Founder's Park, Islamorada Florida is Catamaran heaven! I do not see how any other place on the globe could be better!

Too much wind for me though. The starting area was pretty crowded with 65 boats and that kept me very nervous. I'm still amazed at how quickly this boat accelerates!

I had Jerry Wolfe aboard and we managed to gain some degree of team work very quickly. He had not sailed with spin before but proved to be a quick learner with lots of initiative. We still capsized under spinnaker during the first race, NOT the crews fault, and had to go to the beach for adjustments and repairs. They proved to be ineffective, because the spin bridle let go in the third race and we were dnf. That was the second time I've broken a spin bridle, if any one has an idea for a cure, I'm all ears!

One of the bright spots was watching Ollie and Kelly Jason (I think )execute a spinnaker jib. It was perfection! And Jerry and I were able to make use of the lesson right away. Of course this happened just after they lapped us! There are some very, very good sailors on the F18s, particularly on the Capricorns!

Sunday we rigged up under blustery wind and rain. We started the first race, made it to the weather mark in good time and had a good spinnaker run. But when I got to the bottom of the course, I was totally disoriented, had no idea where the weather mark was and just decided to pack it in.

By the time I got the boat rigged down, with Jerry's help, and had a hot shower, the sun was shinning and all was right with the world! I'd do it again tomorrow!

I did terrible and prefer not to post about it. Too much [censored] broke and I was not very happy. Extremely disappointed in my performance and the overall boat readiness.

Well, maybe you could write a review of the "Fish House" restaurant and "ghetto" tail gate party. It was a good weekend! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Don't forget to mention Trey's "dagger board" buffet!

Post deleted by tback

I'm interested in the broken bridle. I haven't broken one yet but did have one come unknotted in a 3/4 pitchpole. Where is yours breaking? Is this happening under sail or during the wrecks?
I think this forum can be useful at times in helping us determine where the weak points are. Plane wrecks are analyzed to improve other aircraft. I take some solace in knowing that most others are getting water in the mast. As a group we hopefully can resolve that.
Once Robi settles down, I hope he will help us out with details about the lack of preparation. So that others can learn.
Besides, I have 4 more months till I uncover the boat.

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Good shot T!

I broke the first bridle during a crash, and now that you ask, I think the second was just bad maintenance on my part. It appeared the knot just came undone. Can't blame that one on the crew!

One thing that was definetly my fault: On Saturday morning I noticed the pelican striker was bent, badly! Apparently, the rig needs to be much tighter when sailing with the jib! And, I may not have had equal tension on the bridles that attach at the pelican striker.

So, at this point, I would say the cure to much of the breakage is attention to detail BEFORE leaving the beach, duh. And keeping the boat moving on the water. The more boat speed, the less pounding the boat takes from gusts.

In the end it has to be noted that conditions were rough. Under those conditions, things break! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Key Lime pie in restaraunt: $30
Key Lime pie for take out : $15
Trey eating Key Lime Pie : Priceless
off his daggerboard

Are you sailing with the rudders turned this far all the time on the upwind ?

If so then rake your mast further forward and go faster.

wouter

As far as bridles go-
I rigged it different on my 6.0 but now that I have a boat that has a spin pole that is like the poles on the f16 (where you wrap the bridle around the pole then tie it) I need to come up with something different. Why not have a well tied loop around the tip of the spin pole then have the bridle lines made of spectra with eye splices at the precise length they would be with the pole properly tensioned? you could use small shackles to attach then to the loop on the spin pole. You could even just use one shackle to attach both bridle lines to the loop. It can be difficult getting the length right but this would elimate the knot issue, have non stretch bridle lines, and actually make set up a little easier. If you haven't learned how to eye splice spectra yet... it is so damn easy you will wonder why you haven't done it before and you will find yourself doing it everywhere else possible.
I could be way off of course, but thought I would throw that out there.

Yes that is me and what you see happened frequently on every port tack. About every 75 m ... cavitation! I'd have to sheet out and jostle the tiller to relieve the rudder of the cavitation. Felt like I had the "emergency brake" on <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Mast rake was at the center of the aft inspection port (the other F16 sloops were just below the upper gudgeon ... thus I thought I was raked forward sufficiently. I didn't want to get too vertical else risk getting too powered up as well as my ability to point.

My feedback from Tradewinds.

As the name implies, TRADEWINDS, were just that. Weather forecast was for 20+ knots on Thursday and Friday with "slightly" subsiding winds for Saturday and Sunday.

As you probably read on the OPEN Forum, one of the F18 guys bent a mast on the sail to Founder's Park on Thursday (they ended up sailing Wave's)

Winds were up on Saturday and Rick ran 3 races SABCACACF.

I sailed uni, the only uni sailor flying a chute (until Robi gave his crew all she could handle <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

I had good starts on each race, my goal going in was to be more aggressive at the line (mission accomplished); although Robi had one killer start ... can't remember which race, but he hit the line with SPEED and was off to the races!

I simply couldn't point Easily 5-10 degrees lower than every other F16. Certainly makes for a L O O O N G race course.

Race 1: Given that I was sailing the "long course", I didn't mix it up much with anyone .... so my goal was to stay upright in the puffy gusts. I sailed really low going down wind .... not bad, given that I rounded the A mark with the F18 (or they rounded me) on one leg and was about 200 m from C mark when they rounded it.

One thing that was very noticable was significant weather helm, especially on port tack. Going to weather I would stall the rudders frequently, having to sheet out and jostle the tiller extension to remove cavitation loading from the rudder. It really felt like I had the brakes on those tacks. Note: mast rake was at the center of the aft inspection portal.

Race 2: I capsized in a puff under spi', righted quckly and continued sailing finishing just as the start sequence was beginning for the F18. Not much time to rest. Basically grabbed a swallow of GatorAide and back into the start sequence for the next race.

