Hi, I am currently retiring my poor old Nacra 5.7. I am thinking about getting a new FX One, since I heard it is a great boat to sail eihter by myself or with another person.

What do you thik about this boat? do you have any other suggestion? any reason for forgetting about the fx?

txs

Why not consider an F-16? That class looks poised to really take off now.

thanks for the tip. What kind of boat is that? I am not sure they are already available in Spain yet.

See www.formula16.org for more info on the formula rules, existing boats, photo gallery and more. The biggest plus is the ability to sail 1-up or 2-up depending on conditions and/or crew availability.

I feel a big sales (sails?) pitch coming.....

If you go to http://www.frappr.com/formula16classgroup then you can see where about halve of the class is located. We got a pretty good spread world wide for a class that is only 5 years old. Still there are a good number not "pinned' on our world map yet. For example ; there are about 25 boats at a single club in Singapore but they only have 1 pin on our world map. Something similar is the case with the UK. The Netherlands is so small that several pins fully overlap eachother.

I would say that roughly 150 F16 boats are sailing in the world now. In Europe the boats are mainly found in the north-western part. I know only of a couple of Bim 16's with spi in Spain, most of these measure in into F16 rules as these still have the old-style and shorter masts.





But indeed F16 is still very new to Spain. We don't have a local spanish dealer or agent as I'm sure Hobie does have. But these boats are available to Spanish buyers. We have shipped boats to far off places like Shanghai China and United Arab Emirates as well as Karachi Pakistan. Therefor I don't think shipping a boat to Spain will be difficult therefor.






It is very comparable to the Hobie FX-one at first glance, for example its mainsail area is almost exactly the same. However there are a few important differences :

The F16 boats are significantly lighter. I would say about 30 kg lighter. This is indeed significant when handling the boat on the beach.

The mast section, despite being aluminium, is lighter as well. When the masts were weight some 3 years ago we discovered the FX-one masts are 20.5 kg fully rigged while the alu F16 masts were 17 kg. Additionally the F16 class allows carbon masts. The stealth F16 has a carbon mast standard and that one weights overall only 14 kgs. It needs no further explanation that differences in mast weight can make a noticeable difference in the way a boat handles on the water.

The F16 class is a true formula class meaning that within a limited set of rules that control performance everything else is allowed. Currently there are 4 designs, by different builders, that adhere to this F16 rule set. Compare it to the F18 class. You are not forced to buy your replacement gear from a single supplier, You may do that but you may also shop around.

As a result of the formula setup and the allowance to replace parts by those made by other builders or suppliers the F16 designs see alot more development of their sails and fittings. This has lead to the situation where the complete rudder and daggerboard setup combined weigths only 7 kgs on F16's while the FX-one package is 12 kgs. Last weekend I had a Tiger sailor on my Taipan F16 and the thing he first commented on was how light and response my boat steered. That is the result of continuing development. The FX-one uses the Tiger rudder setup.





The F16 class features a 17.5 sq.mtr. asymmetric spinnaker, just like the FX-one. In principle the F16 comes standard as a doublehander while the FX-one comes standard as a doublehander. This means that the F16's are fitted with a selftacking rail and jib standard.

As far as I can tell, the F16's are (and have nearly always been) fitted with sails of well known brands. Think Ullman (UK / USA), Landenberger (Ger), Ashby (Aus) and Goodall (Aus). This is standard. Several other sailmakers have F16 designs because some sailors prefered to have sails made by them. Glaser sails (USA) is one of these, Redhead (Aus) and Irwin (Aus) are others. These sailmakers are in competition with eachother. Now you also know what is meant by development.

F16's allow a wide range of choices in the way of fabrication. You can choose to have an aluminium mast or a carbon mast. You can choose to have glass hulls, carbon hulls or Kevlar hulls. You can decide to have dacron sails, Pentex sails, Maxx sails or whatever cloth you want. Same for the spinnaker. You can have normal rudders or rudders with T-foils at the tips. You can have external or internal downhaul systems. And you can alter the control systems onboard as you see fit. All as long as you stay within the generally worded class rules that limit the boat performance to a equal level.

