First, I am not pretending to be an expert. I want to develop a fast, light beach cat that is easily righted by me alone and that I can be dry on and extend myself. There are no F16s anywhere near me to race and I am posting this because the cat I am starting with is a Taipan 4.9.
It is an older boat and needs a birthday. I have bought a second hand A class carbon mast and will take advantage of about two extra feet of height.
I will have a fat top main and a roller furling larger original size jib and no genny.
The attachment included is of the most controversial change to this boat. I have had these wings made and aim to also fit a curved main track.
I am hoping that in return for any constructive comments I will follow through with how this turns out so you can take from it what you might.

So what are your final overall dimensions going to be?

If they take you outside of the F16 boxrule, and you're clearly not going to be T4.9 class legal, you'll just have a one-off 'blasting' boat. With the expense and effort you're going to would it not be worthwhile to work to a particular rule?

there is no F16 I know of in all of NZ. F18 have taken off in Auckland and that is Three huned Ks away. I have sport boats I could run against here and there are several Tornadoes. This is the only taipan I have heard of here so I thought... just make it the way I think it would really honk!

go for it why not !

Only thing praps would be A mast may not be up to it , with extra rig loads from jib and wings you have had made .

My experience of A class is to be at forefront of developement they don't tend to over engineer things like masts . if it all goes pear shaped there's prob loads of cheap ally Tor masts about !

I have an ole ally A mast which I thought of sticking on some ole hulls for a fun boat for kids and stick a spin on , but was advised mast would not be up frit .

Good Luck

ps you can always laminate more carbon onto mast if a prob, not pretty, but if youre just after a blast.

Warbird,
Would you mind telling me how heavy each wing is?
Regards,
Phill

Hi Warbird,

I put western red cedar timber cross ways inside my mast coated in epoxy glue. It has made the A carbon mast bullet proof, but it added some 3kg. which I needed to come up to minimum weight, with no rules for your cat, you may want to do it by a lighter method like laying extra carbon on the outside.

The mods you are talking about will probably be OK as long as you only want to have a blast upwind and beam reaching, from my experience heading downwind with that mast height and a big square top main will be difficult, if there is much wind around.

Have you sailed the standard Taipan much? They are a very fast cat as standard. Is the problem that the winds are predominatly light where you sail? The easiest way to add downwind power is a spinnaker.

A class rigs where put on 16ft. hulls many years ago, it was called a Graduate A class, it did OK but the full length A survived and the Graduate didn't. I think there is a message in this.

Regards Gary.

Generall speaking Warbird - it has been found that the weight of wings negates any theoretical gain of righting moment. Most of the boats that do carry wings are for comfortable cruising rather than out and out speed.

There have been a few notable exceptions of course, but those have gone the stupid amount of sail route!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Not weighed yet but best guess is 2-2.5kg each. This has been saved with mast gain.

Many thanks for that. Where exactly do you think extra carbon would be best placed? Wings will help with arthritis which comes and goes. I chose Jib not genny because I read here that the gains up wind bettered the gains down wind.
Everything I am doing can be undone and the wings can go on my old Hydra which I use for joyriding with friends. And yes, this is about reaching across the bay and racing the dolphins.

Arthritis which comes and goes.. I don't feel like watching home movies yet.

So Gary. rather than adding height to the mast it might be better to retain original height of Taipan ( which would have a strength gain for A mast by shortening ) and have two mains, one square top for more choice in wind strength and work with jib to see if the power gain is enough before maybe going to genny?

I think there must be a misunderstanding here. A spi will get you much, much, faster around a windward/leeward course, at a penalty hit in the area of 2% upwind. If you are going to do tight reaches, a overlapping jib (or selftacking jib) might be better, but once you get to a broad reach, a similar boat with a spi will leve the non-spi boat behind like it was anchored.