Race 3: Last rounding A mark and did something stupid. I noticed all the F16's ahead were sailing high of B. If I went right for the mark I was almost sailing far enough off the wind to fly the chute. Okay, what have I got to lose, out goes the chute ... head up towards B mark and over I went! Okay, won't do that again!! Righted the boat and retired.

Anyway, nice to be first to the beach and watch everyone else come in. This is a good way to get prime parking <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Day 1 notes:

Matt and Gina probably did best of all boats to weather. And of course around the rest of the course too!

Seth and Stephan can really make that Taipan accelerate! Wow, they were just fast!

THE Chuck and Mavis ... well he's THE Chuck and she's a great crew.

It would have been nice to see Tom mix it up because he looked fast too. He had rudder problems, and although, he retrieved a spare rudder the housing where the pintel goes was sufficiently expanded that prevented him from racing on Sunday.


Sunday the winds were supposed to be 10-12. NOT! The moring started off with rain with the first race run mostly in the rain with 15-20 knot winds and more gusty than Saturday. Three more SABCACACF.

Robi started uni and raced the first race ...we had some dueling but he was pointing better and much faster than me ....

The line was considerably smaller as Tom had left, Robi and Pete had failures and retired, THE Chuck was 3 minutes late to start after hitting the beach for repairs (he won that race!!).

All and all, it was a great venue, good weather and an all around fun time!

Thanks Rick, Mary, Barbara and all the race volunteers.

Thanks!
Great report.

Terry,

Dunno if this snapshot captures an accurate glimpse of your trim because I realize you're changing it constantly. But FWIW, I would be running a lot less mast rotation to weather in those conditions (mast track aimed at the end of the rear beam) as well as full/tight outhaul (making foot almost flat) and cranked cunningham/downhaul. I may travel out just a tad and then sheet hard, making the sail extremely flat.

Since the helm problem seems to be on only one tack, you might check on your diamond and shroud tensions (symmetric).

I also has a similar problem once and found I had bent the rudder cross bar making it shorter and toeing in the rudders; the problem was on both tacks, though.

Sounds like a great event--thanks for the report

I am going to try to report so here goes:
I arrived at the keys Thursday around noonish local time. After around an hour of chatting and mingling with a good amount of F18 sailors, I noticed a boat coming to shore. It was a Nacra F18 with a broken mast. They broke their mast just above the hounds. Winds were gustier on Thursday than any other day. They informed that the mast already was kinked from prior racing.

Friday the winds were still very gusty, very early in the day. I arrived at Founders Park around 10am. No one was there yet. I parked my boat and went for a bite to eat. Once I returned there were a few boats already there and starting to get setup. I was all setup by 3pm. At 330pm EST I went out for a test sail. On our way out to the bay, two trapeze wire swedges gave way and my crew went swimming. This was totally my fault for either using wrong swedges (they were stainless steal, I figured stainless steal on stainless steal is not good enough and does not hold) or not swedging them good enough. I had shortened them by six inches each. In my opinion, my trapeze wires were too long from the factory. The swedges I did slipped causing my crew to fall overboard. She fell once on SB and the other on Port tacks. OK so now two trapeze wires are down. I decided to call it an afternoon and went back to the beach. I hustled and bustled to get them repaired at the local marine/boat shop.

Saturday morning I got to the boat, to install my repaired trapeze wires. I had to cut another two to three inches off the already shorter trap wires, making them even shorter. After going out and starting the first race, my crew went swimming again. This time the line had chaffed against the trapeze eye causing a week point and splash again for my crew. She was separated and The Chuck picked her up out of the water.

On our downwind leg on port tack heading towards the C mark, we had a VIOLENT pitch pole. We were smacked really badly by a huge puff causing me to crash against my crew pinning her against the side stay wire. We stuffed the bows and over we went. It was so violent I barely remember it, all I remember is seeing her face in pain and her screams. I was seriously concerned for her. Therefore, what I did was tell her to hold on to me and forget about the boat. We sat in the water for a good three to four minutes. I had to make sure she was not seriously injured. After she felt a little better, I started to do my thing to right the boat. Once I righted the boat off we went to finish the race. To make matters worst, I finished the race, no gun went off, and no one was paying attention. I was so far behind the RC assumed I had called it quits. I had to inform them I was not throwing out that race. It was the ONE and ONLY race I finished.

After we finished our first and only race, I notice my crew was not doing so well. I asked if she wanted me to go drop her off the beach. She felt kind of pressured and said no. I noticed she was not feeling too good, so I said, no way! And that I was going to drop her off at the beach. She had/has a good-sized bruise behind her right leg and could barely move it.

After I dropped her off, I made it back out to the racecourse and waited a few minutes for the third start. I started ok and completed the first triangle. SABC after rounding C and heading upwind, my trap broke. Remember the chaffing I was talking about? Well I went swimming this time. I had the mainsheet, but I was pulled so hard that I hurt my wrist good. The mainsheet somehow got wrapped around my arm when going over and the boat gave me a good squeeze. After I righted the boat and finally started to feel the pain in the wrist I decided ok, enough is enough and returned to shore.

