A very specific question about a situation I observed last wednesday during our dear monohullers wednesday night beercan race..

At the start, one boat is lining up for pole position with 30 seconds to go. Sails out and almost dead in the water. Boat to leeward does the same, and they are slowly progressing towards the line. From windward and aft comes a third monohull, reaching down behind them and with 10 seconds to go comes up close hauled and with top speed to leeward of them. As the seconds tick down to start, there is much shouting as there is just not room for all three below the starboard marker (navigable water on both sides of the marker, no RC boat). In addition the boat most to leeward is pointing higher than the two to windward and has better speed, shouting "up up up".

Question is, what shall the windward boat do if it is to late to shoot over the marker (a soft marker in this instance). There is overlap between the three.

Claim room, do circles and sail the course?
Run over the marker, go back and re-start?
Or do as was done here, claim room, refuse to come up, protest the most leeward boat on the grounds that he can not luff that late forcing him into the marker (to late to tack or go over), and sail the course?

If the leeward screamer had that much speed on, they should have been clear and gone pretty quickly... that said, the boats above him are obligated to come up, no if's and's or but's. If that means they won't make that starting mark, that is regretable but unavoidable.

The leeward screamer, however, MUST give room and opportunity for the nearly stationary boats above him to avoid and give him the right of way he has just claimed by coming in fast from behind and below them. There is also a limit to which he can bring them up.

In any case, you don't indicate there was contact. IMO, the leeward boat should take his fast, clear start, chuckle into his drink, and continue on his way. The two slow boats on the line are not entitled to room of any sort. If the windward-most boat (or both of them for that matter) couldn't make the starting mark after giving the leeward boat his rights, then they're suffering from choosing a bad parking spot. Thou shalt not be a barge-a$$. Tack away, gybe around and start late.

John,

there was no contact, the.. "leeward screamer" (I like that term), gave them both room and time. Problem is that the boat nearest the mark probably did not have the opportunity to tack away or shoot over the mark (they was not fully powered up so the leeward boat had all advantages) but could perhaps have choosen to run over the mark instead.
Windward boats claimed that the leeward boat was luffing them after the start, and that the leeward boat did not sail its proper course.

I also think as you do, but I am not sure what is right when the uppermost boat dont have time to avoid the mark if he tacks away. Btw: the two windwards was not barging, they was close hauled and fetching the mark when the "leeward screamer" used his better speed (and thus, better pointing ability) to force them up.

Sounds like the leeward boat had his thinking cap on while the other two were dozing. Nice going. The most windward boat should either have overrun the mark or tacked. With his lack of steerage he'd have ended up head to wind but that's just his tough luck.
If you're trying to park on the line you need to try and protect your leeward lane out of there. I've thought a few times about leaving my tiller extension sticking out to leeward for precisely this reason, I can't see anything in the rules that would prevent it, and because of it's length it should buy me a clear half boat's width or more. I've seen some 49ers benefit from having their double tillers because the leeward tiller sticks out beyond the leeward rack.

I thought there was no limit prior to the start- you can luff them up head to wind. After the start then you can play the "proper course" argument but even that gets dicey and I could never get a straight answer about that even at the seminar.

There is no "proper course" before the start. A leeward boat has all the luffing rights in the world providing she give the windward boat time and opportunity to react. If a boat reaches down below a windward boat from behind, gets overlap, then shoots up really high (because of momentum) saying up, up, up that does not sound like they gave time and opportunity for the weather boats to react. If the weather boats are dead in the water with sails luffing all they can do is sit there and do nothing. If they are making enough way to have steerage they are obligated to keep clear as best they can. They (boats to weather) have no rights for room at the start flag if there is no damage that can occur from hitting it.

This is racing. The start is probably the most exciting part of it. It is your best strategy to be in a place that you are in the right over everyone around you and can get a great start...WOW! Let's go sailing.

Later,
Dan

I vaguely remember something about crew and equipment being in "normal position" or the like. You'd probably have to defend a protest on that.

John,

Don't have the rules in front of me, but I'm pretty sure you're wrong. The HP dinghy's double tillers is equipment in the normal position. Swinging the extension over to the opposite tack, when you'd normally use it on the windward side after the start, to me is a violation. You can say the wind was not heavy enough, at that specific time, to warrant its use, in that case it should trail the boat. Prior to a tack or gybe, you have a case.

That's exactly right, Patrick - you can luff them up to head-to-wind, but no further. The defense here is to get head-to-wind and advertise you have done so. Be honest. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Edit - The proper course thing will always be dicey and somewhat subjective. Going upwind after the start to the first mark is less blurry than being in the middle of the course on the first downwind... judges I know have told me that proper course becomes crystal clear with proximity to marks of the course, both approaching and leaving. In some cases it is obvious that someone is simply defending a position rather than sailing to the next mark as though the other boat weren't present. That has been the litmus test in protest hearings I've seen conducted.

so what is the proper course when racing? my understanding is that you can't head someone up if you are already pointing 10 or so degrees above the mark.

