Hi guys,

I've been sailing H17 for 8yrs andI just sold it.
I did enjoy the boat, it allowed up to 3pax for family&friends recreation due to wings and wide space. Also it was a lively boat to sail solo, you could even sail quick on the wings without hooking a trapeze. Drawback: it happened to be too heavy to pull out on the beach singlehanded.

Now I'm looking for a 1-2pax 16ft cat. Over the place H16 is the common thing but I'd rather have a lighter (120-130Kg max, multi-purpose modern boat.

Options:

1)FX-One (heir of extinct H17)Apparently feedback comments about FX1 aren't very positive and price is higher than other boats.

2) Formula 16: SL16 recently sold in Spain by sirena-France www.sirena-voile.com (price 10-11k€). VERY new. It has selected by ISAF for the WW youngsters campionchip.
3) Nacra 500 , also sold by sirena but they favour their own model rather than nacra (they are distributors). Nacra is however a well rehearsed boat in many countries.
4) TopCat either K2 or K3. This seems a rather nice boat,also in the 10-11 k€ range, well built and with a practical rudder that allows for easy control in shallow waters. www.topcat.de. There's no significant references about it in our forum. Can anybody provide an opinion about it?
5) Javelin16. Modern, light (110Kg), carbon mast, gennaker all 10K€. www.bimare.net

I'd appreciate your comments, mostly by Eu catsailors that could provide insights on TopCat, Javelin and SL16 option.

Thanks
Alfred

F16 all the way plus they are 30 kilos lighter than you want ( ideal for getting up the beach on your own ) can carry 1 + 1 lightweight crew or single handed without jib, great racing class being established, great handicap that is equivalent to other boats and the plus plus plus, the sheer grin factor.

PS my 2005 Stealth with all carbon bits, T foils etc is up for sail at £ 5750.00 ( I have 2 and one has to go )

Alfred,

Here are my comments :




FX-one will be slightly above your maximum weight limit. They are adverised at 125 kg but I have yet to see anybody measure a FX-one below 142 kg (incl. spi package, excl. jib setup). And I do keep track of these things.

SL-16 is quoted at 153 kg by the builder Sirena http://www.sirena-voile.com/fr/bateaux_neufs/sl/sl.html and at 145 kg by one of its dealors in Germany (Sven Linstadt) http://www.sirena-voile.com/contenu/documents/0001_000008.pdf. This is ready to sail including everything; spi package and jib setup. Note however that the SL-16 is not much of a Formula 16 boat. It appears to be fully compliant but it is rated significantly slower then a true F16. Actually it is rated about the same as your Hobie 17.

nacra 500 is quoted by Texel measures at 147 kg when singlehanding (only mainsail, no spi) and at 150 kg when doublehanded (incl. jib but no spi). Source : Texel handicap system http://www.watersportverbond.nl/data/5Z2_numdet1_3-7-2006.pdf

Topcats weights (Texel measurement sheet) ; K2 = 163 kg and K3 - 147 kg both without a spinnaker package. And That topcat K2 truly has ALOT of sailarea for a 16 foot boat. Almost the same as F18 (Tiger). Can't tell you much else about them. These boats do have a dedicated following in eastern parts of Europe and Germany.

Javelin 16; Now we are getting somewhere, Boat should be below 120 kg's. They ones I know about are pretty much between 100 and 115 kg. Bimare advertises them as low as 90 kg but ... well you probably understand what I'm trying to say here. They have good rigs for singlehanding as these are practically a copy of an A-cat rig. Boat doesn't have a jib however and that sort of makes it less then optimal for doublehanded racing. In my book an attractive boat for the money, but don't expect top quality. Do a search on this forum to find details. Most of Bim rudder setups have been modified by their owners to name one example. I do consider the quality of the bims to be below that of FX-one, nacra 500 and F16's. I have not seen a SL16 in person but the Kl15.5 (its father) was a dependable design.

And you haven't named this boat, but you should also consider the Swell Spitfire. This boat is 140 kg ready to sail (jib + spi with snuffer) and is actually a very fast boat. Also their are several second hand offers. This boat has a better following then the Hobie FX-one is both faster and lighter.

In the way of pricing I think you must assume to pay more then you were quoted.

The FX-one with spi but without jib setup is about 14.500 Euro's in my recollection.

The SL16 fitted with spi and jib setup is at least 12.000 Euro's (source : http://www.sirena-voile.com/contenu/documents/0001_000008.pdf) and that I already find really inexpensive. It is certainly the lowest OFFICIAL SL16 quote I have seen. There were alot of rumours about 10.000 Euro's ready to go but I dare any dealor to actually deliver the baot at that price fully fitted (jib, selftacker, spi, snuffer, pentex race sails)

The Nacra is the cheapest of all (don't know about the Topcats) but even that one will come in at least 10.500 Euro's with only the very basic fittings on the boat. Most buyers order at least 2 or three upgrades to the boat and end up at around 12.000 Euro's anyway. If you want a spinnaker and selftacking jib setup to this boat (only then can you compare it to the FX-one, SL16 and F16's) then you are looking at adding at least 2000 - 2500 Euro's. If you want a snuffer system for your spi then add another 500 Euro's.