F16's and FX-one are the same overall width. The F16's are 5 mtr long while the FX-one is 5.22 mtr long. The mast height on both boats is the same at 8.5 mtr. The mainsail sizes are the same at 15 sq. mtr. The F16 jib is 3.70 sq. mtr. and I think the FX-one jib of the upgrade jib kit is 3.99 sq.mtr.

Under Texel and SCHRS (ISAF) the F16's are rated faster then the FX-one's by about 3% to 5%

The aluminium F16 masts are of the wingmast type (aerodynamically more efficient because of an eliptical front part), the FX-one masts are teardrop shaped in their crosssections (circular front parts).





Strangely enough several F16's are cheaper then the FX-one, despite usage of carbon and other more high tech materials and building methods.

F16's allow doublehanded and singlehanded racing in a single fleet. These two setups have proven over time to be very similar in all-out performance and hence race eachother first-in-wins in a single fleet.


Pretty much the FX-one is a good boat with the F16's being a little better in many respects. This situation will always be this way as the F16 class allows gradual development of the boat design while the FX-one is fixed in one particular state. I personally expect the gap to widen slowly over time. Personally I derive much sailing enjoyment because items are developped into better working versions. It is just very nice to sail a boat that is very responsive and accurate on its rudders and that for the same cost. This is the reason why 5 years ago I decided to go with the then infant F16's. I had test sailed the FX-one quite alot before that time as I was interested in that boat myself. Right now I feel the F16's are getting the upper hand. Their world wide spread is just better and like Rolf says it seems like the F16's are catching on now. AHPC is coming out with a totally new F16 design, while both Stealth and VectorWorks Marine are reporting increasing sales. I just welcomed two new F16's at my own club.

If class racing is really important to you and you buddies got FX-ones, then I would go that route. If you are looking for the next step up or are often sailing by yourself then I would advice you go for the best you can buy for the same amount of money.

If you have any specific question then ask them of us at the F16 forum at link :

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=Fleet45

Good luck with your boat choice.

Wouter

If you can wait until Aug '07 I'll bring your Blade F16 to the Global Challenge in Zandvoort, The Netherlands and we can crew together (I'll share the shipping fees). You can then transport it back to Sotogrande and begin your F16 fleet in Spain.

Terry

Is that because it will take you that long to read that post?

Thanks Jake I needed that!LOL! Though I did actually enjoy Wouter's sales pitch.

W's pitch may be long, but accurate and well thought out...worth the read imo.

I think it is interesting to look at the Stealth mainsail shape (big roach) compared to the Blade (high aspect), with the knowledge that they sail pretty evenly around the cans.

BTW, check out my F16 crew in training....when I can get them off the wakeboard.

it`s clear to me that I came to the right place to ask!

thank you foe all your input and particularly to W for his Masters Class.

We are planning a trip in August, crossing Gibralatar, from there to Tatifa and then jumping to Tanger and come back. We are planning to do it with two Pacifics, one Nacra 5.7 , one Tigger and whatever I get once I sellmy Nacra. How tough are the F16 class? are they good for this kind of safaries? and for sleeping all year in the beach? More like a FX one or Class A? and for sailing in heavy winds?

Finally, I understood that there is a number of brands that manufacture F16 boats, which one do you recomend?

Thanks to everybody for all your help, input and time!

Regards,

Javier

I will concentrate on the F16 part of your questions here.





I consider them to be just as tough as any other boat out there.

In the past 5 years we have not seen a significant failure. I can elaborate on this but the summary is just that.

Also note that the F16's were derived from the Australian Taipan 4.9 design which has been holding up without significant failures ever since 1988. This boat was actually 102 kg when ready to sail.

I feel total confident that the F16's are dependable boats were the crews will meet their limit in toughness before the boat does.





To be really honest, the FX-one will not be your first choice here either. Certainly the F16's will not be any different from the FX-one here. Both are race boats and safaries often require a totallly different approach to the design. I don't think any modern beach cat is particulary well suited to this role. If anything your Nacra 5.7 is one of the best boats to have on such trips. If these safari's are you prefered way of sailing then don't sell your nacra 5.7.

