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Tradewinds #96221
01/15/07 11:03 AM
01/15/07 11:03 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
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fin. Offline OP
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Founder's Park, Islamorada Florida is Catamaran heaven! I do not see how any other place on the globe could be better!

Too much wind for me though. The starting area was pretty crowded with 65 boats and that kept me very nervous. I'm still amazed at how quickly this boat accelerates!

I had Jerry Wolfe aboard and we managed to gain some degree of team work very quickly. He had not sailed with spin before but proved to be a quick learner with lots of initiative. We still capsized under spinnaker during the first race, NOT the crews fault, and had to go to the beach for adjustments and repairs. They proved to be ineffective, because the spin bridle let go in the third race and we were dnf. That was the second time I've broken a spin bridle, if any one has an idea for a cure, I'm all ears!

One of the bright spots was watching Ollie and Kelly Jason (I think )execute a spinnaker jib. It was perfection! And Jerry and I were able to make use of the lesson right away. Of course this happened just after they lapped us! There are some very, very good sailors on the F18s, particularly on the Capricorns!

Sunday we rigged up under blustery wind and rain. We started the first race, made it to the weather mark in good time and had a good spinnaker run. But when I got to the bottom of the course, I was totally disoriented, had no idea where the weather mark was and just decided to pack it in.

By the time I got the boat rigged down, with Jerry's help, and had a hot shower, the sun was shinning and all was right with the world! I'd do it again tomorrow!

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Re: Tradewinds [Re: fin.] #96222
01/15/07 11:17 AM
01/15/07 11:17 AM
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St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline
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I did terrible and prefer not to post about it. Too much [censored] broke and I was not very happy. Extremely disappointed in my performance and the overall boat readiness.

Re: Tradewinds [Re: Robi] #96223
01/15/07 11:21 AM
01/15/07 11:21 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
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fin. Offline OP
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Quote
I did terrible and prefer not to post about it. Too much [censored] broke and I was not very happy. Extremely disappointed in my performance and the overall boat readiness.


Well, maybe you could write a review of the "Fish House" restaurant and "ghetto" tail gate party. It was a good weekend! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Don't forget to mention Trey's "dagger board" buffet!

Last edited by Tikipete; 01/15/07 11:24 AM.
Re: Tradewinds *DELETED* [Re: fin.] #96224
01/15/07 11:36 AM
01/15/07 11:36 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
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Orlando, FL
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Last edited by tback; 01/15/07 11:40 AM.

USA 777
Re: Tradewinds [Re: fin.] #96225
01/15/07 11:38 AM
01/15/07 11:38 AM
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Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Quote

That was the second time I've broken a spin bridle, if any one has an idea for a cure, I'm all ears!


I'm interested in the broken bridle. I haven't broken one yet but did have one come unknotted in a 3/4 pitchpole. Where is yours breaking? Is this happening under sail or during the wrecks?
I think this forum can be useful at times in helping us determine where the weak points are. Plane wrecks are analyzed to improve other aircraft. I take some solace in knowing that most others are getting water in the mast. As a group we hopefully can resolve that.
Once Robi settles down, I hope he will help us out with details about the lack of preparation. So that others can learn.
Besides, I have 4 more months till I uncover the boat.

Re: Tradewinds [Re: tback] #96226
01/15/07 11:45 AM
01/15/07 11:45 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
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<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Good shot T!

Re: Tradewinds [Re: bobcat] #96227
01/15/07 11:58 AM
01/15/07 11:58 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
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fin. Offline OP
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Quote
Quote

That was the second time I've broken a spin bridle, if any one has an idea for a cure, I'm all ears!

I'm interested in the broken bridle. I haven't broken one yet but did have one come unknotted in a 3/4 pitchpole. Where is yours breaking? Is this happening under sail or during the wrecks?
I think this forum can be useful at times in helping us determine where the weak points are. Plane wrecks are analyzed to improve other aircraft. I take some solace in knowing that most others are getting water in the mast. As a group we hopefully can resolve that.
Once Robi settles down, I hope he will help us out with details about the lack of preparation. So that others can learn.
Besides, I have 4 more months till I uncover the boat.



