So how much time would one need to build that other V-ed hull ?

How would that hull require less building time ?

What makes it different from the other setup ?

Wouter

Wouter,

A balance between performance and ease of building needs to be struck. Your concept is better in some ways but it will take longer to build.
To keep this real cheap it may need to become a club project with a production line type setup. If that is the case it may be better for a less optimal design that is much quicker to build.
If dads were building for their kids in a home environment the pressure on time may not be as great.

I'll detail the steps as I see them with guesstimate times.

I'll leave the rest up to you.

Please note the times below are just a guess.
You never know until you give it a go.

You only mark out one panel and it is used to cut all others with a router.
Glue and screw on stringers and gunwale, make the keelson and the sides are glued and screwed on. Wire up bow. Glue in props between the stringers and fillet inside of bow all in one operation. Laminate ply to underside of foam for deck. Leave overnight for resin to cure.
Maybe 10 hours

Remove screws, fill holes and waterproof inside and outside of hull and under deck. Fit beam landings. glue on deck . Leave overnight.

Maybe 4 hours.

Shape and glass deck. Glass outside of bow and along keel. Leave overnight.
Maybe 4 hours.

Paint.
Depends on the finish you want.

If that is a yes-or-no question, I guess I would have to say yes -- at least for the United States. Probably the last thing we need right now is another boat in the mix.

It is going to be tough enough to try to get some acceptance for the SL16 as the new youth catamaran -- and get people to buy it for their kids. People just don't have enough money or time to have their own boat and also buy an SL16 for their 16-year-old and also build or buy a 12-footer for their younger kids.

There is already a huge, national sailing network, involving thousands of kids. Youth sailing here just keeps growing. Why not take advantage of the existing infrastructure? As Jake said, kids like to be with a lot of other kids. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

But, of course, I am more interested in just getting kids sailing -- and racing. I DO know that Chip and Barb Short are having great success with their sailing program down here in the Keys, using strictly Hobie Waves. But they allow the kids lots of freedom to just play on the boats and have fun with them -- and the kids keep coming back for more. They LOVE to capsize the boats and right them.

The Wave works great for the younger kids, because the boats are so indestructible and usually don't do too much damage to things the kids run into. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I hate to think what would happen to plywood boats going through all the "incidents" that happen in a junior program.

Mary,

Apologies are not necessary. I thank you for your story of your boating experience with your father as well!! Geez, it started with a title of Youth Recreation and I for one have enjoyed the banter mixed in with the technical talk. Keeping focus on a target of the youth helps me stay down to earth. My thoughts can easily wander off to "What if the beam was narrower and we add a trapeze..."

I must admit I'm looking forward to stealing a quick ride on one myself. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

The Wave programs going on throughout the US are excellent. Going back to my original post, time to get on the water and weight (car top) are significant in attracting new sailors. The Wave is too heavy and Bravo on the border of too heavy for those without the luxury of a sailing club venue. When my boys were old enough to finally go with me on the H16 that had been attracting cob webs in the yard the biggest deterant was the setup time. They were'nt big enough to really help, so it took all of 30 to 40 minutes and repeat for going home, they had great fun actually sailing but quickly tired of the waiting. Sure I could have sold it and bought a Laser, but I'm a cat sailor.

What if a dad and kiddies can throw a boat on the car drive to the lake and be sailing quickly, or throw a fishing line in the water and sit in a lawn chair while the kids explore the cove. Look at the success of kayaks, quick enjoyment. I know of a few wind surfers who are looking for a boat they can sail, that's inexpensive, when "It's not blowing dogs off chains" or to extend their sailing season. Younger adults especially may benefit from a boat that is easily stored on the side or rafters of a small garage.

John
Your original goal is to get more kids sailing, Correct?
Those kids are not currently sailing with their parents and not involved in sailing in any way, Correct?

I personally love to work with tools and build things.
From what Phil is saying you will need 100 hours and at least a circular saw, jig saw, router, screw guns, maybe an orbital sander and epoxy or glass supplies and some know how. You will have to have plans for the aluminum or SS parts and have some machining and welding done.
You and I may have all that already, but the people you are trying to attract won't.
People in the USA have their lawns cut, driveways plowed and almost everything else mechanical hired out.
Your potential number of home boat builders that don't currently sail just went way down.