With both the FX-one and F16's hold up to doing such a trip. I think they will, construction wise they will. There are just both more tiring to the crews then a more underpowered and simpler boat like the Nacra 5.7





I keep my boat 6 months of the year on the beach in all weather and sun. I usually have to dig out my boat from the sands twice or three times a year. I never spray it clean after sailing or before sailing. The boat is still going strong. I do take off my carbon rudder setup to limit UV impact. But these are only 3 kg combined so it is not like you are carrying much to your car or storage.




More like an FX-one in the way of robustness, more like the A in the way of feel. The F16's are really not fragile in any way. People may believe that when looking at the low weight but really they aren't. We have had collisions and quite a few of us have sailed the boats plenty of times in really rough conditions. I've seen Nacra and Hobie boats devellop cracks and ruptures in stiff were my boat just kept going. I've broken shackles, blocks and I've bent a mainsheet block (Ronstan), But never did I break any major part of the boat like beams, hulls, mast, sails, daggerboards etc. Many others are testifying to the same things. The fact that shackles etc were broken proofs that our boats were under considerable loadings and that we were really pushing it. Truly, I'm fully confident that the F16's will hold up in the rough. At one time I forgot my luff daggerboard and I sailed my boat doublehanded up the beach with the baords still fully down. The boat was actually standing on this board when we jumped off onto the dry sand. I've not done a single repair because of that.




These modern boats (including FX-one) are race oriented boats and as such they are lively in a blow. There are fast and just like sports car you can "run them off the road" if you don't know what you are doing. It is that simple. But If you do know what you are doing or are willing to learn what you must be doing then heavy winds should not be a problem. It will be tiring and challenging but it will not be a problem. But it does help if you are fit. You must remember that you'll be doing 20 knots in very rough water. The boat can handle it, Thereofor the really interesting question is if you can handle it ? Not much difference between FX-one and F16's here UNLESS you are decidig to use the T-foil rudders. The F16 class allows these and in a big blow and rough seastate I can garantee you that sailing with these will make the boat alot more preferable then any boat without.




Well currently the options are :

Taipan F16 by AHPC (AUS) - that is the one I have -
Capricorn F16 AHPC (AUS) - replacement of above and will be launched officially before summer 2007 -
Stealth F16 by Stealth marine (UK) - the one with T-foil rudders and carbon mast standard -
Blade F16 by Vectorworks marine (USA) - Looks a bit like the FX-one, in rather high demand now -

Bimare in Italy has a F16 project going as well it seems. I dare not say more, but this project appears to be well developped by now.

As a former F16 class official I still don't feel that I can publically advice one particular brand of F16. And even if I would I would want to hear a little more about how you sail most often (doublehanded or singlehanded) and what you think is important to you. Some really want a carbon mast others don't.

have to go to bed now.

I hope this answers your questions

Wouter

Wouter,
I am very interested in the F16 class as you describe. I currently sail an 18 magnum with Tiger main and chute. I went to this setup after destroying and selling my Fox. I sail off the coast of SC and my boats see alot of sand contact. My questions are, can the F16 designs stand up to the kind of wear and tear I would deliver, Can they be righted by one person safely and easily, can they hold up to heavy air and seas, wave jumping. I was under the impression the Fox had these capabilities but I was very wrong. I like my current boat but the 18 was not designed to take the pressure on the bows a spin exerts. I believe its a matter of time before I break a hull, most of the others I've known that ran a spin eventually experienced this. I am not much of a racer, more a thrill seeker. I really enjoy hauling butt on the edge. Any and all feedback is welcome. Also would you buy new or look for a used rig?

This would be better answered in the F16 section of the forums. All those questions have been answered in there somewhere, its just a matter of searching the forum.

What problems did you encounter with the fox?