Sunday morning I installed some micro blocks to avoid chaffing and removed the excess trapeze wires. I went out solo. The winds were still as strong as Saturday. The puffs were still there. The first race I had an awesome start. I noticed the McDonalds and Terry heading towards the line. I headed off and got a good position under Terry. I was starting to luff him on the line, when I noticed I had a lot of boat speed. If I maintained my course, I was going to be over early. Therefore, I found a hole further down the line so I started heading down. This caused me to gain good speed, once I heard the gun go off, I was sure I was the first over the line for that race. Everything was feeling good. Boat trim was good, rudders felt great. I was feeling good. I held on to my position for a good amount of time. Half way down to A mark, Seth passed me to Windward, as if I was standing still. WOW can he make that taipan move. By then I new the McDonalds were already in front. I was in third place, with Seth and McDonalds in front. I still had The Chuck, Terry and Pete behind, but hot on my heels. UNTIL I TACKED! Remember the shortened trap lines? Well when I was getting ready to tack, I could NOT reach my handle. I thought to myself, great. NOW WHAT! I had to let go of something, but what? The mainsheet or the TILLER! Which one is worst? All I could remember was Rick White yelling at me over the bullhorn as of why I did not have the mainsheet in my hand, and well I cannot really let go of the tiller! Therefore, I cleated the mainsheet and threw line onto the tramp. Not the best decision, but I could not do anything else. Once I tried to get onto the boat, I lost my footing, remember I am trapping extremely low now. I was in the water and I thought I was going to bring the boat over. I lost all my speed and heading. By then Chuck already passed me. Terry was sailing too low so I still had some room with him. Pete I thought had already called it quits, not sure. After I managed to dime tack, I started making way again. By then Terry was right on me, he was probably only 10 yards behind. After rounding A we both started reaching. I had good speed, but was sailing a bit higher. I was reeling in The Chuck and Terry was hot on my heels. After rounding B Mark we both hoisted our spinnakers and headed towards C mark. We traded gibes with no more than 10 yards between us. At one point Terry had passed me. I was in front of Terry at the C mark; we started doing our upwind sailing. He was sailing lower I was pinching darn well. I had good boat speed, but not enough to catch the sloops by now. My main concern was not to flip. After rounding A mark I hoisted the spinnaker and I am trucking along darn good, until a huge puff hit me and over I went. I was holding onto the rear beam and I fell on top of the main. ¾ of the mainsail popped out of the mast track and when I went to retrieve the spinnaker, my snuffer hoop shattered into two pieces. That was the end of it for me. I headed back to the beach early.

What I learned about this Tradewinds event?
NEVER EVER do too much to your boat without prior sailing testing. I did not have a chance to test the boat before going down to this event. I changed the traps, downhaul, mast rotation controls and some other stuff. Practice practice practice. It has been close to a month and half since I last sailed my boat. It felt like I was on the boat again for the first time. Don’t know why, but that is how I felt. “Prior Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance”

Questions? Feel free to ask.

Terry,

I notice you've got the traveller dropped a good few inches. This should be the last thing to go when you're trying to trying to depower. Get everything else pulled in like Eric suggests, especially the downhaul - go mad on that.

Sailing unirig, you should be able to out-point the sloops (although you won't go faster in that weather). Judging an entire weekend's sailing by a one photos is obviously totally unfair, but it looks/sounds like you've depowered to the point that you're close reaching up the the course in order to get boat speed.

Nothing like unsolicited advice, eh? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Paul

I have a sail of the same sailmaker and I'm sailing with an almost straight mast when cat rigged. If I don't do that then I get what you have. Other things to tune are traveller and the foot of the mainsail. Both seem to aggrevate this behaviour when set wrong.

Otherwise your rudders are mistaligned.

Don't compare your settings to sloop as both can be rather different.

I went down the same road with my redhead mainsail and now it sails much better without throwing up roostertails. Roosters tails are very draggy and can really hold you back. Everything and anything that adds drag to the boat when in cat rigged mode will kill speed especially upwind. Here being low drag is key when sailing an F16.

I've just finished a hole year of singlehanding my F16 in the races.

Wouter

Bring it on! Eager to learn and improve.

Ironically, on Friday I set my mast rake fairly straight ... went out for a sail and had neutral (to leeward) weather helm. When I hit the beach I raked back (primarily to de-power the boat as I thought the winds were going to be too high for me as a uni). I guess I should have left the settings as the drag on the rudders certainly de-powered me <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> to the point of being frustrating!

Thanks for the advice....a picture certainly is worth 1k words.

Great effort getting back aboard! I didn't think you were gonna make it.

[quote. . .Where is yours breaking? [/quote]

Very close to the bow. When I think about it, the first break was a metal "quick link" that failed in a capsize. This time it was a faulty knot. In both cases, I was trying to save time during set-up.

Time to go to the Capricorn system, which Jake Kohl showed me at Tradewinds (and which Wouter has previously posted on line <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />)

I would think the system will be stronger and simpler by eliminating all unnecessary loops and links. I'll try to post an illustration, unless Wouter beats me to it, ( hint).

btw- Patrick, there is no proof without pictures! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

We broke a rudder blade going to C for the first time during Race 1. Stuffed the bow, bore off and heard a huge crack. Same puff (or very close to) the puff that pitchpoled Chuck and Mavis. We didn't pitchpole but came to an abrupt halt long enough to see both Chuck and Mavis with the boat and working their way onto the hull. At that point we were close enough to see Matt/Gina and Seth/Stefan round C mark. We rounded C mark, but obviously had helm problems the rest of the race (the starboard rudder was flexing back and forth) and quickly lost contact with the lead boats. We were able to finish Race 1 in third place and start Race 2. We made the first triangle of race 2 (again, not competitive due to helm problems on port tack) and almost all the way back to A when the pressure from the broken starboard rudder popped the port rudder stock off the top pintle. We made our way back to the beach and scavenged a replacement rudder blade from Matt. We did notice the port rudder stock had a small crack on the lower portion (where the lower gudgeon pin goes in). We hoped it was only a surface crack.....

Sunday was rainy and blustery. We loaded the rudders back on, rigged the sails and got in line to get off the beach. It was downwind to the start so we put the spin up as we were a little late getting off the beach. As soon as the spin filled and loads were put on the rudders - BOOM, the whole port rudder casting exploded off the boat. The lower part of the rudder stock was ripped from the lower gudgeon pin. I guess it was not a “surface crack”. Done for the day/weekend.

We sailed the boat back to the beach using the tiller arm on the leeside for steerage. That was fun in the breeze. Loaded the boat on the trailer and headed home.

