Hi,

I'm looking to buy a F16 cat (Blade, Stealth, ...).
Is there anyone from the States here, were there are already some more F16 sailing, which can provide me with race-results against F18 ?

The only results against F18 I find here in Belgium are from the Swell Spitfire. In Belgium there are no F16, so I will always be racing F18, therefore it's important to me to get them compared.

Thanks !

Gill

Hi Gill
I sail solo against F18's and A Class. We are all approximately the same standard. I'm 175cm tall and weigh 77kgs. We can practically predict who will win a race before it has started based on the wind strength alone. Lightwinds 'A' medium F16 strong F18. If you go two up then the stronger the wind the more likely you are to beat the F18. However, alot will depend on which scoring system you use. At our Club we have just changed from SCHRS to Texel (both formula based) whilst in America they can use USPN (based on elapsed times). This makes a considerable difference to their ratings:

type texel uspn
F16 1.00 1.07
A Class 1.01 1.03
F18 1.01 0.99

As you can see now would be a good time to pack your bags, move to the USA and kick some F18 butt. Or do the American F16 sailors eat to many Mc Donalds to increase their rating.
On a more serious note, yes you can beat F18 sailors of a similar standard whether solo or two up but you will find it more often than not happen during a certain wind range.
You will not be disapionted with a F16 they are a much more enjoyable boat to take around a course compared to those overweight F18's
Go For It.

I think you'll find it comes down to sailors rather than boats. In my view the Spitfire and F18s are well matched. I have done well on my Spitfire (within the club, racing against F18s) - I put it down to getting the crew right (far more important than the boat), working at making no mistakes and sailing no further than I have to. Check out the results on our club page if you want some club level comparisons!

Hi there,

Are you talking about line honours or handicap?

Tiger Mike.

Gill
If you are still interested in F16 then come and have a sail on my Stealth F16 (narrow beams) during Mumbles week, August 14-18. We can put you up and probably introduce you to John Pierce who desgined and manufactures the Stealth.
We can beat F18's over the water but don't like to do it to often as they are bigger than us!!!!!!

Sure is a lot of those overweight F18's running around though, I wonder why that is.

And are you saying that heavy crews are slow... The US F16 guys are saying crew weight doesn't make a difference. Which is it?

If the F16 is indeed as fast as the F18 then why don't you fix your number or better yet... ask your respective race committees to race straight up with the F18's.

Dave

Done that plenty off times, without results, so don't blame this one on us.

For some reason US PN numbers are holy even when they are patently wrong.





We are saying neither. We are saying that crew weight on fast spi boats matters a whole lot less then many sailors think. If you put 440 lbs on a F16 then yes you will indeed be noticeably slower. However the range 275 lbs to 350 lbs seems very evenly matched.

Wouter

Geez Ding, things getting a little slow at work again so your slinking ouround the 16 site <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You are welcome to lead the petition for US Sailing to adopt the Texel system and drop Portsmouth. I am sure Darlene has enough head aches and would be happy to switch.

I will race you guys straight up. I just enjoy the competition. Hell I will race the I20s straight up. Every once in a while we beat a few. But you know as well as me that has nothing to do with the F16 being as fast as an I20, JC will wipe either of our clocks clean so to speak because he can run his boat to what ever number system you choose to implement.

And nobody ever claimed weight does not matter. On a spin boat it matters less than a non-spin, but the most important factor in weight is where you place it. A heavy team that moves around to keep their boat in ballance will beat a light team on an untrimmed boat every time. Also as soon as you reach the point of having to work to depower your rig, the advantage of less weight is gone. Certain conditions will alwys favor certain boats, weights, or sailing styles, you have to look at the whole picture.

Anyway, I degress, I will be ahppy to sign a petitiion or help if you want to lead the charge to change systems. With the US finally accepting the international formula (Now they almost finaly have the USF18 rules in compliance, at least most of the ones that matter)concept it makes sense to run with it in ratings systems as well.

You still comming Sat?

Plug the Current Max's into the CURRENT SCHRS calc on the website and see what you get. I believe you can have plates that measure any size you want. If you go for plates that are 75cm blow the water and 25cm wide, see what the calc brings up ! (max luff length of 8.1m, 5m lenght etc).

We then get the SCHRS F18 rating (1.01) assigned to the F16's as well. Like we always intended and as we had for several years in the past already.

Currently we have the SCHRS rating of 1.02 which is 1 % slower but that is because SHCRS is still using our old mainsail and jib sizes despite repeated requests from our side to change that. Additionally 80 % of the F16 boats aren't using as efficient boards as 0.25 x 0.75 either. I think only the Stealths are using these at this time.

In time however I see all F16's converge to rought 0.25 x 0.75 boards and SCHRS will soon change our sailarea's I'm sure bringing us back up to F18's

Still what is 1 % difference really. In the USA the F16's are rating no less then 5 % slower then the F18's. Now that is something to get anxious about.

Still Darlene is a sweetheart and exceptionally willing to listen to us. Sadly, other forces and even some US race data are preventing a quick convergence of the number.

Wouter

Gilo, The boats are pretty similar in speed, the biggest difference is with the F18 you must always race with crew, no Uni option (unless your home club allows it). With the F16, you have the option of racing without crew. So if you will always be racing with crew, you can probably pick up a used F18 cheaper, especially if there are alot of them in your area looking to upgrade to the "newest" F18. But if you think you might not have regular crew for every race, and you may be hualing that boat up and down the beach alone sometimes, the 170lb. lighter F16 might be a better fit for you. I think you will be compettive without a handicap vs. F18's once you get some time on the boat.

It's like this, do my job which quite boring, or start a [censored] fight with you guys... Which would you pick? Besides someone has to keep you guys honest.

