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"instant justice in the sand" #97590
01/28/07 07:48 PM
01/28/07 07:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Annapolis, MD
Davi wrote this about the A class Midwinters on the Class Blog

Quote
Ian Storer filed the first protest in the event's seven year history, alleging that on the first leg of the last race of the day his "tiller extension hit" a boat to windward of him within two boat lengths of the windward mark and he "had to drop it". He requested redress as he "lost about 11 places, and finished 9 or 10 places" behind the boat he wanted to protest. A group of four other competitors was quickly assembled to act as "instant justice in the sand", including two who were in that race themselves. The instant jury did not give Ian redress. Instead, despite the fact that the jury said he did not properly hail the other boat, they disqualified the boat that Ian Storer said was the reason he dropped his tiller extension as he approached the mark.



Interisting issues raised here...

Is the game better or worse if you dispense with the rules and structure of a protest committe?

Why do regattas recruit a judge to chair their committe if we can just solve any dispute on the beach as above... or...by scheduling the protest meeting the third thursday following the regatta at three AM.

Is "instant justice in the sand"... back to the wild wild west of sailing? Nascar rules? Does it matter if the jury was in the race..

So... if you get DSQ for not doing your circle but were not properly hailed... were you screwed over... or were you pushing the rules and justice was served.

Davi seems quite please that the A Class culture does not look favorably on protests. Is this a good thing for a class? What other classes have this unspoken culture? What classes have the opposite culture ?.. E.G. willing to battle over the letter ... screw the spirit of the rule.

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 01/28/07 08:57 PM.
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: "instant justice in the sand" [Re: Mark Schneider] #97591
01/28/07 09:13 PM
01/28/07 09:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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Hi Mark -

You'd have to look at the class rules and the SIs for the event - for the Alter Cup's current structure, provisions were made for "beach justice" (a term I thought we'd coined <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />) which changed the standard RRS for time limits, etc. Beach Justice is neccessary in determining who is in the next heat at the Championship.

I am hoping, and working with the judges for the upcoming Alter Cup, to see a drastic reduction in the number of protests and requests for redress filed at the Championship - we have twice missed out on winning the St. Petersburg Trophy for Excellence in Race Management because of the number of protests filed. People need to stop trying to improve their position through litigation - maybe the A-Class has indeed taken steps to see a return to a higher level of sportsmanship.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: "instant justice in the sand" [Re: John Williams] #97592
01/28/07 09:32 PM
01/28/07 09:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Annapolis, MD
Perhaps your example is an apple and orange comparison.

The Alter cup is more like a college dinghy regatta. Everybody is jumping from boat to boat... Beating/using the rules is viewed as part of the game

You don't really want to argue that the rules and the protest committes are causing a lack of sportsmanship by the sailors do you???


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: "instant justice in the sand" [Re: Mark Schneider] #97593
01/28/07 09:39 PM
01/28/07 09:39 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
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bvining  Offline
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I dont see how you can get DSQ'd if you are not hailed.

Re: "instant justice in the sand" [Re: Mark Schneider] #97594
01/28/07 09:39 PM
01/28/07 09:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
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I'm asserting that there has been an upswing, IMO, of sailors who are willing to "roll the dice" with a protest committee even when they know they are wrong and they broke a rule. If a class takes steps, either administratively or through adopting a pervasive attitude of disapproval, to reduce the erosion of the Corinthian spirit, then I say "well done."


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: "instant justice in the sand" [Re: Mark Schneider] #97595
01/28/07 09:59 PM
01/28/07 09:59 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
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bvining  Offline
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Quote
Is the game better or worse if you dispense with the rules and structure of a protest committe


Better only if its understood by all up front.

Worse if its not.

Re: "instant justice in the sand" [Re: John Williams] #97596
01/28/07 10:37 PM
01/28/07 10:37 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 395
LA
Acat230 Offline
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LA
Quote
Hi Mark -

You'd have to look at the class rules and the SIs for the event - for the Alter Cup's current structure, provisions were made for "beach justice" (a term I thought we'd coined <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />) which changed the standard RRS for time limits, etc. Beach Justice is neccessary in determining who is in the next heat at the Championship.

I am hoping, and working with the judges for the upcoming Alter Cup, to see a drastic reduction in the number of protests and requests for redress filed at the Championship - we have twice missed out on winning the St. Petersburg Trophy for Excellence in Race Management because of the number of protests filed. People need to stop trying to improve their position through litigation - maybe the A-Class has indeed taken steps to see a return to a higher level of sportsmanship.


This was the first protest I have seen at a championship since I have raced in the class. Several of us urged the two sailors to see if they could resolve the incident without taking it to a protest but Ian felt it needed to be heard.

The protest committee was made up of Pease and Jay Glaser who did not sail the race and Ward Cromwell (sailing coach at College of Charleston) who was sailing but did not witness the incident. All are obviously excellent sailors. I do not know the details of the decision as I had to get on the road home.