Now if you can get a group of guys at a club to turn out some boats and start a program where the moms can just drop off the kids to sail(mom gets alone time) I think you may have some success.

Reading through this more, I used to "Not have the time or money" either. But I am going to make this happen. Our fleet has several 10 or more youngsters (.5 to 16 year olds that will (Probably) be sail(ors/etts). I know that my 7 year old daughter (Jillian) and maybe even my 15 year(Birthday today) old son (Ben) would very much enjoy working on a project like this. However, my 16 year old daughter would much rather have a TheMightyHobie18 or similar to single hand. As we all know, every person is different. Ben is teriffied of a h16 becaue in his eyes that mast and sail are huge this makes for a very shaky boat (even in light winds). This would be a great boat for these children.

He.. my wife might even take this boat out.

Thanks guys.

I can not do this my self either. But with the help of my Fleet, NO PROBLEM!!!!

Now, think NO CLUB how do we get families to bodies of water that are not just around the corner?

More boats help, so yes, build the boats. I think it is time to try and get the word out that you do not have to live on the water to go sailing!!

Thanks
Sam

I could say rather a lot about the Optimist, but I'll restrain myself to the topic of having fun.

Sailing is supposed to be fun. Racing should also be fun. If sailing/racing could be affordable in addition, things would be great. In our sailing club, there is rather a lot of kids trying the Optimist. Most of them dont stay in the club for a full season. I think some of the reason behind this is the boat they sail. The Opti is not a very nice boat to sail for a beginner. If launching from a ramp like they do at our club, just getting the rudder on the boat is an advanced manouver. Controlling the boat without the rudders is a very advanced technique, so there is a certain amount of apprehension at launch time. The Opti rig is quite flexible with regards to trim. Setting it right takes experience and knowlegde, so racing and training is an "darwinistic" experience. Getting the most from the boat is quite hard. For a novice, being launched "solo" for the first time with just theorethical knowlegde must be really scary. Spending time in the boat, solo, must be boring at times. Especially so for a youth who often have a rather short attention span.

A simpler boat, both to rig, control and sail must be good. A boat where an adult or an advanced youth can come out to assist for the first trips is certainly a good thing. Being able to bring a friend, or sail two up is very valuable as well. Nothing is much worse than sitting at the back of the fleet, alone. We might even get to se youths sailing their boats outside organized activities, just for the fun of it. Something I have witnessed two or three times the last 5 years.
Working for getting a simple boat, which is both easier to control and cheaper than the Opti on the water is laudable. I think the boats Wouter and Phill have in mind is much better for attracting the kids and getting them hooked for good than the current crop.
Nobody said this effort had to result in instant world domination for the next season, neither does it have to be divisive for the current Opti fleet as some seem to think. In northern Europe many Opti fleet officers viewed the Zoom8 as a threat when it was launched. In reality, the youth who outgrew the Opti jumped into the Zoom8 instead of becoming uncompetitive and bored in the Opti (and quitting sailing). The F-12 can be the same thing, but to a further extent, it can keep those who "abandon Opti" sailing. If it someday replace the Opti, it would be a good thing in my opinion, but I dont see that happening in the near future. Working to get a good alternative to the Opti on the water is still a positive contribution.

If you are really interested in growing Youth Sailing, start at your own location. If there is a local Community Sailing Program, Yacht Club Program, School Program, etc. go there and volunteer. All of these programs are looking for volunteers for nearly every type of task.

At our local program in Seattle, we are delivering a proposal to the City of Kirkland, to offer classes on Juanita Beach this year. This will add expand our programs to the east side of Lake Washington. See www.sailsandpoint.org. It is not so much about the boats, it is all about the people.
Caleb Tarleton

My father had a Hobie 16 when I was about 6 years old. That memory is what made me consider catamarans when I decided to get into sailing when I was 29 years old. No strangers to the ocean, beach, or boats (power mostly at this point), when I was 12 my dad and I hand built a boat very similar to a sunfish but with a little more room. It was a very functional little boat but one that scared be to death when we nearly flipped it on Port Royal Sound off Hilton Head Island, SC. It wasn't that I was a ninny or anything, but I had just seen the movie Jaws (several years after it came out) and had very little interest in finding myself immersed in the salt water.