It was nice to see everyone and get some 80 degree sunshine, wish we could have participated in more of the racing.

Engineering questions:
1. Is it plausible that the broken starboard rudder caused the rudder stock problems on the port side (rudder stock popped of the top gudgeon pin and eventually complete rudder stock failure)?
2. We looked at the starboard gudgeons and they looked to be slightly misaligned (not much), but enough to distinguish with the naked eye. Would rudder not exactly in the vertical plane or not matching the port rudder’s plane be more apt to break? I’ll take some pictures and post them when I can.

I’d like to find out the root cause as to breaking the starboard rudder, as this is the second one that I have broken. Being the starboard rudder could be coincidence as both happened sailing downwind under spin on port tack in heavy wind.

It is entirely possible that my “technique” for bearing off was/is a little too radical and not as smooth as it should be. Heck, I was just trying to avoid an ender.

Sounds like something funny's going on with those rudders. Where are they breaking? And did they both go in the same way?

Sailing with one broken rudder would mean putting more load on the other rudder in order to get the same movement, but even so, I'd expect to have to seriously abuse a rudder to get it to break (short of hitting something, obviously).

Have you checked the rudder rake? If you've got them raked way forward under the boat, that might explain something. Someone on this forum talked of forward rake causing breakages (Rolf, was it you?), but I would have thought you'd have to use ridiculous rake for this to happen.

Paul

Tom Korz and I had a great time sailing down there, (f18 Tiger U-204) we were a little rusty but got smoother as the weekend progressed, unfortunatly so did everybody else. sat we had spin halyard problems, I replaced the block on the mast bail cause the old one was almost worn through, but the new block was too light and loaded up every time I had to raise the spin. Took a two handed pull standing up every pull to get the spin up! very tiring and slow, lost a lot of ground at the hoist every time. I learned a lot though and my crew is in for it this year. (I usually drive and I crewed for tom on my boat for this regatta) I have a lot more respect for crew now!

The breaks were internal right at the hole for the raising/lowering point (hole drilled through with a line going through it) and right under the bottom of the rudder stock. No "real" outward facing damage until we sailed with it for an hour or so and the head split at the seam. The rudders continue to evolve in their construction method. I guess there is no "Tom proof" carbon rudder yet. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Not passing judgement on any parts, but I need to know if I have a setup problem that I can correct. When I get everything back together, I will post pics of rudder rake, alignment, et al. Until then, we can only guess at the underlying issues.

Good to see you guys down there. We set up right next to you guys on Friday. It is always good to get a new perspective. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hope the trip back was uneventful.

trip back was mostly eneventfull, till we got 20 miles from home then fog/rain/ice/snow. oh yea got that monster motorhome stuck in steve's front yard, eventually got it out and I made it home. Thanks for the help when I changed out that block on the mast.

oh yea, on our site www.204underground.com there is some pics of people and boats from tradwinds. check and see you might be in some.

That is a purely US modification. Aussies and EU sailors just sail with the rod system.

Wouter

I'm certainly not an expert in blade construction, but is that hole sealed in any way? If not, would it not let water into the core of the rudder, causing it to be come soft? That point in the rudder is going to be under serious load.

Paul

Wouter,

Can you (or anyone in the know) elaborate on this rod system in use elsewhere but not in the US?

Good to know about a possible design/construction issue now, the Blade's at the top of our short-list of boats to buy. Better to know how to avoid the problem altogether.

The US builder received a set up rod kickup rudders that were seriously below par. I guess this spooked them. Anyway something caused them to redesign the rudder setup using lines and kick-up cleats. It may also have been the seaweed floating around florida.

Currently both AHPC and Catamaranparts are producing rod system kick-up rudders that pass the "properly done" test. There are some builders out there that make similar rudder systems but the first one we tried delivered us crap work. And this is really an achievement as the rod is so incredibally simple that you have to make an effort to %^*&$* it up.


All the parts used in the rudders are shown in the picture below, there are no more parts, no spring, bungees or lines. There is just a one piece rudder stock the rudderblade and the rod with it locking pin a locking plate.




For more info on the rod system look here.

http://www.ahpc.com.au/pdf/Using%20Smart%20Lk%20Snap%20System.pdf

And yes it is truly a kick-up system and it works really well too. And, no, it is not a Hobie setup so , yes, you'll have to give yourself a little bit of time to figure out how to operate it. Once you do however you'll not want to go back to any nacra or hobie system. Biggest advantage, almost no moving parts. Dirt or salt doesn't bother it and once tuned and taped up they keep their settings for years and years.

Pretty much the rod is a more or less flexibly glass rod with black heat shrink around it. The heat shrink is there you won't get any splinters in your hands. The metal ending near the rearbeam has a pin in it that falls into a hole in a stainless steel plate fitted to the tiller. This happens when the rudder is down. For the rudder to move up it needs to press the pin out of it locking hole. As the pin is straight it can't do that UNLESS the rod itself is bending giving the pin the angle of the vertical as well. So with enough force the rod bend a little allowing the pin to pop out of its locking hole, the rod is then unsupported and the rudder moves up further.

On my stocks I tighten the bolts a little so the rudder just jams a little inside the stock now I can disengage the rods and sail through to surf with the rudders down and full control. As soon as the tips hit the bottom the rudders are pushed up. Only a little bit of contact is needed for that. When the surf is a shallow as 0.5 mtr the breakers are behind me. I've been doing this for 3 years now and everything is fine. Only now you can see that a little gelcoat is rubbed off the very ends ot the rudderboards.

If you really want to know all the details then Skype me sometime.

Or contact Tim Bohan, I used him my setup when he was over here at my place, he'll tell you what he saw and that it was good.

Before I forget the carbon rudder stocks of AHPC look much nicer then the ones show in the PDF document (old alu setup).