I broke the first bridle during a crash, and now that you ask, I think the second was just bad maintenance on my part. It appeared the knot just came undone. Can't blame that one on the crew!

One thing that was definetly my fault: On Saturday morning I noticed the pelican striker was bent, badly! Apparently, the rig needs to be much tighter when sailing with the jib! And, I may not have had equal tension on the bridles that attach at the pelican striker.

So, at this point, I would say the cure to much of the breakage is attention to detail BEFORE leaving the beach, duh. And keeping the boat moving on the water. The more boat speed, the less pounding the boat takes from gusts.

In the end it has to be noted that conditions were rough. Under those conditions, things break! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Re: Tradewinds [Re: fin.] #96228
01/15/07 12:40 PM
01/15/07 12:40 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
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Quote

Don't forget to mention Trey's "dagger board" buffet!


Key Lime pie in restaraunt: $30
Key Lime pie for take out : $15
Trey eating Key Lime Pie : Priceless
off his daggerboard

[Linked Image]

Attached Files
Last edited by tback; 01/15/07 12:43 PM.
Terry . This you ? [Re: tback] #96229
01/15/07 02:17 PM
01/15/07 02:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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[Linked Image]


Are you sailing with the rudders turned this far all the time on the upwind ?

If so then rake your mast further forward and go faster.

wouter

Attached Files
96594-DSC_2122M.jpg (514 downloads)
Last edited by Wouter; 01/15/07 02:19 PM.
Re: Tradewinds [Re: fin.] #96230
01/15/07 06:12 PM
01/15/07 06:12 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
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As far as bridles go-
I rigged it different on my 6.0 but now that I have a boat that has a spin pole that is like the poles on the f16 (where you wrap the bridle around the pole then tie it) I need to come up with something different. Why not have a well tied loop around the tip of the spin pole then have the bridle lines made of spectra with eye splices at the precise length they would be with the pole properly tensioned? you could use small shackles to attach then to the loop on the spin pole. You could even just use one shackle to attach both bridle lines to the loop. It can be difficult getting the length right but this would elimate the knot issue, have non stretch bridle lines, and actually make set up a little easier. If you haven't learned how to eye splice spectra yet... it is so damn easy you will wonder why you haven't done it before and you will find yourself doing it everywhere else possible.
I could be way off of course, but thought I would throw that out there.

Re: Terry . This you ? [Re: Wouter] #96231
01/15/07 09:18 PM
01/15/07 09:18 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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Quote



Are you sailing with the rudders turned this far all the time on the upwind ?

If so then rake your mast further forward and go faster.

wouter


Yes that is me and what you see happened frequently on every port tack. About every 75 m ... cavitation! I'd have to sheet out and jostle the tiller to relieve the rudder of the cavitation. Felt like I had the "emergency brake" on <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Mast rake was at the center of the aft inspection port (the other F16 sloops were just below the upper gudgeon ... thus I thought I was raked forward sufficiently. I didn't want to get too vertical else risk getting too powered up as well as my ability to point.

Last edited by tback; 01/15/07 09:20 PM.

USA 777
Tradewinds Report [Re: tback] #96232
01/15/07 09:24 PM
01/15/07 09:24 PM
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Orlando, FL
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My feedback from Tradewinds.

As the name implies, TRADEWINDS, were just that. Weather forecast was for 20+ knots on Thursday and Friday with "slightly" subsiding winds for Saturday and Sunday.

As you probably read on the OPEN Forum, one of the F18 guys bent a mast on the sail to Founder's Park on Thursday (they ended up sailing Wave's)

Winds were up on Saturday and Rick ran 3 races SABCACACF.

I sailed uni, the only uni sailor flying a chute (until Robi gave his crew all she could handle <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

I had good starts on each race, my goal going in was to be more aggressive at the line (mission accomplished); although Robi had one killer start ... can't remember which race, but he hit the line with SPEED and was off to the races!