It kept breaking dagger boards. The third break was inside the hull in heavy air. It broke the dagger well and tore the hull open to the point the board could plane. Couldn't get it out with that hull leeward. As we tacked the board swung under the boat and tore up the outside of the hull. I still feel it was a design flaw but a marine appraiser felt comfortable stating I had struck something. My insurance had initially denied the claim as a manufacturer defect. Hobie did offer to sell me a used hull at a substantial discount. The boat was 1 1/2 years old at this point, 1/2 year out of warranty. The hulls had worn on the bottom and been reglassed prior to this failure. It is a beautiful boat, handles well and very fast. I had it repaired and sold it this spring for 5k to a gentleman in Canada. He will mostly lake sail it and I believe thats where it belongs. The Fox is not a beach cat, maybe thats why Hobie pulled it from the Worrell 1000 several years ago.

windy,

All I can say is that the boats have held up in stuff where I and others have backed down. I'm sure there is a threshold somewhere but I haven't encountered it yet, nor somebody else it seems. I'm not a total expert on the Taipan 4.9 class but that class has indeed been going at it hard since 1988 and now major failures were encountered which are construction related. I'm sure however that if you try hard like blow the mainsheet totally and under spi in 30 knots that you are approaching the design contruction limits. However, I''ve actually done it in 20 knots, where my mast looked really funny but it remained standing and straight.

I've seen similar breakages of the Fox board. These were very tall and narrow which would make them MUCH higher loaded then the boards the F16's are using. As written earlier, I've sailed my boat onto the beach with the daggerboard down, no damage. I'm not going to do that several more times, but it still indicates to me that the breakage threshold of the boards is not close to sailing conditions.

I'm told first hand that the new Blades have been upgraded with more then a little A-cat building technology, resulting in more stiffness and strength. But they are still a relatively new design.

Lets answer your questions :





Honestly there is always a limit to be found and I don't know how abusive you are with your boats. I know I'm personally gentle with my boat on the beach, but throw it about during racing on the water. I have sand everywhere. Mostly my boat is covered in it. The Gelcoat layer on the F16's will not be as thick as on the TheMightyHobie18 and I don't drag my boat over the sand for hundreds of yards. Still I'm really convinced that the construction of the F16's is ample here. Sufficient without going overboard and carrying alot of weight. If you drag your baot out of the surf, over a few tens of yards, everytime then I don't expect you to touch up your bottoms more then every 3 years or so. Which is pretty standard among beach cats I think.

If you order Kevlar hulls then I'm sure you need to work really hard at degrading that. That stuff is immensely abuse resistant espcially in wear.





I can at 85 kg. The righting threshold for a Taipan 4.9 (=alu mast) is just over 70 kg which includes flat water and hardly any wind. It gets increasingly easier with addition winds and waves. I think the F16's are the most easily rightable beach cats after the A-cats. Certainly more easily then you are sailing now or what the other builders are offering as singlehanders.

Of course you can also get an F16 with a carbon mast. The "flat water no wind" righting threshold here is 60 kg and higher. So how important is righting to you ? If very important then get a carbon mast for it.




From what I've seen yes. I'm not kidding here. Again as I wrote earlier. I've seen blown blocks and shackle on F16's but no major failures like damaged hulls and broken masts as the result of wild conditions. In my boat I used Hardwood blocks underneath my beam bolts to sit my bolts on. These have been compressed by 1/5th inch over 1 year sailing. I actually had to hammer the rings out. I replaced them with metal blocks and everything is fine. But it does show the forces that has been put on the boat. Like I said I'm not pampering my boat on the water. I'm carefull that I don't do stupid things, but in a race in mot thinking twice about powering it full through a wave or launching my boat through the air of the top of one. But as said earlier, it has got to end somewhere, I and many others just haven't encounter that limit yet.



The F16's do have one strong advantage to their design. Everything is noticeably smaller then big 20 footers this means that both the leverages and forces are significantly smaller as well. It is often quite hard to break modestly sized parts like this. I think this is greatly helping the F16's in being both light and strong.





Well, then the downside of the F16's may actually be the greatest attraction to you personally. Because the F16's are relatively short and small the boats will feel more lively then their bigger brothers. In big wind and high speeds the boats will indeed feel very lively. You want to take your hands of the wheel of a porche 911 at full speed and the F16's are likewise to some extend. If you do flick your rudders over when travelling at high speed then the F16 rudder board will carve a violant turn through the water. The newer F16 rudders are just that powerful. They don't stall and their response is truly immediate. You'll be barefoot waterskiing along side the boat if you are trapezing and you are turning away. At least I've done this. Accelleration can be much the same.