Wouter

The European Blades from Catamaranparts (imported from VWM) come with rudders and stock made by Catamaranparts. It's a simple but effective system. Stocks are made from aluminium.

I think the rods are basically similar to at least one version of the US Blades. A rod on the top of the rudder has a pin which pushes into a hole on the top of the rudder arm. This hold the rudder down, but if the rudder hits something solid, the rod should bend and the pin pop out.

What's different is that the geometry of the blades, stocks and rods is such that the blades can rotate through more than 180 degrees. When you want to raise the rudders, you take the rod out of the rudder arm, pull forward to raise the rudder then push back and down to cause the rudder to flip upwards, until it is resting facing slightly forward. See http://www.formula16.org/component/optio...ageViewsIndex=1

This gets the rudders completely clear of the water. Most similar systems only pull the rudders up to the horizontal, and then reattached the rod to the rudder arm using a different hole and a clip.

I have the above system on my Blade and have no complaints. There's very little to go wrong. The only disadvantage I've found is that the blades are fairly easy to knock down whilst you're rigging the boat. On the other hand, you don't trip over them, and they don't get blown to the side when you're pushing your boat around on the land, as the would if the rudders were horizontal.

When it comes to simple-but-effective systems, I'm also a fan of the dagger rudders on the Stealths. Very easy to get up and down, and they allow you to have the rudders half-down for shallow water and still be effective.

Paul

here we go

The AHPC version (building of Taipans Capricorns)


UP !




And down





And here the catamaran parts version :

When up




Sorry I haven't a picture of it in down position, but the concept is identical the AHPC setup the only difference is that the stock is made out of bend square alu tubing and that the rudder can rotate upwards beyond 180 degrees and be clear of shins and damage. If you turn the axle bolt a little tighter then if will stay up very well.


Both setups weight just under 1.50 kg per side. Together with the crossbar and tiller extension these systems weight (in my case) 3.078 kg or just under 7 lbs. I've abused them pretty hard and they are still going strong. I did have to glue an extra layer of carbon to one stock after I had been pushed back by a big breaking wave when leaving the beach and jammed my rudder between a sandbar and the hull, while the boat moved backwards. There must have been some force on the rudder then. Funny enough I only added this local reinforcement a year after the accident happened as I was lazy but eventually figured that that spot would turn into a weak spot as the fibres were bend a little and delaminating. The other stock and all the rest of the first one is just as I got them.

Another great feature are the red snap-on connector for the crossbar (and also tiller extension). No fiddling with retaining pins or clips. And the rudders remain straight when sailing under a spi and laying down the tiller for a while.

Personally I don't want any other system anymore. Quite a few A-cats and all the Capricorns have these setups as well.

Wouter

I believe that the additional holes for the "line based" raising/lowering system may be the culprit. There are actually two more holes in the rudder blade in that system rather than with the "rod" system. One hole drilled for the stopper knot and one hole drilled 90 degrees to that so that the line can be fed out of the rudder, up the stock and to the jam cleat. These holes are located just below the bottom of the rudder stock - where the loads would be quite high. I believe the newest rudder blades are solid core construction, instead of having some internal foam. My rudder blades were produced right after the US switch from "rods" to "lines", so they may not have been suited to that change.

BTW, Vectorworks as been great about sharing improvements and open to frank discussion about the product. I sincerely believe they are close to getting all the right pieces in place. My only problems have been the rudder blades and my problems may be more related to the timing of my boat delivery than anything else.

I once repaired a sheared off A-cat daggerboard for a friend. He hit a large underwater rock on his first outing with the boat, and the daggerboard sheared off cleanly below the hull. When removing the pain and some glass for repair, it became evident that the manufacturer had drilled and filled a 10mm hole at the leading edge. The shear started just at the hole, by design I suppose. Much better to break the board than cleaving the hull.
If you look at the bottom picture, you can just make out the hole at the leading edge in front of the light foam.

Wouter, I thought VWM (US Blades) are using the same rudders as in the pictures? Are they not from AHPC too? I thought the US buyers were doing the up-down string mods themselves. I liked your setup after I got used to it, I don't see the need to drill holes and add strings. Less is more to me. Dermot's Spitfire has a similar system and he added a small rubber bungie loop around the tiller bars to slip over the up-down rod after you set it in the down possition.

The only drawback to this system vs. a Hobie or Nacra type system is you must go down to the low side rudder to lift the rod/rudder unless you just want to run the rudder aground to have it kick up. It's not a big deal on a lake but if you are in the ocean, coming to shore with the wind behind you in surf, well, you don't want to go down to the low side to raise the rudder or you will risk a wipe out in the surf. In that case, I would just let it hit bottom and kick up...as long as the bottom is sand, not rocks! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

The "strings" method is standard for the 2006 VMI Blades from what I can tell. No aftermarket changes. The 2005 boats may have had the rods, but they were not AHPC (they were Mackenzie, spelling?) and deemed inferior for some reason (not the rod system in general, but that particular rod system) as Wouter stated above.

The very first boats had a system we purchased that did not work very well.

We then began development of the rope sytem I am using now and personaly prefer for surf and weeds, but in reality it is whatever you get used to.

We have always offered a redesigned rod system, and for the last year that system is the one made by Catamaran parts that they install as standard for the boats we build for Europe.

If anyone wants to talk about it with me off line they are always welcome.

Matt

The McKenzies are were junk. It is the system I had. The rod would not bend, but the stainless steal screw did. WHAT A PAIN IN THE AAHOLE to replace that screw once bent. Also the rudder arms going to the stocks were underengineered. I must have done around two or three repairs already to each stock. The ones that came on my boat, were junk. I have done extensive modifications to my rudder system and today it is a much better setup.

Others have mentioned it, but the guy who was supposed to make good rudder systems delivered what I think to be absolute junk. VWM was as much on the receiving end as the customers were. The European builder was send the same stuff and yes even I broke one setup while test sailing the EU Blade prototype (not my boat) for the first time.