That is disapointing to hear... but not if it would be difinitive as it is to learn that I have asked the question. Sad thing for me is a live an a cat vacume here and 10 people say 10 diffrent things. I thought I read in this forum that single handed super sloops were banned from F16 compitition for that reason. bugger. But we are still talking faster on the reach.. as far as the rig strength and wings are concerned I would be fine as the boat is engineered for two people and will be carrying one.

You'll put some mesh on the wings, yes? Otherwise they'll have no diagonal strength, and I'm not sure about the strength of the channel sections, they look a bit light weight to hold an adult body. Will you trap off them or just hike?

The banning of super sloops had other reasons, all of them more political and practical in nature then any performance difference.

A uni-rig with spi will beat a super sloop singlehander around a course.

Wouter

I am assembling the boat with net tied tightly to check height etc. Then I will run it with old rig. If all is well I will run bolt rope tramp on three sides and secure with grommets at one end. So sit on boat and lean against and then sit into tramp and then sit on pipe with foot straps and then trap.
Curved sections are three mm 2X1 and pipe is regularly used for skiffs. But that does not meen they are strong enough and maybe I was too worried about looks and weight.

Well, I don't remember who said it although he must have been convincing.... "Super Sloop" sounds fast though doesn't it. : )
One good thing about the vacume I am in up here.... no politics.
Like I said. I am not an expert and this is just a project. My mistakes and disasters can only create more knowledge and thanks for your interest. If any feedback from you guys save me trouble I appreciate it.

Warbird,

To echo some comments above.

Wings will keep you drier, but not much really.

They wont gain you anything upwind as the weight/drag is cancelled out by drag etc

Use a Kite, not a Genoa. Almost all beach cats don't have overlapping jibs because as soon as you get some speed up they end up pushing too much air around the back on the mainsail. I would really urge you to scrap the idea of a Genoa and go for the kite instead.

Thank you, that makes sense.

Wings are an excellent place for your honey to take a nap! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Now, there's a real positive. : )

If you have a little one, it gives them something to hang onto. Also good for storage. Lots of positives, none of them competitive.

It will be interesting to see just how slow I have made it. : )

I think they look WEAK. Here's my daydream...

Conditions are getting good and you're trapped out off the wing. You ride over a larger wave and the bows come slamming down on the far side. The impact and your body weight breaks off the wing! You swing in toward the boat, impale yourself on the broken stump of the wing, and the boat capsizes. Evecerated is the term. You and your boat are found several hours later, capsized with your impaled and bloodless body is draped over the high side, skewered on the stump of a wing.

Just my daydream....no wings for me. There is no better feeling than the same story above while hanging from a wire in a comfortable harness.

Seriously guys, its too late for discouraging post. IF you have NOTHING positive to say aobut his project how about NO posts at all.

He is already into it, and has clearly stated there are NO F16's to sail competitively so he wants something different.

Robi, I think some people are just worried about his safety. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I, too, think those wings look pretty flimsy.

Hey Robi, I WAS being discouraging for the reason Mary said. I saw a real potential for injury that nobody had mentioned.

He has to define how he expects to sail. If the wings are for kids or wife to sleep or make sandwiches or whatever, fine. If you are a CAT sailor, then you're looking for big air and that REQUIRES being on the wire. You'll trap from the wings if you have them so...there you go. Dream your own nightmare image if it breaks. Look at the photo and tell me you would stand on that rig. Now tell me you would JUMP up and down on it. Now tell me you would wave jump a 6 foot swell while toe-hooked on the edge in 15+ knots. There is no way you'd risk it.

If you're a cucumber sandwich and iced-tea kind of sailor, buy a Hobie Getaway. They have wings AND a cooler.

Have fun.

They don't look all that strong to me either. If I was doing this I'd consider running an extra wire from the hounds to the centre of the outer rail to take some of the load off the wing.
Regards,
Phill

Simon,

Can you elaborate on this: "They wont gain you anything upwind as the weight/drag is cancelled out by drag etc".

Is the single advantage of wings on a cat with regular sail area only to keep it up in high winds?

