Really? Then I guess we would have to go through that area really FAST!!

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mary, you should make use of the Holtzman Effect and fold space to get to China.

"If the world was indeed flat the measured angle to any star would remain the same no matter where you were on the flat world. Because the globe is actually round the measured angle to any star changes as you move towards or away from it. For example the angle to the north star gets smaller (in relation to Horizontal) as you go further south. This would not happen on a flat world. This is just basic geometry stuff."

Hang about a minute, if you have a “relatively” fixed point in space, such as a star, and the angle to it is measured between a point on a flat plane (the earth if it was flat) and that star, then, if the point of measurement on the flat plane is shifted, then the angle measured to that star WILL be different.
Any way, sailers only needed to “navigate” across the seas centuries ago because they couldn’t afford the tickets to fly with Quantas.?

And if the world was in fact a giant pancake, my kids would have eaten it by now. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

To quote Martin Luther when referring to Copernicus “People give ear to an upstart astrologer who strove to show that the earth revolves, not the heavens and the firmament, the sun and the moon. This fool wishes to reverse the entire scheme of astrology. The sacred scripture tells us that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still not the earth”.

In fact several astronomers where burned at the stake as heretics for claiming the earth revolved around the sun. And there was a ban on the notion until the early 1800’s. I'd venture to guess people were not nearly so open minded back then as they are today... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Quote
[In fact several astronomers where burned at the stake as heretics for claiming the earth revolved around the sun. And there was a ban on the notion until the early 1800’s. I'd venture to guess people were not nearly so open-minded back then as they are today...]

If you think that “we” today are an “enlightened” people, talk to a few “Christian fundamentalists” about the origins of the world and you may think that you ARE back in the “dark ages”,
For that matter try the practicing beliefs of fundamentalist Muslims and their interpretation of the Koran to see what “closed mindedness” also is,
If you want bigotry and bias then check out the “Arian nations”
For true “enlightenment” how about the “teachings” of George W Bush??
The KKK?
etc, etc.
The list goes on and on and ----

Prime minister John Howard ?

Wouter

Careful Wouter, some unkind person may add your name (or mine for that matter)
To be considered "reasonable, un biased, open minded, non bigeted, fair etc" is generally a personal point of view any way, and depends on which side of the fence you sit at the time. My "Terrorists" are some one elses "patriots" and vice versa, history is always written by the victor.

One group thinks their diety can walk on water. The other believes horses can fly.

But we all know exactly who the realists are, mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Frisbeetarians?

there is a great book called "Cod" which describes cod fishing and its imporance to 1000-1400 AD Europe..
It it it suggests the Basques knew about the east coast of America. Since this is the area of the great Cod grounds... Basques never told about the western lands as that would allow other fishermen to plunder the basque cash cow!!

Actually it was Wouters ancestors and the rest of Europe that thought the World was flat. The Pollies had been sailing the far reaches of the Pacific for centuries when the Anglo-Saxons finally got brave enough to sail out of sight of land.

Cooks notes suggested he thought the Tahitian catamarans capable of 20 knots! He said they were impossible to out run or out manouver....
Oh and we all like catamarans....and who created them???????
Tahiti when discovered by the French had 24 hour lighthouses and over 350 of what the French desciribed as large Ships.

The eating each other comment is just amazing as Europe has a long history of Cannibalism including families who killed lone travellers and butchered them and sold the meat to other travellers. The Crusaders did their best to barbeque and eat a whole city. Christians that they were.

Ignorance often opens peoples mouths wide and they need to to get their feet in.

One of my cats is Named Galileo in thanks to his leaving the nonesence of the church back in the Dark ages......and it was called the DARK ages because of what the church insisted on people. Thank God for the age of enlightenment!

You are playing a little fast and loose with the facts here Warbird.