We in the A-class do try to stress to competitors to resolve incidents if possible on the water. We've been very successful to date and that makes our race committees very happy.

Bob Hodges

Re: "instant justice in the sand" [Re: Mark Schneider] #97597
01/29/07 05:56 AM
01/29/07 05:56 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
I am all for having an organized judge and jury system for relatively major events. The problem is, that on too many occasions, our judge and jury system doesn't work. If frivolous protests would regularly get tossed out of the protest room on their butts, these non-sportsman like things would happen less often. The problem is that stupid protests actually win and THAT is what leads to more racing in the protest room. In the relatively few years I've been sailing, I've seen some real B.S. at many different judicial levels of the sport and organization.

How do you fix it? I'm not really sure....but having an informal, last minute, and possibly untrained protest committee is not the answer (I'm not targeting this event in particular). Having judgments come out that are wrong will make things worse as people see what they can accomplish within that system or feel that they need to step up their game to match those with less sportsmanship. Finding a way to swing more judgments toward caution might help - but again, not sure how you go about that.


Jake Kohl
Re: "instant justice in the sand" [Re: Jake] #97598
01/29/07 07:18 AM
01/29/07 07:18 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
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Long Beach, California
Actually overheard in the restroom at Alter Cup:

"Yeah, I know I was OCS, but hey... you never know, so I went ahead and filed for redress."

I've seen guys I know and respected lie, cheat and steal. Ugly stuff. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

The Protest Committee makes an honest effort - but garbage in = garbage out.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: "instant justice in the sand" [Re: John Williams] #97599
01/29/07 09:49 AM
01/29/07 09:49 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 304
H
Hullflyer1 Offline
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This form of resolving the issue is better known as "KANGAROO COURT"

Re: "instant justice in the sand" [Re: John Williams] #97600
01/29/07 10:02 AM
01/29/07 10:02 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 206
Yardley PA
DanWard Offline
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Yardley PA
I'm not sure I buy into the impromptu meeting in the sand rendering an official decision. I think such meetings could serve to reduce the number of protests filed by persuading someone to drop a protest or to withdraw. How about making it an unofficial pre-hearing to discuss the rules and to test the validity of a protest, the legal equivalent of arbitration prior to litigation.

BTW…54 boats! Well done A cat guys.

Re: "instant justice in the sand" [Re: Hullflyer1] #97601
01/29/07 10:04 AM
01/29/07 10:04 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
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Respectfully but strongly disagree - a kangaroo court is a sham with a foregone conclusion where the defense has no opportunity to present a case. The situations discussed here are completely different. Everything in beach justice follows normal RRS procedure - the only difference is that the time limits for filing protest have changed. I think this is good in some cases because it removes the time period in which some might be tempted to alter their testimony to fit a rule or some Dick Rose article. It also ensures that witnesses are still available and the RC can be quickly queried regarding sailing conditions, etc.

As long as the A-Class made provisions in their race documents for such a procedure, then everything is kosher. I submit that the quality of the decision rendered was unlikely to have been negatively impacted by the change in procedure.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: "instant justice in the sand" [Re: John Williams] #97602
01/29/07 10:06 AM
01/29/07 10:06 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 395
LA
Acat230 Offline
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LA
Quote
Actually overheard in the restroom at Alter Cup:

"Yeah, I know I was OCS, but hey... you never know, so I went ahead and filed for redress."

I've seen guys I know and respected lie, cheat and steal. Ugly stuff. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

The Protest Committee makes an honest effort - but garbage in = garbage out.


The last time I sailed the Alter Cup in 2003 in F-18HT's, we had a block fail for the spinnaker retrieval system during a race. We were first around the weather mark and lost 5-6 boats trying to get the spinnaker up and down with the jammed block sheave. We clawed our way back and passed a competitor who blew a tack at the upwind finish line to finish 4th and felt pretty damn good about it. Later on the beach, we found out this competitor had filed for redress for a similar issue. He won his redress and was given a higher placing than ours in the race. We felt cheated but I think my teammate (Jason Sneed) and I felt better not trying to get a better placing with redress. The block failure could have happened on any boat so we did not think it was fair to request redress.

Peer pressure in a fleet can make a big difference in rules enforcement and I think that is what is working in the A-class to keep the racing clean and fun. Rule breakers will find themselves somewhat ostracized by the rest of the fleet if they practice that behavior.

Bob Hodges

Hooray John Williams! [Re: John Williams] #97603
01/29/07 10:23 AM
01/29/07 10:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 195
Straight Outta Hell
B
Boudicca Offline
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Boudicca  Offline
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B

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Posts: 195
Straight Outta Hell
Boo icky protests!
Hooray Beer!

OSYC regattas do not entertain protests. Mr Schneider, you should see our SIs... "Protests will be heard at 2500h at Red's Levee Bar, bring an Uzi."