You should write for B grade horror. : ) In that script least I would have died doing what I love.
My fantasy has you working hard and brilliantly from the back of the pack in wild weather after someone illegally destroys your start set up. It is the nationals and if you win you will go to the Worlds. Stunning skill and tactics see you take the race on the line to the cheers of eveyone you ever wanted to impress!
Then you wake up and realise it's back to the middle of the pack. : )

Hey, a grown up. thanks Robi, I am not here to p**s on anyones parade. You have the equipment I am mucking with and I genuinely have no one here to discuss it with. If the boat turns out to be weak, slow or or just plain silly I will post those results. My ego can handle that. You can say "told you so..." This is informations for the group (cat sailors) and that makes everyone faster.

**** of the Bay". He builds wings for 12 and 14 skiffs. I had to decide..safety or performance... I chose a little more on the edge because that is what the boat demanded. They do look like a recipe for carnage, but... No pain, no pain, right?

low self-esteem and big ego often leads to bla bla bla.
As Robi has said, I am invested in the idea if right or wrong. I am looking for helpful adult conversation and not wanting to provide a place for the nets version of road rage.

"The wings won't make you go any faster" line is a load of ... (assuming you plan to trap off them Hobie 17 style). They'll increase your righting moment and as a result your power and/or efficieny in stronger winds. Testing the strength isn't hard either. Get a couple of mates to sit on the other hull and test them on the shore. Because the water will allow some "give" you'll never put as big a load on them on the water as you can trapping and jumping on them on land.

If you decide you do want to add a kite let me know as I might be able to do you a deal on our old one.

Having said all that I really wish you'd gone F18, we're just busting for a good excuse for a road trip and would have brought our boats down from Auckland a couple of times a season to race you.

Keep in touch.

That is an intersting concept. Of course more wire is a pain but I will keep it in mind. What I am worried about is wracking fore and aft but I have hung off it and banged up and down on it on the trailer and have to imagine that water would give a little more cushioning. It lifts the boat and the trailer easily. But as has been mentioned it is the extreem crash that I do not predict that will bite me in the...
Also, I thought I could take a little licence aas it is a strickly one man wing..so..the hobie 17 has a 350lb limit...I am 170...

Robi. I am stilling getting the hang of the site and have made a reply in your box for someone else. No offence.

Until you drive the hulls under.

In light to medium air single handing will be a hoot! Did it a lot on a H-18 Magnum.

Funny the folks that say they look weak. 12mm dyneema looks week, yes it breaking point is around 2000bls aint it? (just an example)

Lets not judge a book by its cover.

I myself, cant wait to see the finished product and some nice high res images. It will be interesting to see a T4.9 with wings in big air. I am sure the show of splash will be spectacular.

Even when you drive the hulls under you will not stop instantly and even if you did you'd be sliding across the wing, not into it.

Clearly. wings are not new, just reviled in some circles. If they were genericly unsafe they would be gone. My worry is that I have done something that will fail because of the type of boat I am using. One of the deciding factors to go ahead was that I have often read the Taipan, while light it is a tough platform. Actually my main worry is the section where I am bolting on and that was one of the main reasons I posted here. To see if anyone had had major worries in that area of the boat.
What I have so far is.
Genoa might not create xtra speed because of backwinding main.
Construction possibly light and dangerous.
Genny probably faster option.
Possible wire to mast section.
A class carbon mast may not take weights... but I have Garys fix it for that.

Thanks

Thanks for that and now I can feel the challenge becoming a worry! : )
If I can create a good photo of speed or a wreck I will post for sure. If it's a wreck I hope I can laugh as loud baout it as you will!