That would make them YOUR ancestors as well Warbird unless you are Maori. But lets not forget that the Greecks had already calculated the circumference of the earth quite accurately, subsequent European peoples developped a navigational system based on this knowlegde. The knowlegde that the earth was round was only suppressed in midevil times and the early renaissance. Suppressing is the right word here as the Church never succeeded at eradicating this knowlegde, although it did manage to have it made a closely guarded guild secret of maritime navigators.




Anglo-Saxons have a big mouth and claim far more then they actually achieved. The first explorers were the Portugese followed closely by the Spanish. Then came the Dutch (who discovered large swaths of south east asia and Oceania. Hence the names like Tasmania (Van Diemens land), Arnhem land in Australia and even the name New Zealand itself (after first being called Staten Landt and then Nieuw Zeeland).

For more read this short article : http://history-nz.org/discovery1.html

The Brits and French joined the party later often still using many Dutch maps.

I can't name a single land that was discovered by the English. And if they did then it will be nothing more then an atol or small island (Cook, polynesia). The only exception here being the eastern seaboard of the United states, but its existance had already been established by Spanish navigators who largely ignored it from then onward because they didn't see any commericial benefits to do so. Even then large parts of North America were French and Dutch "discoveries". hence the names New Orleans, Louisiana, Illinois and Staten Island (remember Staten Landt), Brooklyn (Breukelen), Harlem (Haarlem) and a score of Dutch town names in North West America. Florida was Spanish as were large portions of Califorina, Texas and the states in between.

What the Brits (Anglo-Saxons) were good at was to shoot their way into possesing new land (colonies), most of it discovered earlier by others. They were largely helped by local wars on the European mainland, especially the Napoleanic wars if I remember correctly. These weakened the other naval powers while leaving England largely unaffected.




This is new to me. This was very heavily disapproved off by the church, same as with selling your children. It may have happened but it was certainly no widespread culturally accepted phenomenon. It was actively punished.





The crusaders did massacre whole cities without a worry but I seriously doubt if they referred to cannibalism unless when faced with imminent starvation, which happened during the first crusade. It was never a BBQ kind of feasting of "doing their best" as you put it. This would have been surprising and most crusaders were extremely pious people, although they did reguard pagan peoples as sufficiently heretic to slaughter them by the thousants.




So you tell me.

Having spent 18 months helping to redevlop the Maori court and Pacific section of the Auckland Museum, the most important museum on the planet when it comes to the study of this subject I am really clear about the facts. I am Anglo-Saxon and have not trouble with that. I am well aware of Tasman etc and that they are well after the Polly seafaring explorers, hence my comments. What I do take seriously are what amount to racist commentary which mirrors that I listened to in that museum coming from people of European extraction who could just not stand the idea that that Pacific Islanders were well ahead of Europeans in exploring the area and who want forever to believe the Pacific peoples just got on rafts and crashed into islands in dumb luck.
I do not need to argue the pitch and toss here Wouter as I have not had to read these things as I have discussed them in some circumstances with the writers of the books and have made the very mounts some of the artifacts and boats sit on.

As to my comments on Cannibalism my reference is a book called "Flesh and Blood" but you could just google it and save me having to re read and quote pages. You guess that the Crusaders would not but your guess is wrong, so do your homework.

In this country people often remark disparagingly against Maori because of their eating of others. I always point out this book and lend it to them if needed.

Our history is clear that many English, Russian, German and American sailors found the temptation to eat human flesh the Maori offered at feasts too irresistable to say no to. They have chosen to do this after knowing better but Maori were just partaking in a long held cultural tradition.

Wouter, google Maara Crusades cannibalism

That should read cannibalism Maarra with 2 rs.
While it seems the adults were broiled the Crusaders put the babies and chil;dren on spits and bartbequed them.

You could read 'Consuming Passions" a book I think dedicated to Cannibalism in early modern Europe and "Cannibalism; a modern tabboo".

I would also remind you that the Catholic mass itself is a cannibal ritual where the people of the church are emplored to eat the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

I dont think Kiwi's where very proud of their history themselves, I went to highschool there for a year (near Whangarei) and dont remember a single history lesson.