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any updates on new 20 ft cat designs -classes #97874
01/31/07 02:24 PM
01/31/07 02:24 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 96
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Carl Offline OP
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Carl  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 96

I,ve been out of the loop awhile , just wanted to get caught up on any new 20s or potential class developments .

I,d like to see something similar to the B class rules be the basis of a F-20 classification .

It is nice to see the Tybe 500 inc 20s and a F -18 class .

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Re: any updates on new 20 ft cat designs -classes [Re: Carl] #97875
02/02/07 12:15 PM
02/02/07 12:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Naples, FL
I would like to see a cross between the M-20 and N-20. Wide, but not a uni-rig (for distance).
Stronger than an M-20 for repeated beach landings, but lighter than an N-20.
Some way to shorten sail in distance race when foul weather strikes.

Under $20,000 USD with basic equipment


Jay

Re: any updates on new 20 ft cat designs -classes [Re: waterbug_wpb] #97876
02/06/07 08:20 PM
02/06/07 08:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
Pooh-Bah
arbo06  Offline
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Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
Blade 20..... at 10' wide, 400 lbs, carbon mast and beams...

Matt? Please? For us fat guys?

Re: any updates on new 20 ft cat designs -classes [Re: arbo06] #97877
02/07/07 04:30 AM
02/07/07 04:30 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
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West coast of Norway
Eric,

make it 8 foot wide (easier trailering/assembly), put two feet wings on either side, alu beams but carbon mast and make it 330lbs (still buildable in vinylester/glass/foam or even plywood). Put something akin to the Tornado rig on it (or use a Tornado rig), and you have a fast package for the heavyweights.

Re: any updates on new 20 ft cat designs -classes [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #97878
02/12/07 04:29 PM
02/12/07 04:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

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Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
I'll put up with the extra setup hassle to have the hulls farther apart.

Gone are the days when I have two hours in the afternoon for a quick sail. A kitchen pass may earn me a weekend or two of racing, so an extra 1/2 hour on each side (setup, breakdown) doesn't seem that outrageous.

If there is a way to ensure the hulls stay true and parallel with quick installation, that would be best


Jay

Re: any updates on new 20 ft cat designs -classes [Re: waterbug_wpb] #97879
02/17/07 08:44 AM
02/17/07 08:44 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
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South Florida & the Keys
Same here, i actually take the extra day away from work to do nothing but drive and set up, it keeps the stress level down and gives plenty of time for messing about with the boat.

Re: any updates on new 20 ft cat designs -classes [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #97880
02/21/07 11:48 AM
02/21/07 11:48 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 96
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Carl Offline OP
journeyman
Carl  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 96

Sounds good Rolf . 330 Lbs w wings .

The T is 370 --close enough to race evan up .

How wide do wings need to be to = the advantage 10 ft beam provides . My guess is you would need to calc hull weight plus the beam measurement difference and arrive at an equivilant {theoretically} wing size from hull distance.

ie hull weight = 100 LBS * 1.5 beam meas. dif. = 150 ft lbs .

150 ft lbs dif. equates to a 300 LB 2 crew being out .5 ft further or 300*0.5 =150

So the wing should be the beam dif 1.5 ft plus .5 or two ft total out from the hull on cat with 8,5 beam to eqalize ft lbs of righting leverage of the 10 ft beam cat --on average .


I raced H-21s in the Prosail series back in 88 with wings, they were great and much easier to trap level from , they made nice seats between races too .

One error newbys made was not tying in the wings and running spin blocks off them . When the force of the spin pulled them out you had a wing flying all over on the end of the sheet .

Dangerous ,but kinda funny to see a sailor new to wings trying to catch the wing flying 20 ft into the air .

Have fun .

I really miss sailing this time of year here in the frozen GWN .

Last edited by Carl; 02/21/07 11:55 AM.
Re: any updates on new 20 ft cat designs -classes [Re: Carl] #97881
02/21/07 02:44 PM
02/21/07 02:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Charleston, SC
NCSUtrey Offline
old hand
NCSUtrey  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Charleston, SC
We gonna see you in Tybee this year Carl?


Trey
Re: any updates on new 20 ft cat designs -classes [Re: NCSUtrey] #97882
02/21/07 05:09 PM
02/21/07 05:09 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 96
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Carl Offline OP
journeyman
Carl  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 96

Thanks for asking Trey .

Wow -I would love to race the Tybee 500 again ,it looks like a great lineup of teams and people for 07 .

The ol I-20 has another 500 miles left in it -have the gear- trailer -van -equipement -know how etc , think it would be my 9th Tyee and 1000 mile race, so if you know of an independantly wealthy sponsor, crew and or ground crew that would like to team up --let me know <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> {joking kinda }

have fun all

http://www.tybee500.com/register/entries

Re: any updates on new 20 ft cat designs -classes [Re: Carl] #97883
02/23/07 10:39 AM
02/23/07 10:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
Pooh-Bah
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Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
Carl,

Would we need to consider the difference in the distance of the mast from the leeward hull as it relates to righting moment. Half of 8'6" id 4'3" and half of 10' is 5'. Does the extra 9" on the leward side offer advantages?

Re: any updates on new 20 ft cat designs -classes [Re: arbo06] #97884
02/24/07 09:08 AM
02/24/07 09:08 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 96
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Carl Offline OP
journeyman
Carl  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 96
I think you have to consider total beam differences as the cb {center of Bouyancy } is the leeward hull and the lever arm is the beam measurement.

The masts centered being equal you have 9 inches to leeward and 9 to weather of added leverage .

In lighter winds {non trap}conditions the added beam or wings are a non factor.

1.5 extra beam * a 300 lb crew = 450 ft lbs of added leverage .