I simply couldn't point Easily 5-10 degrees lower than every other F16. Certainly makes for a L O O O N G race course.

Race 1: Given that I was sailing the "long course", I didn't mix it up much with anyone .... so my goal was to stay upright in the puffy gusts. I sailed really low going down wind .... not bad, given that I rounded the A mark with the F18 (or they rounded me) on one leg and was about 200 m from C mark when they rounded it.

One thing that was very noticable was significant weather helm, especially on port tack. Going to weather I would stall the rudders frequently, having to sheet out and jostle the tiller extension to remove cavitation loading from the rudder. It really felt like I had the brakes on those tacks. Note: mast rake was at the center of the aft inspection portal.

Race 2: I capsized in a puff under spi', righted quckly and continued sailing finishing just as the start sequence was beginning for the F18. Not much time to rest. Basically grabbed a swallow of GatorAide and back into the start sequence for the next race.

Race 3: Last rounding A mark and did something stupid. I noticed all the F16's ahead were sailing high of B. If I went right for the mark I was almost sailing far enough off the wind to fly the chute. Okay, what have I got to lose, out goes the chute ... head up towards B mark and over I went! Okay, won't do that again!! Righted the boat and retired.

Anyway, nice to be first to the beach and watch everyone else come in. This is a good way to get prime parking <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Day 1 notes:

Matt and Gina probably did best of all boats to weather. And of course around the rest of the course too!

Seth and Stephan can really make that Taipan accelerate! Wow, they were just fast!

THE Chuck and Mavis ... well he's THE Chuck and she's a great crew.

It would have been nice to see Tom mix it up because he looked fast too. He had rudder problems, and although, he retrieved a spare rudder the housing where the pintel goes was sufficiently expanded that prevented him from racing on Sunday.


Sunday the winds were supposed to be 10-12. NOT! The moring started off with rain with the first race run mostly in the rain with 15-20 knot winds and more gusty than Saturday. Three more SABCACACF.

Robi started uni and raced the first race ...we had some dueling but he was pointing better and much faster than me ....

The line was considerably smaller as Tom had left, Robi and Pete had failures and retired, THE Chuck was 3 minutes late to start after hitting the beach for repairs (he won that race!!).

All and all, it was a great venue, good weather and an all around fun time!

Thanks Rick, Mary, Barbara and all the race volunteers.


USA 777
Re: Tradewinds Report [Re: tback] #96233
01/15/07 09:43 PM
01/15/07 09:43 PM
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Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Thanks!
Great report.

Re: Terry . This you ? [Re: tback] #96234
01/15/07 11:05 PM
01/15/07 11:05 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,037
Central California
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Terry,

Dunno if this snapshot captures an accurate glimpse of your trim because I realize you're changing it constantly. But FWIW, I would be running a lot less mast rotation to weather in those conditions (mast track aimed at the end of the rear beam) as well as full/tight outhaul (making foot almost flat) and cranked cunningham/downhaul. I may travel out just a tad and then sheet hard, making the sail extremely flat.

Since the helm problem seems to be on only one tack, you might check on your diamond and shroud tensions (symmetric).

I also has a similar problem once and found I had bent the rudder cross bar making it shorter and toeing in the rudders; the problem was on both tacks, though.

Sounds like a great event--thanks for the report


Eric Poulsen
A-class USA 203
Ultimate 20
Central California
Long post ahead. [Re: ejpoulsen] #96235
01/16/07 12:33 AM
01/16/07 12:33 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
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I am going to try to report so here goes:
I arrived at the keys Thursday around noonish local time. After around an hour of chatting and mingling with a good amount of F18 sailors, I noticed a boat coming to shore. It was a Nacra F18 with a broken mast. They broke their mast just above the hounds. Winds were gustier on Thursday than any other day. They informed that the mast already was kinked from prior racing.

