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Polar Diagrams for beach catamarans?
by TexasTuma. 07/01/25 04:16 PM
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Re: Tradewinds [Re: Timbo] #96261
01/17/07 06:30 PM
01/17/07 06:30 PM
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Others have mentioned it, but the guy who was supposed to make good rudder systems delivered what I think to be absolute junk. VWM was as much on the receiving end as the customers were. The European builder was send the same stuff and yes even I broke one setup while test sailing the EU Blade prototype (not my boat) for the first time.

I had warmly recommended this setup to this builder based on my own experiences with the AHPC version. After the breakages I looked more closely at the setup and the design had some major dumb%^@ features. Funny enough the set of "pilot" rudders on which further orders were based is still reported to be excellent and going strong. I have serious trouble surpressing the idea that we have been scammed. First set immaculate and the next 10 sets all junk ? What are the odds ?

But enough of that. Vectorworks Marine got busy immediately when this was discovered and came up with a much better setup then these initial ones.

Still the basic concept of the rod system is sound. I'm one of those guys that goes out through the surf and comes back again through it each time I go for a sail. I do sail of a sandy beach that is true, but most of the time I'm approaching the waterline at 2 m/s to 4 m/s and have to run it up the beach as I'm singlehanding now 90 % of time and the next breaker is getting close.

There is a trick to traversing the surf with these rudders and it works rather well. More about this later first the questions.

Quote

Wouter, I thought VWM (US Blades) are using the same rudders as in the pictures? Are they not from AHPC too?


No they are not. Pictures = AHPC and catamaranparts. The others were ...... (see other posts)


Quote

I thought the US buyers were doing the up-down string mods themselves.


Some did, but correct me if I'm wrong Matt the string systems were developped by VWM as a working alternative to the not working setups.


Quote

The only drawback to this system vs. a Hobie or Nacra type system is you must go down to the low side rudder to lift the rod/rudder unless you just want to run the rudder aground to have it kick up.


This is not really the case. See end of this post. It is actually the Hobie and Nacra system that are at a disadvantage. And I say that after having completed my 10th season sailing beach cats through the surf.


Quote

It's not a big deal on a lake but if you are in the ocean, coming to shore with the wind behind you in surf, well, you don't want to go down to the low side to raise the rudder or you will risk a wipe out in the surf. In that case, I would just let it hit bottom and kick up...as long as the bottom is sand, not rocks!


And this is exactly where this setup is at an advantage.


With this rod system your rudders stay down even with the locking rod disengaged. You achieve this by tightening the retaining bolt that holds the rudder in the stock a little. This presses the sides of the stock to the rudder cheeks just a little. When steering the pressure on the rudderblade presses the cheecks even harder agains the stocks and keeps the rudder in the stock. But when the rudders are straight and the tip ever so lightly touches bottom then the rudders will unjam and swing up immediately. In effect you have an extremely light kick-up trigger but one that doesn't kick-up when loading up the rudder while steering. Thus you got full control in the big wild surf and you still don't damage your rudders when beaching.

So what I (singlehanding) do when there is a big surf through which I need to come in is park the boat just outside of the surf and the preceding steep waves. I look over the surf and the beach and windshifts to decide were I want to end up. Then I take my daggerboard out completely on the final leeward side. I also raise my final luff daggerboard a little so I know it is not jammed and that I easily raise it out completely with one hand. I throw the tiller extension out over the back and with still head to wind I disengage the rudder locking down rod on the eventual leeward side and through it in the water over the rudder head. I leave the rudder slightly jammed in its stock. By the way, I set this jamming 2 years ago and never adjusted it since, I did however catch 4 anchor/bouy chains with it in that time and the rudders did kick up nicely without and damage so the kick-up mechanisme is not jammed up tight. Then I go the future luff rudder and just disengage the rod. I don't throw it back in water over the rudder head this time. Later I will pull on this rod to kick-out the rudder.

So now I'm ready to go in ! I choose my waves and I'm careful not to speed up to much (could kick out the rudders) so I stay between two waves and ride them to shore. After I have traversed the line of the largest breakers and arrive in relatively calmer water I give a jank on the rod and the luff rudder comes up (it floats). The leeward rudders is still down and I have very good control even if the luff hull is lifted. I then spot the place where the water depth is such that my leeward rudder will touch (not hit) bottom. When I get there I help by slowing down and keep my rudders straight. The leeward rudder then unjams very easily and I don't even feel it so I look if it is up yet and floating to the surface. I know now that the water is only 0.50 mtr deep (less then 2 feet) and I grab my luff daggerboard and pull it out completely. If I have time I may drag my feed in the water trying to slow down as much as possible. Then my keels touch bottom and I jump off uncleating all my sails and travellers and I run to the bows and pull the boat forward while turning it head to wind at the same time. The rudders will then track nicely behind the boat.