Anyway, with regards to weight... don't say "well if the fat boys sail better than the light teams then it's okay". When we have these discussions you know we have to assume that the sailing abilities are equal and both teams know how to place their weight. I think we are agreed that fat is not fast, and a fat team has to do it just a bit better most of the time. It's just like when a F16 beats an F18 or N20... IT AINT THE FREAKING BOAT!

Timbo, the I20 and F18 teams are not going to be surprised by how the F16 carries weight. The way an I20 carries 350 pounds and they way an F16 carries 350 pounds is HUGE!!! And yes, I've sailed an F16 in a breeze!

Second thing the only reason I pulled your chain about the rating is because I read post after post claiming that the F16 is on par with the F18... and it's not. That's why the numbers are different. I'm calling you guys out on that bit of advertising. And for those that truly believe the F16 and F18 are equal I want to start seeing results where you guys are sailing straight up against the F18's.

As for leading the petition drive, isn't it you guys that want to play in our sand box?

Dave

Yuk! You don't have cats do you? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

btw- I was flinging *noodle* on another site if you really want to start some *noodle* <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Come on Dave, you know I didn't say the F16 can carry as much wt. as a F18 or I20, I just said the crews from the bigger boats would be surprized at how WELL the Blade can cary that wt. But they had better learn to move that wt. around on the boat because you are missing 4 feet of hull vs. the I 20 so wt. placement is much more important on the F16's. and exact mast rotation is much more important with the Super Wing mast. I love all cats, even that p.o.s. Escape in my backyard! But if the big boys considering the Alter Cup think they are "too big" for a F16, I think they will be surprized, that's all I meant. Now get back to your own "NAF18 forum" (why didn't they just use the International rules in the first place?? Do you guys ride the short bus? WTF?) Or is Wouter over there pulling your chain? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

It is the same old ^&## again. The short term memory loss with you guys is almost pathological

Here is an example. I beat everybody (incl all I-20's and all but 1 F18's) to the line in what were light wind conditions.

http://www.wvz.vuurwerk.nl/190605.html

Besides you obviously have no sailed or raced either the Stealth F16 or Blade F16 looking at your weight comments. We all know the Taipan is noticeably more weight sensitive, never made a secret of it either.

Besides a I-20 one-design with 350 lbs on board is a awful monster that gets hammered in anything over 12 knots. Yep that is personal experience, I've beated that boat more across the line this year then they beaten me. Sorry mate, bigger isn't always better.

Here some more result, sadly a little less boats.

http://www.wvz.vuurwerk.nl/uitslag250606.html

Winds were never over 10 knots. Besides I'm really not that good a sailor and Frank only had the boat for 7 weeks now.

But of course you know that very well, else you won't be here setting us "straight" would you now ?

How many I-20's made the bouy race events the last two times ? Was that more or less then the F16 class which had made class in all of them ?

Wouter

Yep..... We all read here too and have a bit of a chuckle <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

What is going on with this F16 vs F18 thing..... Sounds a bit like little brother syndrome.

The F16ers are always boasting about how they compare to the F18ers but the F18ers could not give a rats because our boats are fast, fun to sail (like yours) but we have one of the best International fleets in Sailing. Come back to us when you are getting 3 figures at a major regatta or healthy double figures at a club race or weekend bash. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> ......... Sorry bit harsh there.

Market to what you are good at, which is versatility (1 or 2 up) and light performance boat for lighter crew weights.

Leave the F18s to market what they are good at... High performance, high level, big fleet International racing.

Compare F16 racing to F18 racing and the F16s will get ripped to shreds.

Don't get me wrong, I love the F16 but 2 average blokes at 150 to 165 kg will just not be competitive on a sloop. At 13o to 150 and that's another story........ 2 different markets.

Heee Hawww, this should get the thread rollin'

Any boat can beat any other boat on any particular day, in any particular conditions or any particular point of sail.

A better reflection of results would be to record results over several regattas with healthy numbers of boats in each class racing side by side and work on the averages.

You stirring the pot again TA? Spent too much time on SA mate.

You forgot to add a few more thing to what F18s are good at F18s ... High performance, high level, big fleet International racing, Hernias, Bad Backs

Personally, I think that any crew weight over 150kg on an F16 is just silly. Will be getting a boat later on this year and train up for Singapore. Being 70kg myself, aiming for a crew less than 60. Never had a problem being overpowered. Actually went better in the heavier stuff.

JC

Indeed, yes, it is appearing to be much like the big brother syndrome.

Bigger brother can't stand it that baby is snapping at his heels and is now strolling over to set baby straight.

If we are truly so far behind, then why are you guys trying so hard to put us in our place ?

Few weeks ago the A-cat sailors and now the F18 sailors. Seems to me that we F16 sailors are making more progress then we till now had allowed ourselfs to believe.

I still cherish the moment when 3 weeks ago a nacra I-20 One-design sailor mentioned that the lightweightness was the only good point about my boat. In the racing that followed that day he pretty much got beaten by both F16's to the line. You just can't buy poetic justice like that. Not even for the amount that Marstrom charges for their outdated hulls. And that is a WHOLE lot. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

Hey Champ, how's life off shore........ Give us a yell when you come back to visit and we can catch up for a few pints.

Saw you advertising for a platform.... What's your price range and I'll keep an eye out. Few possibilities out there.


Mate, it's all about the beach wheels. I have dragged many a Taipan up the beach which required a lot more effort than pulling up our Cap. After racing, Brent and I could not physically pull out T back up the beach. The Cap @15 Kg heavier with a good set of beach wheels, we don’t even raise a sweat.......... Gotta go the big beach wheels.

Catch up latter and good sailing to you.