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Best spinnaker halyard line material?
by '81 Hobie 16 Lac Leman. 03/31/24 10:31 AM
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Re: First pics [Re: Berny] #75685
07/10/06 02:55 AM
07/10/06 02:55 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
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Jalani  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Berny, - Persevere!

Be assured that after that first, full-on downwind blast under spin, you'll be converted! You'll never want to go back to the simple life! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

With the F16, it is disconcerting to find yourself barely able to hang with Dart 18s, Topcats etc when beating. But pull the kite for downwind and they're long gone! You're hanging with F18, Hurricane SX, and maybe (just maybe) Tornados!!

I suspect that the 430/F14 won't be very far off that sort of pace.....


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: First pics [Re: Jalani] #75686
07/10/06 04:50 AM
07/10/06 04:50 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Steve_Kwiksilver Offline
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Steve_Kwiksilver  Offline
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Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
"With the F16, it is disconcerting to find yourself barely able to hang with Dart 18s, Topcats etc when beating."
Hi John, I`m struggling to understand this one - upwind the Mosquito is able to walk away from Dart 18`s when it`s enough breeze to twin-trap, and we can stay with them if it`s lighter ,say single-trapping. We point higher and go faster. Only the top 3 or so Hobie 16 sailors make us work hard upwind.
Now the Mozzie is not fully optimised and I`d expect the Stealth to be giving Dart sailors whiplash when it passes them, even upwind, given that your rig is much more efficient than mine (especially upwind)...
Have I missed something.?

Quick rigging and derigging spi (a method) [Re: Berny] #75687
07/10/06 04:58 AM
07/10/06 04:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Berny,

Here are a few pointers to help you speed up things. Just last weekend I explained and builded a large portion of them on a boat by a friend.

You can REALLY speed up the rigging of the spinnaker so it will only add 5 minutes to the setup time. No kidding.

First get rid of any steel wires that are linked to the spi setup these are a hassle and sources of sharp edge and loose strands that can damage your spinnaker. I will continue as a listing of points and assume you have a single line setup. :

Summary :

Keep your spinnaker in your snuffer setup with the retrieval line/halyard and sheet still attached to it. Use only 3 mm dyneema lines with a well made outer mantle; don't go cheap on this because there are alot of imitation dyneema lines out there of very questionable quality. Use quick knots I describe and in some cases you don't even have to put your boat over at the last stage. I assume your boat is fully rigged and the spi is dry and that your are packing up. Rigging the boat is the exact same steps in reverse. People having permanent waterfront mast up storage are best served by a different method which I will not describe here now as I don't think Berny (and many Americans/ Australians) have that.


-1- Assume the spi is pulled out a little with both halyards more or less tight. The spi sheet is either permanently fitted to the spi by the middle or by one end. Leave that attached and run the sheet back through its blocks and bundle the line and shoove it partly down the snuffer from the front (snuffer mouth). Make sure that you pass to the back of both halyards, this to prevent screw-ups and tangles later when rigging the spi again. The spi halyard is stored that way.

-2- Grap both the tack and head eyes of the spinnaker (halyards are still attached) and put them on top of eachother and run a small line through them which you also tie to the front of the snuffer mouth or the pole just in front of it. NOW detach both halyards.

-3- Grap the top halyard and pull it all the way through the mast blocks, beam blocks and trampoline so you end up with a bundle of line of which one end runs into the rear of the snuffer and is still attached as a retrieval line to the spi. You never take the retieval line of its patches in this method. This saves alot of time and hassle, especially when rigging in strong winds. When rigging the spi setup later you just flip the boat over and run the halyard up the mast manually, this is alot quickler and simpler then any other method. Besides most crews want to fine tune their batten tensions like this anyway so most are flipping their boats over anyway. (with some halyard setups flipping the boat over is NOT necessary and the boat can stay upright, alot of F18's are having this slightly different system. It has other advantages too, more about this later). So you now tidy the retrieval/top halyard and you shoove it into the rear of the snuffer sock, it is stored there.

-4- I assume your tack halyard is secured to your pole itself with one end, run this line through its blocks and throw it in the snuffer sock as well from the front. The spinnaker is now fully detached from the boat. Now only we need to take off the spi pole

-5- Untie the strut or line that keeps the pole up in the middle (of the pole) the pole will now drop to the ground (gently of course). This will slacken ALL pole support lines. Creating the most slack in your mid pole support lines. Detach these from your bridle points. I use quick knots here but some use snap shackles or sister clips, other small sail hooks. That is all personal preference, as these lines are always under tension when the pole is fitted so none of these fastening methods will become undone. I use a figure 8 knot at the end of the dyneema line and just loop it through the eye of the bridle wire and then loop it once underneath itself (I think this is called a "singe hitch" knot). That is all. Lightweight, cheap and simple. Note that these methods all allows the lines to be of fixed length so your pole is always at the same position EVEN when reraking your mast. Throw the lines in the snuffer sock through the mouth, they stay permanently fixed to the pole.

-6- Now detach the pole from the mainbeam and slide the pole a little under the boat and now detach the front support lines. Best is to have large bowline knot loops at the pole end and throw these over the pole tip and looping them once around. They can't slide down the pole as the saddle taking the tack halyard block will be in the way. ... Now that these tip support lines are slack it will be very easy to slide them off the pole tip. The pole is now fully detached and ready to be put in the trailer.




The spinnaker setup is now fully removed from the boat with the possible exception of the pole tip support lines if you are using the loop trick as described above. This is not an issue when you are packing up the boat on the trailer or when you are always sailing with a spinnaker. But if you want to switch from spi-sailing to non-spi sailing frequently then it may be smart to use a different quick release setup on these tip support lines. This new trick will allow you to remove ALL spi related gear except mainbeam blocks and cleats from the boat in the same 5 minutes.

