I found myself in this situation in tacticat. I cannot find my rules book anywhere! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> I was the black boat.

Who has right of way?

I eased my sails and tacked to clear him, but when I tacked I noticed he tacked as well to avoid me. No collisions happened, but I am interested in this situation.

What rules apply etc etc. Lets discuss this. Interesting aint it.


Edit: this is not an actual screenshot. The circle represents the two boat length zone. The boats were lasers, by why draw half boats? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Rule 18.1(b) applies, so 2 BL circle is irrelevant.
(there is no buoy room at a weather mark)

Black's only recourse is to slow down, tack (or jibe) and take a hitch to weather on port before tacking back to lay the mark.

Are you sure that red tacked to avoid you? Or just because he didn't think he could lay the mark?

Good call, maybe he did, funny we both tacked at the very same time. He could have pinched a little higher, the red boat (laser in tacticat) would have cleared the mark. Lots of people do it all the time. We were ahead of the fleet so maybe he did not want to loose speed so he tacked. I have no idea. After looking at the image and remembering, maybe we were actually higher on the line.

Once I can find my book <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /><img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> I will read up on those specific rules

Everyone around here has more racing experience than I do, but where does 18.1 b contain anything about it being a weather mark. It states marks or obstructions. Please explain because I get confused about these things.

Wouldn't black, being the inside overlap boat at the two-boat-length circle have bouy room? Plus isn't he the leeward boat? I would think Black had all kinds of right of way, but I've been known to total misinterpret the rules too. I always get those darn rule quizes wrong.

-Rob V.

They way I interpreted the situation was, the black boat (me) was inside, so close that if I started a tack I would touch his boat before completing the tack (pass head to wind) I did not hail him for room either, so I did not give him time to tack as well. In essence I had NO rights because I did not give him enough time to tack. That is the main reason I eased my sails out to slow down and then tack. BUT, when I tacked, I noticed him tack as well. Maybe he tacked to avoid being penalized or maybe to make the mark.

I think the assumption can be made that they are rounding to PORT and so black is not laying the mark.

Could you clarify what you mean by that? I had somebody once tell me that (no buoy room at a weather mark) on the water and he was later proven sorely mistaken. I still have the nickel to prove it.

18.2(b) OVERLAPPED AT THE ZONE
If boats were overlapped before either of them reached the twolength
zone and the overlap is broken after one of them has reached
it, the boat that was on the outside shall continue to give the other
boat room. If the outside boat becomes clear astern or overlapped
inside the other boat, she is not entitled to room and shall keep clear.

In other words, red owes black room at the mark no matter what happens after they entered the 2BL circle. Now, it's up to black if he can get there and use it.

Yeah, that is my point too. I have heard people say that about weather marks but have not found it in the rules.

If you can't find your book, you can always find the sailing rules at www.sailing.org

OK, let's break it down:

In the position shown in Robi's diagram, Black (B) has the initial right of way because it is a leeward boat (Rule 11).

I think we all agree that B cannot lay the mark, even by luffing head to wind and coasting.

Red (R) can probably lay the mark by luffing and pinching.

R would need to avoid B if B tried to luff, but that's Rule 11, not Rule 18. B would be subject to the limitations of Rule 16 (Changing Course) and Rule 13 (While Tacking) if it went past head to wind.

B must tack (or gybe) to round the mark. Once they pass head to wind, Rule 13 kicks in and they must keep clear.

At that point, Rule 18.1(b) kicks in, which basically says that for boats on opposite tacks at a weather mark, Rule 18 does not apply.

B has two choices:
1) Luff hard and try to take R out (not my favorite, but hey, they're Lasers). This might be the only option if there's a lot of traffic immediately behind and there's no room to tack or gybe.
2) Slow down and tack as soon as it can clear R, or do a 270 degree gybe (again, they're Lasers and they spin on a dime), take the hitch out and tack back.

I prefer #2 since I would prefer to be at a keg after the races than in the protest room. The real lesson is to not let yourself get into that position in the first place if you can help it.

Nearly..... Red does not owe black room if the two are on opposite tacks (irrelevant in this case) or if black must tack to get around the mark as part of his proper course (highly relevant).

As part of his standard windward/leeward rules, red must also keep clear of black. That means that black shall be able to change course without immediately colliding with red. However..... depending on how the overlap was established, black may or may not be able to sail above her proper course to push the windward boat out. We simply don't have enough information from this example to draw any conclusion in this regard.

Cheers,
Tiger Mike

>>(there is no buoy room at a weather mark)<<

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only times there is not room at a weather mark is if the boats are on opposite tacks, or if one but not both boats must tack to round the weather mark.

sm

I think that "no room at weather" is a common sense thing, not a ruled thing. If a fellow comes reaching in and tries to shut the door on you, then windward/leeward applies and you boot the door open. Unless, of course, you are like Robi and your legs are too short to reach the door.

You don't ask for room, you ask for UP!

suppose you had a big windshift and two of you are approaching the mark on port - are you saying that the outside boat can pinch the inside boat off at the mark?

http://www.hobiecat.com/hobieclass/eHCA_News05-06_2005.pdf
Page 12

I figured there must be an old rule that some people were still hanging onto.

In tacticat though, B could hail "windward" and tack immediately to hit R. Since B would not complete the tack (head to wind) and put himself on a port tack before he hit R, wind-lee rules would still apply when he hit R, and R would be at fault. But, if he hit head to wind as he hit R, port-start rules would apply, and he would be at fault. Remember, this is only if B raised the "W" flag on tacticat. I dont think being in the 2 BL circle matters if neither of them are on a layline for the mark, (not the case)...but i may be wrong