I had warmly recommended this setup to this builder based on my own experiences with the AHPC version. After the breakages I looked more closely at the setup and the design had some major dumb%^@ features. Funny enough the set of "pilot" rudders on which further orders were based is still reported to be excellent and going strong. I have serious trouble surpressing the idea that we have been scammed. First set immaculate and the next 10 sets all junk ? What are the odds ?

But enough of that. Vectorworks Marine got busy immediately when this was discovered and came up with a much better setup then these initial ones.

Still the basic concept of the rod system is sound. I'm one of those guys that goes out through the surf and comes back again through it each time I go for a sail. I do sail of a sandy beach that is true, but most of the time I'm approaching the waterline at 2 m/s to 4 m/s and have to run it up the beach as I'm singlehanding now 90 % of time and the next breaker is getting close.

There is a trick to traversing the surf with these rudders and it works rather well. More about this later first the questions.



No they are not. Pictures = AHPC and catamaranparts. The others were ...... (see other posts)




Some did, but correct me if I'm wrong Matt the string systems were developped by VWM as a working alternative to the not working setups.




This is not really the case. See end of this post. It is actually the Hobie and Nacra system that are at a disadvantage. And I say that after having completed my 10th season sailing beach cats through the surf.




And this is exactly where this setup is at an advantage.


With this rod system your rudders stay down even with the locking rod disengaged. You achieve this by tightening the retaining bolt that holds the rudder in the stock a little. This presses the sides of the stock to the rudder cheeks just a little. When steering the pressure on the rudderblade presses the cheecks even harder agains the stocks and keeps the rudder in the stock. But when the rudders are straight and the tip ever so lightly touches bottom then the rudders will unjam and swing up immediately. In effect you have an extremely light kick-up trigger but one that doesn't kick-up when loading up the rudder while steering. Thus you got full control in the big wild surf and you still don't damage your rudders when beaching.

So what I (singlehanding) do when there is a big surf through which I need to come in is park the boat just outside of the surf and the preceding steep waves. I look over the surf and the beach and windshifts to decide were I want to end up. Then I take my daggerboard out completely on the final leeward side. I also raise my final luff daggerboard a little so I know it is not jammed and that I easily raise it out completely with one hand. I throw the tiller extension out over the back and with still head to wind I disengage the rudder locking down rod on the eventual leeward side and through it in the water over the rudder head. I leave the rudder slightly jammed in its stock. By the way, I set this jamming 2 years ago and never adjusted it since, I did however catch 4 anchor/bouy chains with it in that time and the rudders did kick up nicely without and damage so the kick-up mechanisme is not jammed up tight. Then I go the future luff rudder and just disengage the rod. I don't throw it back in water over the rudder head this time. Later I will pull on this rod to kick-out the rudder.

So now I'm ready to go in ! I choose my waves and I'm careful not to speed up to much (could kick out the rudders) so I stay between two waves and ride them to shore. After I have traversed the line of the largest breakers and arrive in relatively calmer water I give a jank on the rod and the luff rudder comes up (it floats). The leeward rudders is still down and I have very good control even if the luff hull is lifted. I then spot the place where the water depth is such that my leeward rudder will touch (not hit) bottom. When I get there I help by slowing down and keep my rudders straight. The leeward rudder then unjams very easily and I don't even feel it so I look if it is up yet and floating to the surface. I know now that the water is only 0.50 mtr deep (less then 2 feet) and I grab my luff daggerboard and pull it out completely. If I have time I may drag my feed in the water trying to slow down as much as possible. Then my keels touch bottom and I jump off uncleating all my sails and travellers and I run to the bows and pull the boat forward while turning it head to wind at the same time. The rudders will then track nicely behind the boat.

Now trying doing this with hobie rudders. These are either engaged and balanced or disengaged and unbalanced making steering through the surf sluggish and heavy. Sailing them onto the beach engaged requires some force to kick them out. Going down to lee to disengage them while sailing through the surf is dangerous as you easily can loose control here. I disenage my rudders while I'm parked head to wind and when I'm in full control. I do nothing else in the surf but sit on the luff hull, steer and sheet my mainsail. With my rudders still down I can completely take out my leeward daggerboard and even alot of luff daggerbaord. Afterall my rudders are still balanced and so I don't suffer much from weatherhelm at all. In effect I only have to let go of the tiller and sheet at the very last moment (0.5 mtr dept) to pull the last bit of luff board out. By that time the danger is largely gone.


Getting out through the surf is also better because I can again use the slight jamming of the rudder in the stock to good effect.

When I get out I either leaving my lee rudder up or have it drag behind the boat. It dependents on the conditions which one I choose for the day. The locking rod for the luff rudder is hanging over the tiller. I get out and make speed and keep it. I set a little bit of daggerbaord as soon I feel that I have more the 0.5 mtr water under my keels. Even 0.10-0.15 mtr of daggerbaord makes a large difference. When I feel I need more steerage I pull the rudder up by the rod and then quickly push it down. Its weight and momentum will swing it down and jam it a little in the stock. I can steer very well and I'm not fiddling with the rudder to make it engage (lock) (Prindle's ?). Sometimes the tip hits the second sandbank and the rudder just pops up very easily. Once I'm over it and feel that I have dept again I pull it up and quickly jank it down. I repeat this till I'm through the surf then I seek a nice spot and park the boat head to wind. Then I engage both rudders fully by setting the lock rod and then I put my daggerboards fully down. And ready I am to go have a good time.

I've done this on quite a few other boats with different systems and while the Hobie system is nice I now prefer this locking rod setup. Mostly because the tiller is always firm as it is not part of the locking mechanism and because the rod system allows you develop new technique for crossing the surf and I found these to be better and more comfortable.