Now trying doing this with hobie rudders. These are either engaged and balanced or disengaged and unbalanced making steering through the surf sluggish and heavy. Sailing them onto the beach engaged requires some force to kick them out. Going down to lee to disengage them while sailing through the surf is dangerous as you easily can loose control here. I disenage my rudders while I'm parked head to wind and when I'm in full control. I do nothing else in the surf but sit on the luff hull, steer and sheet my mainsail. With my rudders still down I can completely take out my leeward daggerboard and even alot of luff daggerbaord. Afterall my rudders are still balanced and so I don't suffer much from weatherhelm at all. In effect I only have to let go of the tiller and sheet at the very last moment (0.5 mtr dept) to pull the last bit of luff board out. By that time the danger is largely gone.


Getting out through the surf is also better because I can again use the slight jamming of the rudder in the stock to good effect.

When I get out I either leaving my lee rudder up or have it drag behind the boat. It dependents on the conditions which one I choose for the day. The locking rod for the luff rudder is hanging over the tiller. I get out and make speed and keep it. I set a little bit of daggerbaord as soon I feel that I have more the 0.5 mtr water under my keels. Even 0.10-0.15 mtr of daggerbaord makes a large difference. When I feel I need more steerage I pull the rudder up by the rod and then quickly push it down. Its weight and momentum will swing it down and jam it a little in the stock. I can steer very well and I'm not fiddling with the rudder to make it engage (lock) (Prindle's ?). Sometimes the tip hits the second sandbank and the rudder just pops up very easily. Once I'm over it and feel that I have dept again I pull it up and quickly jank it down. I repeat this till I'm through the surf then I seek a nice spot and park the boat head to wind. Then I engage both rudders fully by setting the lock rod and then I put my daggerboards fully down. And ready I am to go have a good time.

I've done this on quite a few other boats with different systems and while the Hobie system is nice I now prefer this locking rod setup. Mostly because the tiller is always firm as it is not part of the locking mechanism and because the rod system allows you develop new technique for crossing the surf and I found these to be better and more comfortable.

The AHPC setup I have is also very stiff giving precise steerage and hitting the crossbar won't result in kick-ups or lock-downs.

An added benefit is that the rods a springy by design. So when I hit a jelly fish (many in august) I feel a small jolt through the boat and I see the rod bend , acting as shock breaker, and the rudder move back and forward again. If for some reason it doesn't move all the way forward I just press down on the rod push out the residual bend and the rudder is tucked fully under again.

Also this system simply won't wear out (when using stainless steel locking plate) I retuned it ones two seasons ago and I'm still sailing like that. No nacra style slipping lines, no hobie style cam problems and Prindle style dirt/salt problems.

And of course it is the lightest ruddersetup available, there is hardly anything there !

My board was 1080 grams and my stock was 478 grams. For an F16 weight is important.


I hope this helps

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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Re: Tradewinds [Re: Wouter] #96262
01/17/07 10:03 PM
01/17/07 10:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,121
Eastern NC, USA
T
tshan Offline
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Eastern NC, USA
I want to make it abundantly clear that I am not bitching about anything about the boat as a whole or the job VM does. I even said it may be my own set up of the system, some credence to that since the other Blade owner's have not had this problem, eh.

Given the opportunity to buy a boat now, I'd be lining up one of the Alter Cup boats. Most fun I've had sailing in a while.

I've never dealt with a more open-minded, easy to reach dealer/builder - always available for advice, tuning tips, etc.


Tom
Re: Tradewinds [Re: tshan] #96263
01/18/07 08:59 AM
01/18/07 08:59 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
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MauganN20 Offline
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Quote
yes, you'll have to give yourself a little bit of time to figure out how to operate it. Once you do however you'll not want to go back to any nacra or hobie system.


Oh please

The only drawback to the nacra system is the springs wear out. Big woop.

I used the rods one day on a marstrom tornado and it was horrrrible trying to get that stuff to lock down.

Re: Tradewinds [Re: MauganN20] #96264
01/18/07 10:52 AM
01/18/07 10:52 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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Marstrøms Tornado system dont resemble the AHPC rod system at all. If it was the stock Marstrøm rudders, they are a lot more complicated and need tuning by someone who understand how they should be set up before they work well.

Re: Tradewinds [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #96265
01/18/07 12:50 PM
01/18/07 12:50 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
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MauganN20 Offline
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well the guy who owned the boat makes carbon tornados. I think he knows what he's doing <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: Tradewinds [Re: MauganN20] #96266
01/18/07 01:13 PM
01/18/07 01:13 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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Yes, but you seem unable to discern between a Marstrøm rudder setup and an AHPC rudder setup. The latter being discussed here and which you jugded was crap based on your experience with a totally different Marstrøm setup.

Re: Tradewinds [Re: MauganN20] #96267
01/18/07 06:20 PM
01/18/07 06:20 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
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fin. Offline OP
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Quote
Quote
yes, you'll have to give yourself a little bit of time to figure out how to operate it. Once you do however you'll not want to go back to any nacra or hobie system.


Oh please

The only drawback to the nacra system is the springs wear out. Big woop.

