As far as I can gather the reason why Discards were introduced in to the scoring mechanism of sailing was due to the prolific increase in the sports popularity in the 60's and early 70's. New designs which adopted sheet ply materials made it alot easier for home builders to build their own boats in their garages and in some cases front rooms. However, in certain Classes almost 1000 new boats were being produced each year during this period and the craftmanship and attention to detail did cause above average breakages. So as not to deter homebuilders and the subsequent growth of the sport Discards were introduced. Nowadays there are far less homebuilds and the materials used have developed some what but we have still been left with the Discard legacy. The ISAF could be seen to have noticed that too many discards in a series of races isn't the best way to justify a competitors or teams efforts. I think the times are a changing in this respect and the format for next years Olympics are testimony to this. F16's are a new breed of Cat which should be marketing itself as a modern class adopting modern ideas (i.e Medal Race, windward leeward courses with gates and a high number of races per event)
So lets try and put the past behind us and look to the future and keep F16's at the cutting edge of modern multihull racing which in my view in this instance is the minimum use of Discards.

Not wishing to be difficult, nor do I want to influence this discussion (other than as an individual F16 sailor), but isn't this format something that should be set down by the Association?

Part C of the current F16 rules stipulate the responsibilities of the competitor and the organiser but does not set a format for the event - perhaps this is something that we should be looking at?

Can you give an 'official' view on this please Paul?

Not too make the issue more problematic then it is but I personally do support discard (many not so many) and I really don't think that class rules should be used to rule on this matter. It should be left to the event organisors and of course the sailors (who can voted with their feet).

Wouter

I couldn't disagree more. Individual TT events are entirely up to the organisers - that is perfectly normal. But we were discussing the Nations Cup - and it is perfectly normal for classes to set the format for Nationals, Europeans, Worlds etc.

As to sailors voting with their feet, that comment is completely idiotic in a situation where we are trying to build class numbers <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Rule on this in your local association but not in the international F16 class rules.

Wouter

100% support what John is saying here. In order to build numbers this should be decided by the class association. It should be set down in the rules of the assiciation what the format of championships will be. This needs to be decided, documented and published.

No. The international class rules should decide the format for international events.

Ohh, my bad sorry !

Missed the "international" part.


Wouter

Who's volunteering to check out my whistle.
Any offers Anne or Sue I don't mind who.
But not Si or Ed
Don't know what they might do !! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I think removing discards is a bad idea. Sailing is an equipment sport, and equipment will break no matter how well done your maintenance program is. Just this last Tornado worlds Bundy/Ashby had a jib halyard snap, dropping their jib. Last Miami OCR the then T worlds champs had their mainsheet cascade blow up. Pre olympics in Athens, the british T team ripped their mainsail from leech to luff during a gybe (just some of the examples I could pick from the top of my head). These guys are not slackers when it comes to maintaining their gear. I am pretty sure most of us have had gear break at the most surprising times. I know I have had my share..
Do we want to decide on whos the best sailor, or who has the most bulletproof gear? Having some discards allow participants to recover from random occurances on the race course. It is a good thing in my opinion and part of the strategy game.

Regulating the format for international events is something the class will have to do eventually, to keep the competitions level and fair. Knowing what to expect is a good thing when you travel abroad for an event. I dont like the extra bureaucracy and limits it puts on organizers tough, so waiting as long as possible before it is done might be the thing to do.

I would agree that in principle, the format of the Nationals (sorry, Nations Cup) should be set down by the UK class association. This is something that we should determine at the inaugural AGM (which I suggest should be in the bar at Datchet during the training weekend in April).

For 2007, the class association has not formally played a role in determining other aspects of the Nations Cup (venue, number of days, number of races) as it doesn't exist. Therefore, I believe that the question of discards should be between the organisers and the people planning to sail, and should be determined in the way that we've agreed on the other issues.

As chair of the not-yet-formed UKF16A, I'm quite happy to dictate an answer on this point - but I bet I don't need to, and I'd like to hear some other opinions first anyway.

Paul

Personally, I'm in favour of some discards (i.e. 1 or 2 for 12 races). I really don't have any preference for which one, and if the choice between 1 or 2 makes the difference of a place at the Nations Cup then it'll give us something interesting to argue about for the rest of the series <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm particularly interested to see that the Olympics are reducing the number of discards. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who knows the background to this.

Paul

This from the president of ISAF, Göran Petersson. I dont know why just one discard makes the sport more accessible and understandable. Full text at: http://www.sailing.org/default.asp?PID=19823

BTW: 1 or 2 discards for 12 races. 2 races pr. day make that a 6 day event + measuring and travel. OR there must be more than two races pr. day.

OK, my two penn'orth - I support the idea of the medal race, it certainly concentrates the mind at the end of the series. However, I can't see the rationale behind ruining someones series over an undiscardable bad placing that may have not been that person's fault.

For example I remember being in a port/stbd incident at Kiel week one year when an Italian T tacked too late and right in front of me just as I bore away to go astern of him - OUCH! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I lost two races as a result but fortunately was able to use my discards and still have a reasonable series, placing 33rd out of 80 something. My point is that an incident may have repercussions for subsequent races and may not have been the fault of the person suffering the loss. I think that 1 discard after 6 races and 2 after 10 sailed is fairer. Bear in mind that the 'norm' used to be 1 discard after every 4 races sailed during the 70s/80s.

Ah. I think it's because it simplifies the scoring for commentators. Avoids the, "but all these placings will change next race when the next discard kicks in".



Where did that come from? Nations Cup will be 4 races per day.

Paul

Agree John, and my reasons for proposing 2 discards.

Sounds like we need a ballot of some form for the Nations Cup !

Aha, if it is for the commentators we need to remove all discards and all protest opportunities. But then there is a risk that the best sailor will not be the one on top of the list after the last race. I dont see the argument really. It's a bit like giving the pole vault jumpers one go at it. No trouble explaining that just the best jump counts there? I must confess that I dont think this partial revamping for TV is good for the sport. Better to run heats like the sprinters and let the boats qualify for the finals. Then run best of three races there. Should be plenty exiting, but harsh on the sailors. But sailing will not be exiting for viewers whatever is done, unless the producers start changing focus on their production. There lies the real problem.


Sorry, I was thinking in the context of largish international events. Most of those, especially within the olympic classes are limited to two races a day. Except the 49ers which I believe run 4 races.

Well, I often find myself trying struggling to anticipate the inclusion of discards part-way through a series, but you're absolutely right: this is minor compared to the other issues of sailing coverage. What I saw of the last Olympics was terrible.

Paul

I support discounts and won't support any proposal to get rid of them.

As long as commentators can explain whatever goes on in a live 4 day cricket match coverage then they can explain the simple technique of a discard. How about snooker ?

Actually I believe discards make the racing more exiting. You have to deal a double wammy to your opponent as he can always use his discard to nullify a single defeat first bad result. Afterwise we can also try to stop a boxing match after the first blow lands, correct ?

Wouter

Whilst we're getting into the realms of Class and Association Rules I would like to point out that if you intend to travel to Zandvoort be sure to take a saw with you.
At present the length of your spinnaker pole mustn't exceed 3,500mm and project further than 800mm past your bows. Most modern F16's that I have seen flaunt this rule including the Blade. So unless this 800mm measurement rule is retracted then there will be a lot of unhappy sailors cutting their poles and altering their stays to meet the required measurement.
Now that would be a great start to an event.