I didn't have a whole lot of interest in getting back in the boat after that and we didn't live near any major lakes at home. I was 29 before I just happened to set foot on a sailboat again to fill in for a friend who was short on crew and the rest is pretty much public internet record.

As I remember it that was his idea. The boat was supposed to be a very simple home build but went on to become a very capable and cleaver boat raced seriously for many years and I think it still has a "Worlds".

Nice one Wouter my mind was doing something similar to this last night.
This is very simpe to built and will make a very competitive boat. The PT planes up wind in a good blow and won't pitchpole before about 35 knots(unless you are asleep). To put a little wave piercing into it and some positive boyancy lower down is just what it needs.

If this was moderately successful the whole thing could be delivered as a kit like the canoe kits out of America. Everything already cut and just assemble.
I want to add this.
Catamarans in our context are very young compared to monos.
Cats are something whose time is coming because of the desireablity.
Ever seen a holliday add with people sailing a mono. It is ALWAYS a cat.
Why are Choppers suddenly cool??? image. media enrolement. Sorry to add this but it is a real part of any growth.

I think the rig setup on the iceflyer would be good for a homebuild F12 as it lets you use a common windsurfing rig, which is cheap and lightweight, they can be picked up second hand on ebay very cheap.

Gareth

On the side I'm also working on the class rules (formula type), so are there any windsurfers out there whoe can tell me the most common surface area's for these windsurf sails.

Afterall the formula setup will allow Gareths idea to use windsurfer rigs on these F12's.

Currently I'm thinking about a max sail area limit (single sail) of max 6.0 sq. mtr. on mas 5.25 mtr masts. As for this area and mastsize I know the landyacht rigs will hold (no further design work involved here). But will that be a good max size for the people looking for cheap second hand surf sails.

Quicksilver Steve, can you help us out here ?

Additionally, How far up from the mast base are the booms fitted to the mast on a typical windsurfer ? Also this is needed to make-up the (formula) class rules.

Wouter

I'm voting for a F12 forum to start now, before all this great information and discussion gets buried in the 653 pages of the General Discussion forum. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Phill,

what if we just the hulls as a box with rectangular crossections. The sides will of course move towards eachother towards the bow and stern and the keel plate will have rocker as will the deck plate.

That would be really easy to build and how bad could it be performance wise ?

With this a homebuilder could make the hulls in a single day, right ?

Hell, the optimists are almost a square box as well.

If he wants to improve the looks and pitchpole behaviour then the homebuilder can make a styrofoam fairing on the front of the boat covered with a layer of glass and glue it to decks at the bows right ?

Its just an idea so everybody feel free to fire away.

Wouter

Wouter,
Chined boats usually change the angle of the chine along the hull and if this is the case and you are not building to be measured by templayes you could wire the panells together and fillet and glass the joins.
Now if you design a boat around chines of constant angle along the length of the hull you could glue and screw to lengths of cedar along the chines and this while a bit heavier would probably be quicker. This will restrict the shape a little and getting it to look good may be a bit of a challenge as may appropriate bouyncy distribution. You would have to be mindfull of these when doing the design. Also not sure about how the narrower deck will affect tortional stiffness of the hulls. Remember there are no stays helping lift the hull. Most of this is coming off the front beam. This may not be a huge problem but would need to be considered.

You wouldn't build a hull in a day as a one off.

As the ply is only 8ft long and the boat is 12 ft you need to decide to scarf the ply or lap join it. Usually scarf.
That would be done in one day. So in order to get average building time down to one per day you would need to be building a number of boats in production line style.
Then it is still only assebling the basic shell.

Anyhow ths is all just guess work until the design is completed and building steps can be worked out.
The devil is always in the detail.

Just an observation: Scarphing is one of the most difficult tasks for a novice boatbuilder. Especially today when most people dont know how to sharpen, adjust and use a regular plane.