Friday the winds were still very gusty, very early in the day. I arrived at Founders Park around 10am. No one was there yet. I parked my boat and went for a bite to eat. Once I returned there were a few boats already there and starting to get setup. I was all setup by 3pm. At 330pm EST I went out for a test sail. On our way out to the bay, two trapeze wire swedges gave way and my crew went swimming. This was totally my fault for either using wrong swedges (they were stainless steal, I figured stainless steal on stainless steal is not good enough and does not hold) or not swedging them good enough. I had shortened them by six inches each. In my opinion, my trapeze wires were too long from the factory. The swedges I did slipped causing my crew to fall overboard. She fell once on SB and the other on Port tacks. OK so now two trapeze wires are down. I decided to call it an afternoon and went back to the beach. I hustled and bustled to get them repaired at the local marine/boat shop.

Saturday morning I got to the boat, to install my repaired trapeze wires. I had to cut another two to three inches off the already shorter trap wires, making them even shorter. After going out and starting the first race, my crew went swimming again. This time the line had chaffed against the trapeze eye causing a week point and splash again for my crew. She was separated and The Chuck picked her up out of the water.

On our downwind leg on port tack heading towards the C mark, we had a VIOLENT pitch pole. We were smacked really badly by a huge puff causing me to crash against my crew pinning her against the side stay wire. We stuffed the bows and over we went. It was so violent I barely remember it, all I remember is seeing her face in pain and her screams. I was seriously concerned for her. Therefore, what I did was tell her to hold on to me and forget about the boat. We sat in the water for a good three to four minutes. I had to make sure she was not seriously injured. After she felt a little better, I started to do my thing to right the boat. Once I righted the boat off we went to finish the race. To make matters worst, I finished the race, no gun went off, and no one was paying attention. I was so far behind the RC assumed I had called it quits. I had to inform them I was not throwing out that race. It was the ONE and ONLY race I finished.

After we finished our first and only race, I notice my crew was not doing so well. I asked if she wanted me to go drop her off the beach. She felt kind of pressured and said no. I noticed she was not feeling too good, so I said, no way! And that I was going to drop her off at the beach. She had/has a good-sized bruise behind her right leg and could barely move it.

After I dropped her off, I made it back out to the racecourse and waited a few minutes for the third start. I started ok and completed the first triangle. SABC after rounding C and heading upwind, my trap broke. Remember the chaffing I was talking about? Well I went swimming this time. I had the mainsheet, but I was pulled so hard that I hurt my wrist good. The mainsheet somehow got wrapped around my arm when going over and the boat gave me a good squeeze. After I righted the boat and finally started to feel the pain in the wrist I decided ok, enough is enough and returned to shore.

Sunday morning I installed some micro blocks to avoid chaffing and removed the excess trapeze wires. I went out solo. The winds were still as strong as Saturday. The puffs were still there. The first race I had an awesome start. I noticed the McDonalds and Terry heading towards the line. I headed off and got a good position under Terry. I was starting to luff him on the line, when I noticed I had a lot of boat speed. If I maintained my course, I was going to be over early. Therefore, I found a hole further down the line so I started heading down. This caused me to gain good speed, once I heard the gun go off, I was sure I was the first over the line for that race. Everything was feeling good. Boat trim was good, rudders felt great. I was feeling good. I held on to my position for a good amount of time. Half way down to A mark, Seth passed me to Windward, as if I was standing still. WOW can he make that taipan move. By then I new the McDonalds were already in front. I was in third place, with Seth and McDonalds in front. I still had The Chuck, Terry and Pete behind, but hot on my heels. UNTIL I TACKED! Remember the shortened trap lines? Well when I was getting ready to tack, I could NOT reach my handle. I thought to myself, great. NOW WHAT! I had to let go of something, but what? The mainsheet or the TILLER! Which one is worst? All I could remember was Rick White yelling at me over the bullhorn as of why I did not have the mainsheet in my hand, and well I cannot really let go of the tiller! Therefore, I cleated the mainsheet and threw line onto the tramp. Not the best decision, but I could not do anything else. Once I tried to get onto the boat, I lost my footing, remember I am trapping extremely low now. I was in the water and I thought I was going to bring the boat over. I lost all my speed and heading. By then Chuck already passed me. Terry was sailing too low so I still had some room with him. Pete I thought had already called it quits, not sure. After I managed to dime tack, I started making way again. By then Terry was right on me, he was probably only 10 yards behind. After rounding A we both started reaching. I had good speed, but was sailing a bit higher. I was reeling in The Chuck and Terry was hot on my heels. After rounding B Mark we both hoisted our spinnakers and headed towards C mark. We traded gibes with no more than 10 yards between us. At one point Terry had passed me. I was in front of Terry at the C mark; we started doing our upwind sailing. He was sailing lower I was pinching darn well. I had good boat speed, but not enough to catch the sloops by now. My main concern was not to flip. After rounding A mark I hoisted the spinnaker and I am trucking along darn good, until a huge puff hit me and over I went. I was holding onto the rear beam and I fell on top of the main. ¾ of the mainsail popped out of the mast track and when I went to retrieve the spinnaker, my snuffer hoop shattered into two pieces. That was the end of it for me. I headed back to the beach early.