I don't have dependable pricing info on the Bim.

The true F16's are between 12.000 - 14.500 Euro's with the Taipan F16 (16.000) having been discontinued in production. That boat will be replaced by the new Viper F16 that is projected at 14.300 Euro's. As good as all F16 designs come standard with a selftacking jib setup, a spinnaker with snuffer system and pentex sails. Typically these are all upgrades or extra's on the other boats discussed (exception = SL16). This in effect means that if you want a pure uni-rigged singlehander F16 (no jib, no spi) you can deduct about 2000 Euro's from the quoted prices.


Personally, I would only consider the FX-one, F16's, SL16 and Javelin 16. The other boats look like much the same as the Hobie 17 you have just sold. The SL16 is really to heavy at 150 kg's and 13.75 sq. mtr. is really not much sail area for nice singlehanding unless you regulary sail in decent winds. I only included it because it will have good resale value and because it is at least a boat with all the new stuff on it. Personally, I would order the Bimare F16 instead of the Bim Javelin 16. These two designs are not the same and rumour has it that Bim has a fully optimized F16 prototype in their yard. Javelin 16 is not going to make it as a design. It has been out several years and it is not making a class. Besides, if the new bim 16ft design is based on the Bim XJ A-cat and Bim F18 then it is going to be a better boat then the javelin 16. Basically its strongest point is that it is cheap.

With this I really do think the true competition for your situation is between the FX-one and the true F16's. I don't name the nacra Inter 17 as that boat is doing almost as bad as the javelin 16 on the European market. Between the FX-one and F16's it is a tosh up about what is best for you. F16 is not big at all in spain and Hobie undoubtably is. F16 will get there in time, but "in time" is not the same as "now", is it. F16 however is doing alot better then FX-one outside of Europe and its future is not in any doubt anymore. Also the F16's are getting more and more ahead of the FX-one, that is simply the truth. Both boats are priced about the same. I've seen a bunch of Blade F16 weight data and these boat are indeed around 110 kg fully fitted. So it all comes down to what you want. A local dealor but a 145 kg boat, or a 110 kg boat and having to receive your replacement parts by mail order.


Good luck,

Wouter

ohh of all boats discussed the true F16's (not SL16) are the fastest, followed by the Bim and FX-one and then at a distance the others.

At the one centre in the UK where the FX1 really became a class ( I think 12 or more boats at one time ) there is now a changing scene, the F16's are replacing the diminishing FX1 fleet rapidly with the former FX1 owners trading in their boats for the F16's and nearly all for the one same reason, a single person finds it extremely difficult to get an FX1 up from capsize.

Please consider this as without aid you will not right a FX1 easily, can be done but it is not easy.

It is no secret that I seriously considered the Hobie FX-one myself before I got a F16. Actually the F16 class didn't even exist at the time (May 2001). I sailed the FX-one for a whole week at a sailing resort in Greece. See attached pic.





I had tipped the boat over several times that week and I had only been able to right it singlehandedly at 85 kg one single time because I got a real lucky gust (think 20 knots) just at the right time and at the right angle. I have not been able to reproduce that righting achievement ever since. I had other gripes about the FX-one (mast = too stiff) and I could not bring myself to buy one. It must be said however that I did like as a doublehander (with jib package).

6 weeks later Rick made the Formula 16 forum here at www.catsailor.com on my request and another 6 weeks later the first F16 ruleset was published. And work on my (homebuild) ply-epoxy Taipan F16 had commenced. (one that I capsized recently, ...)





Alfred, what is your body weight ? I'm asking in order to establish if you can handle a F16 alu mast or whether you are better off with a F16 carbon mast.



Wouter

Dear Alfred,

If you want more information about F16 check the website of F16 on www.formula16.org .
If you need further information please feel free to contact at [email]info@catamaranparts.nl.[/email] I am sure we can help you further and give you the right and good information to make the right desicion for you and that you will buy the type of boat what will fit you.

Regards,
Hans Klok

I have an old taipan 4.9. Simple rig and great for one or two with a lighter partner.
Cheap.
Seems very strong and I promise it is a easy as my little Paper Tiger on the beach... just not an issue.
Oh, ,and it will blow your 17 out of the water...but it will be a lot wetter!

Hi all,

First of all, thank you Wouter for your lengthy post and well thought comments.

My weight is 87K. Also I must point out that we don't have often strong winds over here (usually force 1-2) so it is a rare thing to capsize. I happen to sail all over the place so I will not have a rescue service watching. That is, in case I capsize, it will be just me, my mobile phone and motorboats around that either don't care or don't know how to help.
With H17 I had no problems about this since I had a much better torque by pulling the rope higher up from the upper wing. I'm worried about the idea you imply about dead sitting on the water and not being able to put it back right.