Ths trick goes as follows :

Use bowlines knots to permanent tie the tip lines to the end of the pole running them through the eyestrap that holds the tack halyard block. At the other end (bows) have a reasonably sized bowline loop and have the end of the line run an additional (say) 100 mm. In this loose end tie a figure 8 knot. Now push the loop through the hole in the bow and swing the loose end with the figure 8 knot around the bow and run it through the loop. Then pull on the support line so you are trying to pull the loop back out through the hole in the bow. The system will jam and hold the line. See picture.

[Linked Image]

Detaching goes in reverse. The support lines can now stay fixed to the spi pole and come of the boat each time leaving a clean "A cat" like uni-rigged singlehander that the 430 originally was. Handy for lazy evening sails or when getting out for a quick sail. All other steps (when fitting the spi) remain the same.

With this setup. rigging and derigging the spinnaker must be at max a 5 minute job and can be done singlehandedly. The spi setup has now also become a neat single package that can be thrown on your trailer, waiting for use next time. It will also be impossible to misplace any parts as all are permanently fixed to either the boat or pole.

If the spi is really wet then at home you can pull out the spi (without detaching any lines !) and have it dry in your shed only to be pulled back in using the retrieval line that is still fitted when it is dry. Thus ending up at the same tidy package again.

As said earlier, rigging the spi are the same steps in reverse.


Now for the newer style halyard system that don't require the boat to be flipped over.
This system can still be done as a single-line system althought alot of sailors are modifying it into a double-line system. Personally I really do prefer the single line systems on boats that are singlehanded often. Okay, so instead of having the double block running along side of the spi pole, this new system has the double block run along side the mast. Tune the line lengths such that during a hoist this double block comes all the way down the mast to say within 1 mtr of the mast base plate. Of course we won't hoist the spi on land, but when detaching the top halyard from the spi we can tie another line (about 8 mtr length) to the top halyard line and of course to the bottom of the mast and then pull the double block down the mast by pulling on the retrieval line. If we first secure the double block in this low position and only then pull the retrieval line through all the blocks and trampoline then we don't have to flip boat over when fitting the spi again. Because the double block it needs to run though in now within reach even with the boat upright and the mast raised. This block and retrieval line will then be hoisted to their intended position by pulling the extra line we added earlier and then detaching it.

There are some variations to these setups but basically the core to them is the same and once that is understood then is easy to adjust this core to your personal situation and liking. But remember don't let anybody tell you that is takes more then 5 minutes to rig and derig a spi if you are using a well thought out procedure, because it really can be done that quickly.

Good luck,

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 07/10/06 05:48 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Quick rigging and derigging spi (a method) [Re: Wouter] #75688
07/10/06 07:23 AM
07/10/06 07:23 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 461
Sydney Australia
Berny Offline OP
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Berny  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 461
Sydney Australia
Ok Wouter, good stuff, thanks a lot.

Mate, it's no longer the rigging time which worries me. Having rigged the boat using several different procedures I now have what I believe is quite an efficient method that works for me.
I don't roll my boats for rigging ever. It's a process which has the potential to damage the hulls so I don't do it.

I tried leaving the spi in the sock with the retrieval and tack lines attached. It meant running the halyard through all the blocks and up the mast before raising the mast, which because I raise the mast from the front, turned out to be a nightmare threading the halyard and stays. I never got it right first time in several attempts which just seemed to prolong the agony. Now I detach the all the lines bar the pole vertical tensioner and tackline which both stay with the pole.

To rig, I simply run the halyard up the mast before raising it. After raising the mast, I fit the pole using a single pin. Next I attach the single vertical tensioner [permanently fixed to the pole] to the bridle using a snap shackle. Then I attach and tension the two bow lines to the pole end using simple stop knots at the bow and jam cleats on the pole end. I do all this before I tension the rig. Next, I thread the halyard to, and through the snuffer, connect the other end to the spi top, attach the tackline [which stays attached to the pole] to the tack, set the kite and thread the retrieval line. You gotta set the spi anyway to be sure it's all gone ok so it's no big deal to thread the retriever while it's up.
After I stow the kite, I toss the main up and I'm off,............well sort of <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Currently it's taking me about a half hour longer to rig and I'm OK with that. It's getting faster every time and I think I can probably get it down to around 20 minutes. I'm a slow rigger anyway <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Really, I guess I'm still debating the question of simplicity and purity against the inherent complications of spi sailing single handed.

Re: First pics [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver] #75689
07/10/06 08:12 AM
07/10/06 08:12 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
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Jalani  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Steve,

We have some quick Dart 18s in the UK! Double trapped I have to agree we do easily sail away from them, but in the medium to light stuff we are about the same speed.

I guess I was just trying to illustrate that carrying the pole and gear upwind is definitely worth it for the ride downhill! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Glad to hear that the Mozzie is such a litle demon! I'm looking forward to racing against a few? if some can make it over to Singapore next year from SA and Oz?


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Re: First pics [Re: Jalani] #75690
07/10/06 08:16 AM
07/10/06 08:16 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


I too find the dart 18 to be surprisingly quick upwind in some conditions, but then again the dart 18 class, although small, is still very race active and that breeds skilled sailors.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: First pics [Re: Wouter] #75691
07/14/06 10:59 PM
07/14/06 10:59 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 461
Sydney Australia
Berny Offline OP
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Berny  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 461
Sydney Australia
I've just been re-reading this thread, and the further I get into spi sailing, in retrospect there is lots of good info here which is still helping. I'm thankful for all the assistance you've all given me in getting the boat sorted. I would just like to say that I appreciate it.
Thanks,
Bern

Last edited by Berny; 07/14/06 11:40 PM.
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