What I learned about this Tradewinds event?
NEVER EVER do too much to your boat without prior sailing testing. I did not have a chance to test the boat before going down to this event. I changed the traps, downhaul, mast rotation controls and some other stuff. Practice practice practice. It has been close to a month and half since I last sailed my boat. It felt like I was on the boat again for the first time. Don’t know why, but that is how I felt. “Prior Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance”

Questions? Feel free to ask.

Re: Terry . This you ? [Re: ejpoulsen] #96236
01/16/07 01:54 AM
01/16/07 01:54 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 465
Oxford, UK
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Terry,

I notice you've got the traveller dropped a good few inches. This should be the last thing to go when you're trying to trying to depower. Get everything else pulled in like Eric suggests, especially the downhaul - go mad on that.

Sailing unirig, you should be able to out-point the sloops (although you won't go faster in that weather). Judging an entire weekend's sailing by a one photos is obviously totally unfair, but it looks/sounds like you've depowered to the point that you're close reaching up the the course in order to get boat speed.

Nothing like unsolicited advice, eh? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Paul

Re: Terry . This you ? [Re: tback] #96237
01/16/07 02:33 AM
01/16/07 02:33 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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I have a sail of the same sailmaker and I'm sailing with an almost straight mast when cat rigged. If I don't do that then I get what you have. Other things to tune are traveller and the foot of the mainsail. Both seem to aggrevate this behaviour when set wrong.

Otherwise your rudders are mistaligned.

Don't compare your settings to sloop as both can be rather different.

I went down the same road with my redhead mainsail and now it sails much better without throwing up roostertails. Roosters tails are very draggy and can really hold you back. Everything and anything that adds drag to the boat when in cat rigged mode will kill speed especially upwind. Here being low drag is key when sailing an F16.

I've just finished a hole year of singlehanding my F16 in the races.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 01/16/07 02:36 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Terry . This you ? [Re: pdwarren] #96238
01/16/07 07:23 AM
01/16/07 07:23 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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Quote


Nothing like unsolicited advice, eh? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



Bring it on! Eager to learn and improve.


USA 777
Re: Terry . This you ? [Re: Wouter] #96239
01/16/07 07:28 AM
01/16/07 07:28 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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Quote

I have a sail of the same sailmaker and I'm sailing with an almost straight mast when cat rigged. If I don't do that then I get what you have. Other things to tune are traveller and the foot of the mainsail. Both seem to aggrevate this behaviour when set wrong.


Ironically, on Friday I set my mast rake fairly straight ... went out for a sail and had neutral (to leeward) weather helm. When I hit the beach I raked back (primarily to de-power the boat as I thought the winds were going to be too high for me as a uni). I guess I should have left the settings as the drag on the rudders certainly de-powered me <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> to the point of being frustrating!

Thanks for the advice....a picture certainly is worth 1k words.


USA 777
Re: Long post ahead. [Re: Robi] #96240
01/16/07 07:52 AM
01/16/07 07:52 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
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fin. Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
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Quote
. . .hot on my heels. UNTIL I TACKED!


Great effort getting back aboard! I didn't think you were gonna make it.

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