The AHPC setup I have is also very stiff giving precise steerage and hitting the crossbar won't result in kick-ups or lock-downs.

An added benefit is that the rods a springy by design. So when I hit a jelly fish (many in august) I feel a small jolt through the boat and I see the rod bend , acting as shock breaker, and the rudder move back and forward again. If for some reason it doesn't move all the way forward I just press down on the rod push out the residual bend and the rudder is tucked fully under again.

Also this system simply won't wear out (when using stainless steel locking plate) I retuned it ones two seasons ago and I'm still sailing like that. No nacra style slipping lines, no hobie style cam problems and Prindle style dirt/salt problems.

And of course it is the lightest ruddersetup available, there is hardly anything there !

My board was 1080 grams and my stock was 478 grams. For an F16 weight is important.


I hope this helps

Wouter

I want to make it abundantly clear that I am not bitching about anything about the boat as a whole or the job VM does. I even said it may be my own set up of the system, some credence to that since the other Blade owner's have not had this problem, eh.

Given the opportunity to buy a boat now, I'd be lining up one of the Alter Cup boats. Most fun I've had sailing in a while.

I've never dealt with a more open-minded, easy to reach dealer/builder - always available for advice, tuning tips, etc.

Oh please

The only drawback to the nacra system is the springs wear out. Big woop.

I used the rods one day on a marstrom tornado and it was horrrrible trying to get that stuff to lock down.

Marstrøms Tornado system dont resemble the AHPC rod system at all. If it was the stock Marstrøm rudders, they are a lot more complicated and need tuning by someone who understand how they should be set up before they work well.

well the guy who owned the boat makes carbon tornados. I think he knows what he's doing <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes, but you seem unable to discern between a Marstrøm rudder setup and an AHPC rudder setup. The latter being discussed here and which you jugded was crap based on your experience with a totally different Marstrøm setup.

If you want to talk ABOUT F16s, you should BUY an F16. Or are you too skered! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I have no interest in the F16 class other than a source of amusement. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And if I were to acquire a 16' cat, it would be a H16 or I'd build one myself.

Naw, ur a'skered! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

If it helps you sleep at night thinking that <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(and just so you know, when I say, "source of amusement" I meant "reading wouter's posts". I wish Sam would come back!)

Jeez, ur no fun.

Skeered? Who didn't sail very many races at TW because there WAS wind? I rest my case there....

If you want to participate or discuss something productive, great! If you just want to cheer for the sorry sod with his hate campaign and spread discord, you can find somewhere else to do it.

It was and is a joke! Further, I don't explain myself to people less than half my age. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> If I were truly questioning his courage, I would have used that word.

On a serious note, I suspect you have never been in a truly fearful situation. I hope you never are.

Ahh come on guys.

Lets understand their point of view.

Trey and Maugan are just pissed off that N20's didn't make class while the F16's did.

They have to cope with being part of a dying class, holding on valiantly against all odds, while we all have the luxury of feeling part of a class that is on track towards great succes.

Not that I'm amused by that or anything ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

I guess the "skeered" part set them off. I apologize. I talk it all back! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

[color:"green"] [/color] ENVY [color:"green"] [/color] is by far a more appropriate word.

Here a better picture of the www.catamaranparts.nl rudder setup.



The comments from the blade owners I questioned about it is that its a very good profile.


Wouter

Any idea how much?

Mine came with the boat, so I don't know the individual price. Get in touch with Hans on this forum, or email [email][email protected].[/email] It sounds like Matt might be able to supply them to you direct in the US.

Paul

I'm pretty sure I've seen those at VectorWorks Marine's shop.

This can well be the case.

You know what would be the best setup in my opinion ?

Catamaranparts rudderblades, stocks and U-connector with the AHPC rod setup.

The AHPC supplied rod setup with stainless steel backing plates is just perfect. The handle (stainless steel tube at the end) is just the right size to allow for easy engaging of the rod setup and the head of the pin is rounded so it slides very easily into its locking hole even when the pin is not perfectly aligned with the hole. Also the heatshrink cover over the glass rod is very nice. Look good and takes care of all and any problems concerning glass rods. Also the dimensions are just right, You don't have to lean back far over the back of the boat at all.

Then the Catamaran parts rudder profile is the best so far in the F16 class. And it better be because it is used on quite alot of other boat types like the A's.

Personally I think the carbon stocks look cool, but the alu stocks are far more degradation (=UV and sandblasting) resistant and cheaper to produce. They weight as good as the same anyway. So again I must say that there doesn't appear to be any reason to make use of carbon cloth in the rudderstocks.

That would be my perfect rudder setup for the F16.

Wouter

I are sooo skeered of you guys.
Wouter, don't lump me in the group with Maugan...he's in a class by himself (hi Tad).
But...
Dying class? I don't buy that...
Tradewinds is the only regatta I've been to in the past year that had an F16 class. I've been to quite a few regattas (I put 45,000 miles on my vehicle last year due to them!).
Also, who says I only want to sail in a class? I not only sail the Nacra 20 in buoy races and distance races, but also on other badass runs. I like the boat for its power, handling, and sheer fun. I like to have a larger tramp, because the girl who gets on my boat isn't 4' tall... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Wouter, are you going to do Texel this year? I am...

The Marstrom system is a rod system, but an inelegant one.

I've got the AHPC rod system on my vintage Tornado and have sailed with the Marstrom system.

The Marstroms have an excellent section and weight and craftsmanship. However, keeping them locked down has been a nightmare. I expect they were adjusted properly, as they were bought second hand from Charlie Ogletree. They do use a rod hold down system, but with a delrin rectangle at the end of the rod and around the tiller to hold the rod down, and with a spring loaded catch with a delrin roller to hold the rod down. The problems we have had were with the hold-down catch not doing its job, and we've often resorted to tying down the arm with a velcro strap. Without the rod tiedown, the system is very easy to raise and lower.