I personally love this feel and at my club some F18 sailor are now order the same rudder blades for their boats after test sailing what they call the kiddies boat. Although they are using this identifier less and less these days. After a while you get used, even addicted, to it. I did. But you must learn to handle the rig right. When it is stalled then you are going no where. It is "on" or "off" and that means you are constantly trimming.

So I say their is challenge here for you (and many others)




That truly dependents on what you want. I still think the Taipan 4.9 is still a very good boat. But the new boats like the Blade F16 and Stealth F16 are just getting better and better. For the rough stuff the t-foil rudders of the stealth are really nice. Plenty of control and power at the same time in a big breeze. The standard carbon mast will be very nice as well. The Blade has more water surface clearance and will ride the waves better then the Taipan. Put a carbon stick on the blade and I think it is a truly fine platform.

I personally prefer the new and therefor modern rigs with large heads and selftacking jibs. I think I will jsut refuse to go out in a big blow without a selftackign jib adn the roomy tramp that that setup allows. Especially under spinnaker. You just don't want to fiddle about with jib sheets in conditions like that.



But there is one more comment I would like to add. A sailor best suited to F16's are those that appreciate a more sophisticated way of sailing. I found that sailors can be devided roughtly in two groups. One that can never have enough power and that like to meet any challenge head first. The other who is more interested in efficiency and looking for optimal pathways to an end goal. The F16's are best suited to the last group. The F16 is not a raw grunt boat. If you are a power rider then you really need to change your way of sailing. F16's like sailors who listen and adjust their style to the conditions c.q. situations. They are much like A-cats in the way that the right trim makes the rig really stream and the boat go fast, while the wrong trim makes the rig feel really slow. It is much like a motorcycle in the way that you are using your full body to ride the vehicle well. It is not like a drag racing roadster that has trouble rounding corners. Some like the first others the last. I really like the first.

I find that I still don't get bored on boat as there is so much to learn and each time when you do it right you find a new groove of speed. The challenge is to learn to easily switch from one groove to another in changing conditions and on different courses. I get a real kick out of the reward that comes from getting the team work done well. This is a boat for team minded sailors. You either work togeth al the time and go fast or you are just holding eachother back. WHen singlehanding the challenge is all yours, personally. Then it is "ride that baby" without losing it. Solo sailing from the trapeze under spinnaker in 10-15 knots is one of the best rides you are ever going to get. No theme park competes to that.

I hope this answers your questions

Wouter

Thanks Wouter,
I am very abusive to my boats I think. I don't drag them around but I never hesistate to come in very hot and slide up the sand. I surf and launch waves every chance I get. The 18 has let me down once, broke the front crossbar on a landing double trapped. As I rarely race I most likely fall into the first catagory. Can't get enough power and go head on into whatever. Perhaps the F16 is not for me. A friend has equiped his Hobie 16 with a spin for next season, I will sail it some and see how it feels. I don't think that will compare to a F16 due to the banana shaped hulls. I guess for now my 18 will suffice my need for speed. I am going to give racing another try with this new rig and see what happens. I can't right it by myself so crew is always required but not always available. I will continue to watch the F16 class and see what develops. Thanks again for your time and input

Okay your are welcome,

Best of winds to you.

Wouter

Have you ever thought of putting an additional layer of glass on the bottom of your boats as soon as your get them? Its not too difficult to do if you're not racing and don't care about making it look great.

Not necessary on the battlestar Hobie 18. Theres enough glass on the bottom of the 18 from the factory. I can usually go 3 or 4 seasons hard before a glass job is required. Also, I've never noticed the hull strength compromised due to wear on a 18 or 16 for that matter. Wear on the bottom of a clam shell design is more difficult to repair properly and in my experience leads to hull failure. I like the F16 platform and would like the option of single handing. I solo the 18 currently but can't push it as I can't right it. Theres almost never anyone else on the water in N. Myrtle Beach.