I used the rods one day on a marstrom tornado and it was horrrrible trying to get that stuff to lock down.


If you want to talk ABOUT F16s, you should BUY an F16. Or are you too skered! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Re: Tradewinds [Re: fin.] #96268
01/18/07 06:46 PM
01/18/07 06:46 PM
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Posts: 3,114
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MauganN20 Offline
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If you want to talk ABOUT F16s, you should BUY an F16. Or are you too skered!


I have no interest in the F16 class other than a source of amusement. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And if I were to acquire a 16' cat, it would be a H16 or I'd build one myself.

Attached Files
Re: Tradewinds [Re: MauganN20] #96269
01/18/07 07:09 PM
01/18/07 07:09 PM
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fin. Offline OP
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Quote
Quote
If you want to talk ABOUT F16s, you should BUY an F16. Or are you too skered!


I have no interest in the F16 class other than a source of amusement. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And if I were to acquire a 16' cat, it would be a H16 or I'd build one myself.


Naw, ur a'skered! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Re: Tradewinds [Re: fin.] #96270
01/18/07 09:33 PM
01/18/07 09:33 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
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MauganN20 Offline
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Quote
Quote
Quote
If you want to talk ABOUT F16s, you should BUY an F16. Or are you too skered!


I have no interest in the F16 class other than a source of amusement. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And if I were to acquire a 16' cat, it would be a H16 or I'd build one myself.


Naw, ur a'skered! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


If it helps you sleep at night thinking that <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(and just so you know, when I say, "source of amusement" I meant "reading wouter's posts". I wish Sam would come back!)

Re: Tradewinds [Re: MauganN20] #96271
01/18/07 09:39 PM
01/18/07 09:39 PM
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fin. Offline OP
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Jeez, ur no fun.

Re: Tradewinds [Re: fin.] #96272
01/18/07 10:01 PM
01/18/07 10:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Charleston, SC
NCSUtrey Offline
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NCSUtrey  Offline
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Skeered? Who didn't sail very many races at TW because there WAS wind? I rest my case there....


Trey
Re: Tradewinds [Re: MauganN20] #96273
01/19/07 12:56 AM
01/19/07 12:56 AM
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Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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If you want to participate or discuss something productive, great! If you just want to cheer for the sorry sod with his hate campaign and spread discord, you can find somewhere else to do it.

Re: Tradewinds [Re: NCSUtrey] #96274
01/19/07 06:36 AM
01/19/07 06:36 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
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fin. Offline OP
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Quote
Skeered? Who didn't sail very many races at TW because there WAS wind? I rest my case there....


It was and is a joke! Further, I don't explain myself to people less than half my age. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> If I were truly questioning his courage, I would have used that word.

On a serious note, I suspect you have never been in a truly fearful situation. I hope you never are.

Re: Tradewinds [Re: fin.] #96275
01/19/07 08:36 AM
01/19/07 08:36 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Ahh come on guys.

Lets understand their point of view.

Trey and Maugan are just pissed off that N20's didn't make class while the F16's did.

They have to cope with being part of a dying class, holding on valiantly against all odds, while we all have the luxury of feeling part of a class that is on track towards great succes.

Not that I'm amused by that or anything ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 01/19/07 08:38 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Tradewinds [Re: Wouter] #96276
01/19/07 08:40 AM
01/19/07 08:40 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
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fin. Offline OP
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fin.  Offline OP
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I guess the "skeered" part set them off. I apologize. I talk it all back! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

[color:"green"] [/color] ENVY [color:"green"] [/color] is by far a more appropriate word.

Here a better picture of catamaranparts rudder [Re: Wouter] #96277
01/19/07 08:45 AM
01/19/07 08:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Here a better picture of the www.catamaranparts.nl rudder setup.

[Linked Image]

The comments from the blade owners I questioned about it is that its a very good profile.


Wouter

Attached Files
Last edited by Wouter; 01/19/07 08:47 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Here a better picture of catamaranparts rudder [Re: Wouter] #96278
01/19/07 09:11 AM
01/19/07 09:11 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline OP
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Quote

Here a better picture of the www.catamaranparts.nl rudder setup.

[Linked Image]

The comments from the blade owners I questioned about it is that its a very good profile.


Wouter


Any idea how much?

Re: Here a better picture of catamaranparts rudder [Re: fin.] #96279
01/19/07 09:35 AM
01/19/07 09:35 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 465
Oxford, UK
pdwarren Offline
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pdwarren  Offline
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Oxford, UK
Quote

Any idea how much?


Mine came with the boat, so I don't know the individual price. Get in touch with Hans on this forum, or email [email][email protected].[/email] It sounds like Matt might be able to supply them to you direct in the US.

Paul

Re: Here a better picture of catamaranparts rudder [Re: pdwarren] #96280
01/19/07 10:10 AM
01/19/07 10:10 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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tback  Offline
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Orlando, FL
I'm pretty sure I've seen those at VectorWorks Marine's shop.


USA 777
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