bringing the main in before a jibe and feeding it out as the sail flicks over. Whether I can do this and manage a kite is the question. I guess the spi can be set after the main is trimed.
One trick is to have the mainsheet cleat position such that the sheet is easily disengaged and this raises another problem. My Ronstan adjustable cleat position mechanism gives me either a cleat angle which allows for easy engagement while on the wire but not easy disengagement from the trampoline, or the opposite ie., easily disengaged off the wire but almost impossible to engage while on trapeze.
Untill recently I never cleated my main, I simply had a deadeye, no cleat. This had to change in prep. for the spi and I'm not dealing with it well, (three swims in two months) after never 'putting it in' since the boat went on the water in '99.

On another note, now that I have a ms cleat, I've been practicing going under the boom looking forward. Much more confidence building. I hate not looking forward while tacking. Probably not a good idea while jibing in a blow though. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Hi Dan,
Mate I think the idea behind knots or spacers in the retrieval line is to keep the patches a little apart so that they aren't all going into the snuffer at the same time in a big bunch. It does make the 'stow length' a little longer but I think it may make the sail slide through the chute mouth a little more easily.

I try to avoid using the mainsheet while the spinnaker is flying. The sail acts like a backstay for the mast providing a great deal of support. If it is windy enough, you could fold your mast without mainsheet tension. I ease the traveler instead after coming through a jibe...just a little to help things breathe and then quickly bring it back as the boat re-accelerates.

I agree with the backstay comment. I do exactly the same however lately I've been experimenting letting a little traveller out, especially in big winds. We seem to be able to run a little hotter but the boat is far more settled. I'm not 100% sure if VMG is better overall though just yet.

Tiger Mike

I repeat myself. With sailing with a spinnaker it is paramount that you keep the spi happy. All other things are secondary. When sailing downwind with a spi you are sailing WITH a spinnaker that has a mainsail added, not the other way around.

I don't do anything with my mainsail when I'm sailing with a spi. I just make sure my gibes with the spi are smooth and at high speed and everything else will fall into place on its own. The mainsail will come accross automatically and the battens will pop once you heat it up a little.

So when rounding the A-mark just cleat your mainsail, set the traveller at the right position then hoist the spi and never touch the mainsail till the spi has been lowered at the C-mark and you are heading up to a reach and close hauled again.


Good luck,

Wouter

This is not an issue with the current F14's as the kite head is at less than 7/8ths. On the 430 this is only 300mm above the hounds.

Berny, put the retrieval line thru the sock, then attach the sock to the pole. Easier than any other method.

Dave, the sock doesn't come off the pole easy. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I sailed again today. I had a much better day coming to grips with the spinnaker. Only a light breeze around 5knotts probably gusting 10/12knotts but I was able to fly a hull downwind quite easily after a couple of runs. Good fun.
A couple of problems.
Halyard has too much stretch resulting in luff sag in the gusts. Gotta get some decent rope. Recommendations?
I changed the tack line to 1:1 and it works better with less surplus on the tramp when the kite is up.

I got a strange spi sheet tangle during one deployment. It got tangled around the snuffer mouth somehow. I re-stowed and re-launched the kite and it fixed it. I need to try to figure out what happened there.
It took me an age to rig the thing. Anyone care to help with the best procedure for hooking up the halyard and retrieval line?

We use 1/4" Excel Racing on the I20 and I've got a tapered Samson "Ultra-Tech" halyard on my F18 (3/16" ... but it's a little small) in diameter. Both are great lines. Note that the 3/16" Excel Racing is about the same size as the 1/4" Samson UltraTech...if going Ultratech, I would recommend 1/4"...if going Excel Racing, you can step down to the 3/16".