The hull weight needs to be factored in as well from the the 10 ft beam to the 8.5 beam {see previous post } .

That is 1.5 beam dif.* 100 lb hull = 150 ft lbs

A 300 LB crew needs to be out .5 further to compensate for hull weight of the 10 ft beam version or 300*.5 = 150 ft lbs

The total being 2 ft wings .

Think that's right. some can argue differently for valid reasons , but that's always part of measurement rating eqalizations.

I would like to see something like Rolf noted form into a new B class / Formula 20 class with room for experimentation and development , of course I have for the last decade or so . <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Re: any updates on new 20 ft cat designs -classes [Re: Carl] #97885
02/24/07 09:31 AM
02/24/07 09:31 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Carl,

it will happen. Just make a concensus on the design envelope, which is mostly in place from last winter or the winter before. Then build boats and get the craze going.
I know I will build one based on the alu Tornado rig, but it will have to wait until I have the F-16 ready and blessings from my wife. Why the Tornado rig? Becouse it is highly developed and fast out of the box. Plenty of tuning information available, plus I know the rig intimately from the years I have been sailing tornados. Having a surplus of cheap used alu masts dont hurt either.
The F-16 will be used for class racing and solo sailing, hopefully with the kids. The "F-20Super" is to be my distance race and distance racing machine.

There has been enough talk, get some hulls buildt and cobble together some platforms. Getting some protos on the water will do a lot to show manufacturers that there is a market for this kind of boat.

12 foot [Re: Carl] #97886
02/24/07 02:24 PM
02/24/07 02:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
old hand
cyberspeed  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
If you guys are going to form a F20 class why not make the width 12 feet. If you want the narrow boat, race an F18. If you are going to a 10 foot boat, might as well go all the way to 12 foot.

My 2 cents...


craig van eaton
Supercat 20
TEAM CYBERSPEED
www.TeamCyberspeed.com
Endurance Series
www.SailSeries.com
Re: 12 foot [Re: cyberspeed] #97887
02/25/07 04:59 AM
02/25/07 04:59 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Why 12 foot? The ancient and most used formula for width is half the length. 8 foot is advantageous becouse it is legal trailering width. In low wind areas it's also advantageous with a narrow boat.

But whatever, just get some boats on the water and lets sort them out afterwards.

Re: 12 foot [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #97888
02/25/07 10:36 AM
02/25/07 10:36 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
old hand
cyberspeed  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
I have been sailing an SC20 for over 10 years now and once you go with a wider boat, you never go back. If you are going to go with a boat wider than the trailerable width, you might as well go all the way.


craig van eaton
Supercat 20
TEAM CYBERSPEED
www.TeamCyberspeed.com
Endurance Series
www.SailSeries.com
Re: 12 foot [Re: cyberspeed] #97889
02/25/07 11:52 AM
02/25/07 11:52 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
There is a point where the added righting moment is larger then what the leeward bow can carry. The wider the platform become vs. length and bouyancy, the easier it will be to pitchpole the platform. The Tornado is 20x10foot, and it is wide enough. I can count on two hands how many times I could have wished for more RM over the last 7 years. But we have raced in uncountable times in weaker winds where we really wished we could have got it up on one hull. It is a severe handicap in the light stuff when narrow boats can fly a hull while the wider boats are locked down with both hulls in the water.
If you live in an area with predominantly strong winds, the extra width and RM makes sense. If you live in an area with medium/weak winds, the extra RM becomes an handicap. Especially as in my opinion the "F20Super" should be designed for sailors a little bit heavier than the current classes. But, why not? Go for it and compare the performance to more narrow boats.. Over time the boats who compete will find the 'sweet spot' for how wide they should be. As long as the rig and sailarea is defined, the RM and optimum width can be calculated.

Re: any updates on new 20 ft cat designs -classes [Re: Carl] #97890
02/26/07 02:52 PM
02/26/07 02:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Charleston, SC
NCSUtrey Offline
old hand
NCSUtrey  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Charleston, SC
Carl, we'd love to see you out there. I have some Nigerian friends that are sending me a $10,000 check for a sunfish, I think I'll just forward the rest to you so you can do Tybee, sound good?

Get some change together, I'll find you an able ground crew, and show up! You'll only need about $3500-4000.


Trey
Re: any updates on new 20 ft cat designs -classes [Re: NCSUtrey] #97891
02/27/07 11:01 AM
02/27/07 11:01 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 96
C
Carl Offline OP
journeyman
Carl  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 96

Too funny --thanks Trey .

I have an I -20 for sale in the classifieds { have others cats} and I've recieved about a dozen of those e-mails from "overseas buyers" that want to run the 10 k sunfish type scam .--sheeeesh .

It is nice to see some F-18 teams signing up for the Tybee 500 this year.
And Again I would love to race the Tybee again , it is such a great group of folks, each team competative, but everyone sharing a common love of sailing /racing and a great 500 mile adventure up the E coast together. Each day a fresh start and new race .

Have a great time .

Re: any updates on new 20 ft cat designs -classes [Re: arbo06] #97892
04/20/07 12:09 PM
04/20/07 12:09 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 19
Homestead, Fl.
rickmatos Offline
stranger
rickmatos  Offline
stranger

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 19
Homestead, Fl.
Hi,

I saw a big yellow cat drive by, trailered, in front of my house a few days ago. I live in Homestead, Fl. Can anyone tell me who has a big (20') yellow cat who lives in Homestead, Florida?

Rick


Ricky 305-562-2490 Homestead, FL. Skype: Boataholik matosr@windjammer.com
Re: any updates on new 20 ft cat designs -classes [Re: rickmatos] #97893
04/20/07 02:44 PM
04/20/07 02:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacifi...
hobie1616 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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“an island in the Pacifi...
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