Thanks for the offer of a kite and I wil remember it.
The decision of boat was budget and availableity and I have no possible crew here.
In my mind the boat has been designed to hang up some giants in 5 to 12 knots. After that on a boat like this I will be in untested territory but mostly it will provide me with a great ride up to the Cavallies in the stunning sea breezes we get here..
While I LOVE heavy weather it has been in 80s style and quite agricultural boats so I am expecting to have some, shall we say, issues with the new speeds.
Regarding a road trip.. My freind and sailing buddy here has a superb B&B on the sea. I would say room for four 18s........ We would love any contact with cat sailers but I can't race you until this thing is going as our other rides are Hydras... but if you needed a crew who was keen and willing to learn for the day....

Hi Warbird

The 4.9 is a strong boat, and the wings look like a lot of fun. A speed contest was just run on the San Fransico Bay--your winged 4.9 would be an awesome boat for such an event. Of course, high cartwheeling potential...but we've all taken our "lumps" in the name of speed. Good luck and post some fast GPS tracks whe you get them.
Rgds,

I am hoping to lessen cartwheeling potential by adding dagger rudders and foils to them. People are saying this has a softening affect on hobie horsing and helps to stop the plunge of the nose. Yes, I am strengthening the sterns..
It is not my intention to run out and hit top speed first time out. I like to build up to things while looking for the trouble that might be arriving.
Thanks for the good wishes.

by the way, what boats showed well in that event?

Warbird,

Don't listen too much to the nay sailors , eeehh nay sayers, I for one am very interested in your results.

Good luck

Wouter

I don't think your taipan will break easily, even with your current setup. The boat has held up extremely well even in big wind and big seas with two big guys beating the hell out of it. Anything will break at a certain point but with the Taipan this point is pretty far away.

Wouter

No garantees but I don't think you are in as much risk as the others say. The way the wings are loaded doesn't seem to much. But then again only trying them out will have you be sure. I would try them personally, they don't look to dangerous to me.

Wouter

Wouter, I know you take engineering seriously so I appreciate what you say.
Like you say I have to suck the lolly to see what it tastes like.
I have thought about the "weak and will break" ideas but do you know what?... if someone else had done it right I could just copy it.. that is why I have asked for help and insight.
My major worry is the hinge section and this I will have beefed up. I will also set in more glass and resin in the bolt sections for the beams.

The only concern I would have is the rear beam bolts. With the extra torsional twist of your weight on the wings this could cause extra load that the boat was originally engineered. Plus you also have a taller mast. The inside rear beam bolt on the Taipans have been known to break (and very loudly too).

JC

Yes, I had just posted I was going to boost it a little inside. I do perceve it as a risk. Sad to hear it has already happened..... mine is an early boat so I cannot imagine the manufacturer had mitigated the problem in any way... I will pay more attention after your advice.

How fast is that?

Kites and sailboarders and multihulls--fastest cat in attachment.

I will not pretend I am not freaked out by crash off the wings. Yes.. I think lose footing, slide forward, stop myself with mainsheet, swing in, spin backwards over the wing and unable to gain footing or ease weight off wire etc. etc.... I have been told by those who have gone before me not to predict a future and concentrate on doing what I have in front of me well. : )
I am making the bullet, maybe I will get someone else to fire it. : )

Wow!.. is a fast cat a great thing to look at or what??!! Photo goes into my slideshow.... regards kites etc..they are a differrent medium and wonderful but I am invested in two hulls, that is in my heart. You have to admire the gonads on a person who tries to ride something that can blow him or her off the water and into the nearby appartment buildings though eh?

Warbird,

I've just been thinking about your boat. With regards to your A-cat Rig, the biggest concern is that it won't be able to handle the increased righting moment of your boat. This will manifest itself as a lack of strength in compression. With this in mind I'd recommend increasing the length of your spreaders. This will allow you to provide the same (or more) side support to the mast while reducing the amount of compression.

Height is in question after reading some of the posts here about A class engineering. I am thinking it is a natural consequence of shortening the mast to more like a Taipan that the sail will dump less air because of the hounds being closer to the head. The boat, remember has a much larger foot than an A, so sail area including jib is much greater meaning that power on a reach is still all there so long as I can get the slot right, close the leach and I get a gain in a lower centre of effort because of shorter rig.
The Taipan is a one man ONE sail boat and I am using the wings to get considerably more power to weight than the two up version. As the spreaders are acutually a part of the mast I think a little shorter in the main might be the easiest solution.
Again, I have to say I am no expert. I am a back yard bunny and if what I say is silly go for it and tell me.
Your replies ARE influencing me and I will state what I have gained here and what you guys have changed.