Ref. to prices (16%VAT included):
SL16 cost is 11.100€ + 1,800€ (kit spi)
(I dont'need a spi by the time being though)
Concerning TopCats I have some data for you, K2streamcut 10680€ (jib but no spi), K3 10030€ (jib)
FX ONE 13500€ (no spi).
Javelin16 is certainly 10K€ (mainsail+ gennaker).
Nacra 500 11250€ (no spi)

Ref. to the bim, I just know about the javelin16, not about an F16 by bimare, in the BCN fair there were just the class A (AJ and XJ) and the javelin. On the web there's only javelin16. Is this a new project you have information about?

Apart from my post initial criteria, I wouldn't mind to keep budget in the 10k€ range and not to climb to 13k€...

Thanks
Alfred

Alfred,



Thanks.



Okay you are my size then. I can right my F16 with the alu F16 mast unaided. So if you go this route (F16) then you can save money by getting the alu mast.




In this case get a modern boat with well cut sails and well developped control systems. It will be more enjoyable. I feel this is an argument against the Topcats. Their systems tend to be crude. One option to their boats (for added cost) is a ball bearing traveller car. I hate to envision that these boats come stock with a sliding traveller car, because that will be a pain in the neck in light winds.






It was something that made an impression on me as well. Hasn't happened to me on the F16 however, so I think that I made the right choice back then.

But if you want to be really secure then a carbon mast is key.





You can add to this list :

Stealth F16 = 11.766 Euro incl. cost for spinnaker ( http://www.stealthmarine.co.uk/ )
Blade F16 = 14.000 Euro incl. cost for spinnaker ( www.catamaranparts.nl )
Viper F16 = 14.300 Euro incl. cost for spinnaker ( www.AHPC.com.au but it is not on their website yet )

Typcial cost for a spinnaker package is 1500-2000 Euro's so you can deduct that from the prices quoted above. All F16's are given as sloop rigs including Harken/Ronstan fittings and pentex sails. So you won't have to buy "options" with these offers.

Roughly this means the F16's without a spi come out at :

Stealth F16 = about 10.000 Euro
Blade F16 = about 12.500 Euro
Viper F16 = about 12.800 Euro

The Stealth F16 comes with a carbon mast for that price. The only drawback is that you have to pick it up in the UK and that will add some extra costs due to the ferry. It amazes me personally a little bit that the other boats aren't that much cheaper.





All I have at this time is er persistent buzzing in the cat scene I'm part off that a prototype and fully compliant F16 is to be found at the Bim yard in italy. One guy even says he has seen it. If I were you I would just ask Bim about it. Because if my sources are correct then I really expect this design to be significantly better then the Javelin 16. Since you are not going for the spinnaker I think you'll want the jib, especially when taking somebody along. And I think the hull shape will be noticeably better. This I deduce from the experience with the Javelin 18HT and the Bim Javelin A-cat. Both designs has issues with the rearbeam and hullshape, making them hard to sail downwind. The new Bim XJ A-cat and the Bim F18 look like they have solved these issues. My point here being that it will be a waste to spend 10.000 Euro's on a boat that may be replaced in 2007 by a much improved design coming out at the same price. So ask Bim about the boat and see if there is any truth to this.




Well the most expensive Stealth F16 (carbon mast, spi, snuffer, jib, selftacker, Ullman pentex sails the works) is : 12.650 Euro's incl taxes. Their most basic singlehander excluding spi but with a jib is just below around 10.000 Euro's.

If 13.000 Euro's is your max price then that crosses the FX-one off the list. Leaving the Sl16, nacra 500, jav 16 and topcats aside from the F16's.

In all honesty the F16's will easily take on any of these boats, while being about the same in price. I guess I'm advising you here to take a good look at the F16's. In your case it does really look like the best option.

If you let go of the "modern" boat requirement then the Nacra 500 comes out rather well. I personally like this design. I'm not too hot on the SL16 or Javelin 16. Ohh, before I forget, there is always the second hander option. There are a few F16 second hand offers about, that will most certainly get you a proper boat at 10.000 or less.

Regards,

Wouter

I've had some times when I had trouble righting my Stealth with carbon mast. This was a day when there was too little wind to capsize, but I was fiddling with the angle of my mainsheet cleat and set it too low. First half-gust that came along and....

I don't doubt that the extra few kg of an alu mast do make a difference, but if you really want to be sure, carry a righting bag or some other system. I don't, but the places I sail typically have good rescue cover.

I've only ever capsized the Blade when there was enough wind to capsize, and have never had any trouble righting it (I'm about 85kg).

Rather predictably (as an F16 sailor) I'd recommend that you take a good look at the "proper" F16s (Stealh, Blade, Viper). With the possible exception of the Javelin, the F16s are significantly quicker than the other boats you mention, are designed to sail equally well 1-up or 2-up, and meet your weight requirements.

Paul