Physics is physics... You only get so much horsepower out of the rig and you have to move a fixed amount of mass in the boat PLUS the team on the boat. Skill matters but you can't violate the laws of the universe. Design allows you to depower effectively.. (good for the small guys) Design gives you max horsepower available. (good for the small guys... bad for the big guys who need more horsepower)

Obviously, they have now maxed out the power of the rig and sail plan.

The T Class has strictly enforced their 5 knot minimum windspeed rule. Protests are filed if the PRO tries to cheat.. Since the teams at the elite level all clustered around the optimal weight for most championship conditions... the class thought the competition was fair (without a weight minimum).

Now in China... the 5 knot rule is off... If the flag on the beach even moves.. they start and race. So...The only way to rebalance the equation is with a min weight rule. Since the only game that matters for the next two years is China... they have to find a way to reestablish a competitive playing field.

What is the problem? The min weight rule will have NO effect on any other Tornado competition outside of China.. BECAUSE they will only race in 5 knotts and up.

From my point of view... the best in the world recognize that weight matters and so to maintain a broad level of competition they will adjust the rules.... Notice.. No heavyweights are doing well in the T class... you better get to the optimum weight or no amount of skill will save you! This class is not TRYING to appeal to a large portion of the sailing public.. contrast that with F18's which have a large and small sail program for teams of very different weights. So, two different games and both are fair!

Hmmm..... Gee, when the Clubs and Portsmouth committe try to generate as level a playing field as possible for as many sailors as possible by using the wind speed adjustment in handicap racing... will the volume of screaming decrease? (Not a chance!)

Will weight adjustments be allowed for the Alter cup qualifiers? (Yes... they should be!)

Should equipment changes which increase the performance but may not be properly factored into the rating be allowed at alter cup qualifiers? (No, too much room for playing the rules and possible loopholes here.)

Should single one off boats have Portsmouth ratings (since the results of a single skipper determine the boats ratings... its essentially a personal handicap) (NO! see caveat)

Should these one off boats get a measurement rating which is then scaled into the portmsouth ratings so that they can race and compete in the Alter qualifiers? (Yes!... when they get a class of boats together and hold a set number of events.... they can go be treated like any other PN class!)

How is that for a thread hijack...

Back on point...

My point is... the rules are set up by US so that WE GET A FAIR PLAYING FIELD. and they are transparent enough so nobody has an ax to grind about politics... or an advantage through some super duper technology that only an elite group of sailors get access to (see last olympics cluster !@#$$%).

So far... the T class and the F18 class have BANNED super duper sail materials (solves one problem from last olympics)

They replaced the opportunity for custom alu masts (read $$$$) with an ISAF mandated Best manufacturing process mast program where EVERY MAST MADE is serial numbered and the Bend characteristics are measured for each stick andthese nubmers are published for the public to view (see www.tornado.org) (solves 2nd problem from last olympics)

Now they are joining the F18 class by legislating a min team weight but still keeping their wind minimum for all events besides china (which they have no control over)

Seems fair to the majority of sailors in the class to me! It would be silly to generate a group of T cat sailors who tip the scales at weights that the junior sailors compete at.

Waiting for Dave I and Mary with flame suit on!

Some sailors have no choice but to tip (and top) the scales at the weight of junior sailors. As far as I can tell, the Tornado class has been around for a long time without suffering severely unfair competition from weight differentials in the fleet. The top Tornado sailors are Olympic class competitors; highly trained and highly tuned. Of all one-design catamaran classes, the Tornado seems the least likely to require the employment of a weight minimum or maximum.

Mark,
I guess some of us do not have the advantage of knowing how the actual ballot is worded. The original proposal says,
"A minimum crew weight rule would protect the class from excessive crew manipulation at major championships that are held at very light air venues."

From that I assumed that this minimum crew weight would be a permanent part of the Tornado Class rules, just as it is for the Hobies and Nacras and Prindles and other classes.

But if it is just a change that only is in effect for major events where the 5-knot-minimum wind rule is not going to be enforced (and the sailing instructions say so), it would indeed make sense to have a minimum weight rule to counterbalance the wind rule change.

So, if that is the case, is there a provision for adding weights to the underweight boats for that particular event? And how much weight will be allowed to be added?

Is the Tornado the ONLY class that is asking for a minimum crew weight limit for the Olympics in Quindao?

I fully realize that this is a decision to be made by the class (and ISAF), and it is really no business of us non-Tornado-sailors. Except for the fact that our Olympic classes represent our countries, so the rest of the sailing community DOES feel involved to some extent in decisions that may affect one of our Olympic classes -- especially one that is open to women as well as men.

This vote seems to imply using a light crew is not capable of Olympic caliber sailing?

When I was on the sailing regularly, I used to have two crews, and would choose according to an upcomming regatta's wind conditions.