Sorry - was editing my reply as you posted. I'm no judge, but I'm pretty sure that nobody will assign a definative number (e.g., 10 degrees) to the "proper course" rule. It is specific to situations. Better to stay out of the room on that one IMO - too subjective. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Whoa whoa whoa there.

Read the rule below carefully. At the start they were overlapped. There is no proper course before the start. Therefore the leeward boat can luff as high as she wants before or after the start. But of course has to give the windward boat room and time to react. I'd have to hear the protest in order to asertain if room and time was given.

17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE

17.1 If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.

17.2 Except on a beat to windward, while a boat is less than two of her hull lengths from a leeward boat or a boat clear astern steering a course to leeward of her, she shall not sail below her proper course unless she gybes.

Mike Hill
www.stlouiscats.com

PTP:


You will most often not need it, but if sailing in a mixed fleet proper course might differ wildly. Especially so downwind.
If you go trough the case book, you will find lots of examples of proper course and how to handle it. If you are in doubt, the other boat is sailing proper course <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
http://www.sailing.org/rrs2005/casebook2005.pdf


Thanks for the replies on the original question. Lets go hair splitting..

The "leeward did not give us time to avoid him" defense, would that hold up as there is time to avoid him, but you will have to hit the mark?
I dont see how that defense can hold if windward have time to tack off, so lets disregard that.

What if the windward marker was an iron pole, or an inflatable with some sort of metal on top and bottm (there are some sort of fishermans marker with a huge iron ring on top that is often used here. I dont go near the thing!). Obviously, you would get some serious damage from hitting an iron pole, and light damage from hitting the "fishermans marker"?
I that case, believe that leeward would have to give both boats to windward room to avoid damage to their boats, but must/should protest. We are still asuming that boats to windward dont have time to tack off or shoot over the mark.

Agreed. You need to be VERY carefull with things like this or you get into the sportsmanship areas !

As for proper course (when it applies) is (paraphrasing) "the course you would sail, in the absence of other boats, to finish in the quickest time" - so basically anything you can justify to a protest Ctte !!!!!!

I'm not sure, but does the start mark count as an obstruction in this case? If it does, then the leeward screamer can't force you to hit it, and the slow windward boats aren't barging because they aren't causing the overlap. The boat that becomes the give way boat doesn't have to anticipate the situation, but only needs to start responding promptly after the overlap was created. It would be one thing if they were in the middle of the line, then the windward boat would have to come up even if it meant going over the line, but if he would have to hit the mark to come up enough, I say he's obstructed and the leeward screamer needs to just settle for his speed advantage, and not get greedy and try to force an OCS on the other guys....

A 10,000 lb monohull can almost pirouette in its length. Deep centerboards/keels with huge rudders allow them to tack away in 4 or 5 feet! I don’t think this is a problem of navigable water or ability to give way as the situation was described. I switched to monohull racing for a period while my kids were very small… I am sure there are exceptions but in general I found that the majority of monohull cruiser/racers struggle with pre-start maneuvering especially as compared to cat racers. This may be because cat racers tend to travel and see a wider range of skills than your local club racing or it might be the boat weight allows faster advancement in cats. The circumstance reported here seemed quite common in monohull club racing for me… I would guess that both windward boats saw what was happening but failed to see forward to the consequences of attempting to hold their course. If they would have seen this, they would have footed as they saw the boat approaching, protecting their leeward while simultaneously building boat speed for the start. Parking 10,000 lbs on the starting line is never, ever a good tactic especially when it may take 30-60 seconds to get to boat speed. This sounds like an attempt to use the rules to cover for a very bad decision on where to start. The leeward screamer is the good guy in this story.

It depends...This is why in large start you will find an Inner distance mark. It protects the ctte boat as if barging occurs, there is an excape route to windward of the start line but still below the ctte boat.

Also, depends on what stb end marker is. If it's a small bouy then you may be able to force someone to hit it, it it's a 5 ton channel market, then no.

Your "propper course" is the course you would normally take to get to the mark if no other boats around. This could mean you are heading 20 deg above a mark if there is a strong current running etc. You only have to sail your propper course in some situations.

Tiger Mike

Not if it is surrounded by navigatable water. IMHO as soon as the overlap started, the windward boats needed to pull on some main and shortly there after round up with a bit of tiller. If they did this, they would survive a protest but they would have to act very quickly.

Reaper

I guess I was interpreting the setup as the windward boat already having its bow already past the mark to where initiating the turn to come up would hit it. If the boats were far enough back to where windward could come up, and miss the mark, well hopefully his sportsmanship will let him accept getting luffed to the wrong side of the mark gracefully...