This sig would be something witty, but the censors are against that.
Re: "instant justice in the sand" [Re: Acat230] #97604
01/29/07 01:34 PM
01/29/07 01:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Hi Bob

Was the beach justice meeting written about following this procedure

16. ARBITRATION
All protests involving rules of Part 2 of the RRS shall be first submitted to arbitration. The arbitration procedure will be posted on the Official Regatta Notice Board as an addendum to the Sailing Instructions. This changes RRS Rule 63.

or were the two individuals way beyond arbitration and now in the protest meeting stage.

Sounds like a combination of peer pressure and arbitration could handle john's complaint about frivoulous protests.

Boudacia
In the north east we have laws against assult weapons... Sadly... we would not be able to protest in your part of the south.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: "instant justice in the sand" [Re: Mark Schneider] #97605
01/29/07 01:45 PM
01/29/07 01:45 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 117
Northern VA
bsquared Offline
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Northern VA
The use of arbitration was posted in the NOR. The actual procedure was to be posted as an addendum to the SIs, though, and is therefore apparently not available online.

The usual arbitration procedure is that if the parties involved are not satisfied with the concensus of the arbitration (not necessarily the decision, but more the interpretations and outside viewpoint) they can go to a formal protest. However, if they are satisfied that a jury of their peers all see the incident in a certain way, then going to a protest will almost certainly result in a similar verdict (and therefore a waste of everyone's time). What I'm not sure of is if holding an arbitration meeting can be done without filing a protest; is the protest withdrawn if it stops at arbritation; does this then count against any US Sailing report re the RC? Some bean counting type issues there.

We are missing all the information presented at the hearing, so we have NO way of knowing why the offending boat was DSQ, and why the affected boat was not given redress. My GUESS is that the hearing revealed that the offending skipper was proven to have recognised the foul, and did not volunteer a penalty turn. Could he have overturned this in a formal hearing? Maybe, but maybe he didn't want to further compound his initial failure to accept fault. Don't know why he wouldn't have RAF'd himself then (retired after finishing) vs accepting a DSQ, though. No idea on why no redress, unless having your tiller knocked out of your hand is no excuse for then hitting the mark and having to do a turn (in traffic). Maybe he was yelling too much and not grabbing the tiller enough :-) Total conjecture on my part.

I have no problems with arbitration hearings; maybe they prevent some of the BS protests. They can easily stop a lot of newbie protests between people ignorant of or mixed up on rules. Probably less effective for serious complex issues. If nothing else, they involve a bigger circle of people who can now tell other sailors "we told Joe Sea Lawyer that his protest didn't hold water, but he went ahead anyway". In the end, a bad reputation is the only penalty for too many protests.

Re: "instant justice in the sand" [Re: Mark Schneider] #97606
01/29/07 01:55 PM
01/29/07 01:55 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 396
Annapolis Md.
LuckyDuck Offline
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Annapolis Md.
Mark Mark Mark........

Your missing what's important here.

"To cap off the week of racing Bob Webbon delivered free pizza at the final awards ceremony."

From the USACA Website.


Still hazey after all these beers.
F-16 Falcon #212
Single handed boats get that way. [Re: DanWard] #97607
01/29/07 05:16 PM
01/29/07 05:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 47
J
jpayers Offline
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Have noticed that single handed sailors have very narrow minds on who was at fault. The first thing they check when they touch a mark is if anyone saw them.

IMHO at every skippers meeting any PRO worth his salt stands up and makes it clear that the race is being raced by US sailing rules or state clearly who the ruling body is. After that for those that know the rules will abide by them. For those that don't know the rules, no whining.

Let's face it racing is intense and we love it that way. That doesn't mean bending the rules.

By the way I have a pretty big rant!!
Who came up with the B.S. idea that you could sail an entire race like you didn't foul anybody then do a 360 or 720 before you finish. The rules state a penalty turn must be done as soon possible without disturbing others. I hate it when there is a protest at the first mark involving a pack of 10 boats, the boat that fouled does a penalty turn at the end of the race and only losses one place instead of lossing 10 places. Who started this nonsense I blame America's Cup Racing.

Anybody else know who started it?


J.P.Ayers
Isotope 186

Re: Single handed boats get that way. [Re: jpayers] #97608
01/29/07 06:04 PM
01/29/07 06:04 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
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Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Hey Mark,
Still stirring the pot ,I see:).
Dogtown Yacht Club has a rule where the protester must provide beer for all attending the protest committee.
Needless to say this limits the amount of protests,cuz everybody can come to the protest hearing.
Todd


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: "instant justice in the sand" [Re: DanWard] #97609
01/29/07 06:53 PM
01/29/07 06:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah

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South Florida & the Keys
I really appreciate Dan Wards angle. a little legal wrangling to "test" the protest before actually filing one. This keeps everyones rights intact to argue at a later date if they are that convicted.

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