Best thing to do is stand on them on the hard before going sailing. A few bounces would sort any discrepancies. If you end up on your butt you'll know they aren't strong enough as I suspect.

I have already hung off them, bounced on them (not VERY hard) and liftted the boat and trailer its tied to. The monkey in me was into that strait away.

Pete:

I have NEVER stuffed the boat going to weather with new setup. Only had to feather a few times in 20+ winds. Here is current setup. Stuffed a few times downwind, but just slowed a bit and popped right out. Warbird it will be a HOOT when you get it worked out.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
"Stress Free" # 007

Here is reacher;

Doug

Yehaw! A positive reply with reason to be optimistic. Reacher on your boat looks breat, well done.
I have checked your album and you have a little more ballast than me for the bigger winds. : )
Many thanks.

Warbird:

What do you weight. The boat is VERY manageable. If wind is to much, just travel out a bit and feather up in the puffs. It is a HOOT. We went out in 10-15 knots this weekend and had a blast.

Doug and Ashleigh Snell
Hobie 17 "Stress Free"
www.tcdyc.com

I am jealous! i spent the weekend house bound with hand damage after using a slim sheet and cutting them up. I think I am about 80kg at present.
Before I committed to this project I had a look around for an H17 and could not find one. Then I thought what the hell I have no F16s or Taipans to race against... take what I can from H17 and remain lighter on the beach. I am really enjoying the rebuild as I bet you did and I bet you love the result of your work.
The set up you have looks very much like my style and I am very happy I have it in the mix.
How do you find the rolled reacher with windage and if you can be bothered, no hurry, I would love a photo of the reacher system as the link you gave me is not very clear and I can't find a better shot of it.
I am pitching my boat for 8/15 and imagine it will be happy in those winds.
I am clear the speeds will be quicker than I am used to but also I am having many periods on my boats in high winds where everything seems to be in slow motion so am ready for the jump.

Warbird:

I don't really notice the windage when furled and the added advantages are nice. Whether in light air are really blowing the reacher is the way to go. I will try to get some photos soon for you as I now have a digital camera. If not this weekend I have a our big regatta on the 12th and 13th. Just remember you should furl going to weather in over 12 knots, it will beat the Pentex to death in over that. Reacher can't take the wind that the main can.

Doug

Thank you for the hint on furling.
My windrushs have taught me the value of arriving at the beach with one sail already rigged and I have often found the ease of return to beach just the bees knees.
Anytime with the photos would be great.

I had a thought about pressure on wing once trapping and of course the pressure DROPS hugely! a lot of the weight goes to the mast and rig and OFF the wings. The body weight is at that point pushing down the length of the frames and into the sheer strength of the bolts! It is far more likely I would break them while sit/hiking and working against foot straps with my body weight.

I think I need to chill about all of that.

Warbird:

My local guy said he could copy my reacher. Where are you located if you are interested?

Doug

New Zealand! : ) and I have someone lined up for the sails... : )
Bay of Islands...

l may visit you someday as I can work 3-4 week jobs anywhere once I get out of school as a NDT. My folks said NZ was AWESOME!! They traveled there before they passed away. Snow and sand at the same time. You will love the setup once you get it. Send photos when you get it done.

Doug
dsnell4 at houston dot rr dot com

sorry to hear about your folks. NZ is a special place but I have always wanted to sail the East coast of the states.

Warbird:

Mom was 89, Dad was 91, they had a good life. They are in a good place now. We are all going to move to Fort Walton-Pensacola Fla area wehn we get out of school. Fell in love with it when we got the Mystere 4.3 there.

Doug