The Marstrom foils also tend to crack at the "step" just below the rudder stock. Many at the nationals had this problem. It must be a real revenue generator for Marstrom, especially at their premium prices. Oh, and the left and right Marstrom rudders are not interchangable. You can't buy just one spare. :-/

In my experience, the Hobie system is painfully unreliable, and the foil quality has been poor. The Tiger foils have probably made a great leap this year, however, with the introduction of new foils from Mitch Booth. Still, the lock-down mechanism on my old boats made me hate-hate-hate them.

The AHPC system on my boat is very light, very simple, and very effective. The price is great. There is no slop whatsoever. The Taipan 5.7 foil, which I use, have a Tornado profile but the foil section is considered noncompetitive compared to the Marstrom in Tornado circles, but that's irrelevant to 99% of sailors.

I'm so impressed with the elegant AHPC foils that I'm dreaming of buying a Viper F16. The problems with the AHPC system are *very* minor: the rod hold-up hole stress plate is unnecessarily rivetted at the highest stress point of the tiller (where it meets the stock and is rivetted to it), and that's where my tiller broke when a guest skipper landed on it. The kick-up rod tends to roll-off the top of the round tiller arm as it activates, which makes me worry it might ever malfunction (but it never has). It can be a little fiddly locking down in the surf. And you must reach back and pull up the middle of the rod to unlock it.

But I happily tolerate these trivial details because the mechanism has been 100% reliable and take-your-breath-away light. Just holding them makes me dream of having an AHPC boat attached to them. If the viper is as well thought out as these foils, then it will be an awesome boat.

My source told me the Viper would be available at the beginning of this year. We'll see. Also, I heard from Robbie Daniel that the Capricorn F18 is the most completely assembled out of the crate of any boat he's seen, with most everything integrated in the front beam and pre-rigged. I expect the Viper F16 will be similar.

I've got an AHPC boat attached to said foils; they do great workmanship. I got my Taipan new, in crates and it went together flawlessly. My concerns is that the Viper hulls are going to be made elsewhere and AHPC is making no attempt to come near F16 minimum weight.

No I'm not, but then again I've already done that a few times.

Besides, I'm skeered of you beating me while sailing a much larger boat !

Wouter

As you can see in the picture this issue has been solved with the carbon rudders. The hold-up bracket is now on the other end of the tiller near the connection to the crossbar.

Wouter

Well it is now known that Jim Boyer is no longer making any catamarans. He used to make those excellent quality Taipan hulls. In effect AHPC had to move shop to somewhere else. My hope is that with the capricorn F18 being build somewhere else from very early on that they have solved the infancy issues while doing that boat. Hopefully this will allow the Viper F16 to be done right first time around.

Still, the choses AHPC makes do add a little weight to the boat. They really believe that with the right design (hulls, beams and rig) the overall weight of the boat won't matter enough unless it is far away from the minimum. Experiences with the Capricorn and the much lighter Taipan 5.7 have taught them that, they say. I too would love to see the Viper at 107 kg ready to go, but even the standard Blade F16 doesn't get that low after a couple of year refining the design, pretty much they are 110 kg in standard attire. The special upgraded versions can get to minimum weight however.

AHPC hops to use the Capricorn F18 beams for the Viper F16 and thus get a very stiff platform. Greg had now put many many many years in optimizing the spinnakers and mainsails. Goodall yacht sails in confident that they have got the F16 rig just right now. Considering how the capricorns are doing in races they may just have a point there. Viper hull shape is said to have been upgraded with the experiences gained with again the Capricorn F18.

So this pretty much leaves the Viper F16 with only as drawback that it is not expected to be at the minimum F16 class weight. But neither is the spitfire (140 kg) and that is still a very fast design as shown by results in France and UK. So maybe Greg does have a point here, maybe being a little overweight doesn't hurt so much. And the Viper will still be noticeably lighter then the Spitfire.

I know the intended all-up-weight but I'm uncomfortable publizing it here without AHPC's concent. I personally would like to see just a few more kg shaved of it, but then again I'm not in doubt that it will be a bloody hard boat to beat despite its extra weight. If the hull is compensated in its displacement for this extra weight then the increase in drag could indeed be rather small indeed.

On the things I know I wouldn't write off this Viper F16. It will take a whole lot more for that to happen.


Wouter

What are you going to be sailing?

Any F16s planning to do it this year? I'd love to do it, but probably won't, unless I can happily coincide it with a work trip. It's a pretty expensive trip from the UK, otherwise.

Paul

Well I might be tempted to sail Texel if I can find an experienced crew who will pay half the costs.

Or when I find an experienced skipper with boat looking for a crew who will pay half.

But I can't do it on my own. Too expensive, too much hassle and too bloody crowded on the start line, in the surf and on the water.

But I really DON'T want to do it with an inexperienced crew or skipper. I gets rough out there during most years. And I don't have any spare money for boat repairs.

Wouter

I'm chartering a Nacra 20 for the race.

But seriously Trey, it is good to know that catsailors from all over the world, like you, come over to do this event.

It is certainly a honour that foreigners are seriously considering such a thing and making the expenses to do so.

I certainly do hope that it will be everything that you expect it to be.

I'm not joking here. I really do mean that. I wish you the best of weather and enjoyment.

Wouter

Hey, why don't you two sail Texel together?? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Rumor mill is starting already...

"Hey, did you hear? Trey and Wouter are sailing together at Texel!!!"

Wouter this is not possible because the rudders will not fit in the AHPC housing. The housing of AHPC is to narrow. But we are working on a carbon housing from our workshop, the plan is to have it ready mid 2007 .

Regards,
Hans

We are going to sail Texel this year too.

And we could sail together in 2008 ;-)
Mark your calendar!

Next year I'll be probaly without Beat Käsi, as he will be away for a year or so.