I guess, now, it is impractical for the skippers to have a light air crew?
Because if the wind picks up it is unsafe, uncompetitive, another mouth to feed/train?

It would be unfair (to crew) to qualify for the Olympics wtih one crew, and use another for the grand event.
(class rules say must use same crew you qualified with)

I thought the skipper's crew choice was part of the game?

At the top level, I dont think you have the luxury of switching crews anymore. Just too hard to keep both crews in tune with yourself and the skill level needed. As most teams are professional sailors, financing would be harder. And finally, how would you motivate your heavy weather crew for the full olympic cycle?


Today, the class rules in the Tornado class dont say anything about the qualification process, that is fully up to ISAF and the national assocs(MNA). If they decide that Bundys best chance at winning is with the australian prime minister, that is his crew (or could the queen represent Australia?) <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
There is even no warranty for the team who qualifies their country that they will get the olympic berth. It is all about winning (and IOC's money)

I notice that the quotes from the F18 crews include the comment by the #2 boat includes the fact that they are quicker than The B&D show in heavier air because they have more weight and can drive through the heavy seas.
Maybe the weight for the F18 is set wrong. B&D could be cut out of the comp with some more sensible weight ideas.
B y the way, nobody answered e on the weights for lgith crew idea. IF heavier crews have an advantage in heavy air would it not be fair to have a top weight rule in heavy air comps?
By the way.. what is the perfect "acceptable" weight?

Just wanted to add that my skipper and I are changing boats (H20 to a F16) just to be in a class with no minimum crew weight. We are 265lbs together with all our gear on. Carrying weight and having a heavy boat is just too much (and dangerous). We are not Olympic material but really enjoy racing. So I can vouch for teams that are lightweights and can't gain weight. If the class has not had a minimum crew weight in the past they really shouldn't add it now.

Rolf is absolutely correct about the national sailing authorities.

The sailing federation could care less about the team... they only care about winning a medal. .... Once the country has qualified... eg one of the teams finishes high enough in the world's Grade one and two events to secure one of the 20 slots allocated to Tornados .... the sailing federation could send whomever they wish to the Olympics. They do not even have to send they’re "top team". So, nothing would stop a country.... especially a country with a lower ranked and back of the fleet team to take that helm, roll the dice and create a new team with one new member weighing in at 70 lbs if they thought it would get them a medal.... In fact... it would be the smart thing to do!

Remember, they have the same discretion as the Gymnastics or Ice Skating federations... (For example the USA sailors might remember that Michelle Kwan was given a slot at the last Olympics based on her past accomplishments in ice skating. ... no worries about the competitor who finished third!).

By voting against the proposal, you shift MORE power to the Sailing Federations and TAKE power away from the sailors in the Class who are competing for the Olympic competition.

For USA Sailors... do you really want to give Gary Bodie the opportunity to "COACH"... ???

(remeber this is the guy... who failed to discern that Kelly Jason was a GIRL entered into A MEN'S ONLY F18 ISAF competition and peform the proper due dillegence to make sure she had a waiver (or not...), but the other GIRL in the competition when informed that she could not helm with two X chromsomes withdrew and that was that.)

For the rank and file sailors, this class rule has no relevance... This is simply for the China Olympics and effects only the sailors who compete at the international level. By passing the weight minimum, the Class can preserve some integrity in the Olympic game by simply passing the min weight rule.

The hand wringing about the fairness to the featherweight sailors, etc, etc is not the essential issue.

Mark

As an aside, are there any female teams in the Olympic tornado competition?

Sure.. Carolijn Brower (sp) from Belgium is a top 20 helm.... and curretly top 5 in the F18's down under. Obviously.... she is really good!

No all female teams as far as I know...but there are a few boy/girl teams.

That's what I was asking (all female teams). Thanks!

This entire class is so far above my ability level, it's hard to imagine...

A long, long time ago in galaxy far, far away . . .

Gary Bodie used to race Hobie 16s.

I know. I was there.

Mark,
I still have the question: If a minimum crew weight is approved for the 2008 Olympics, will underweight crews be allowed to add weights to the boat?....and, if so, what will be the maximum amount of weight they are allowed to add?

Mary, surely they should be allowed to wear the weight..so they can move it about the boat in the same way as the "chosen ones" can.

I don't think any of the classes that have minimum crew weights allow the weight to be added to the person. Usually has to be put inside the hulls or attached somehow to the main beam.

I don't know why they can't carry it on their body. Maybe it is a safety issue or an enforcement issue.

Probably a bit of both. Imagine trying to catch a wayward T boat with an extra 10lbs of lead weight in your gear....

It's a Racing Rules of Sailing issue:

But that still begs the question of "why".

I wonder how many sweat shirts (or maximun thickness of SShirt) you can wear before they cry foul?
(to keep warm)