So in summary.... or what I read into this thread

1) the Opti has it right and a good starter boat for all

2) After the Opti kids tend to go into monohulls, due to peer pressure, parents or scholarships

3) Cat classes exist above the laser 4.7 and 420 range, thus a 'new' cat has to be designed to fill this gap.

4) Not enough kids go into cats see 2 and 3

5) Attitude towards cats by MNAs and Parents

6) Perception is that running a Cat is expensive, (not sure if thats just a UK thing or not)

7) Lack of support by MNA for a cat programme

So IMHO rather than having a US cat approach to ISAF and a UK one ALL cat sailors should unite and come up with a unified approach

Looking over the vanguard price listing :


A club420 goes for 6995 USD = 7000 USD where the lastest detailed cost estimate for the F12 is at 3641 USD and thus 2 F12's for 7282 USD.

A laser 1 (any version) will set you back at least 5000 USD.

Opt goes for 2600 USD.

Not a discouraging picture, I say.

Especially not with the ability of the F12 to take the laser-1 rig. That too cuts down seriously in start-up costs if the club already has several of these laying around. It would certainly be a good selling argument towards the club even though it is practically assured that special F12 sails will be made later.

Come to think of, with a suit of special F12 sails the laser-1's at the club will also have access to more powerful and more controllable rigs that can be put on the laser without modification. Multfunctionality and another selling point to convince the club's dinghy sailors that to allow cats in may be in their personal interest as well ?

Wouter

I think what you are proposing looks good. I agree with stuartoffer and have been saying pretty much the same, that what is needed is a unified approach to the issue. So that the US is not doing one thing and the UK and the rest of the world another. So maybe we need to begin a thread that specifically deals with the development issue solely. Actually, I think that thread actually exists and needs to be updated. Maybe Rick can set up a thread on the issue that stays on the front page and keeps it in everyones mind.

You are absolutely correct.

I think the line of proposed boats c.q classes certainly reflects this as well. All are present in ample numbers all over the world. The nacra 5.0 c.q. 500 class needs reviving, but I'm sure you'll find a willing ear at the European Nacra importer. They are reporting many sales of this boat and I'm sure they are happy to form a class with them. We just need to make sure that nacra doesn't change the design every 2 years from now on. I suspect none of the other classes like F18's and A-cats will object to accepting a youth pipeline being fed into their classes. They would be foolish to do so. Same for the Tornado and F16 classes.

Okay, I admit there are some impressive fools about. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />


I think it most promising to start contacting the individual international classes and try to work out a plan that is publically supported by all. This costs no money so they will be hard pressed to object. It is just some prominantly featured webpage on the international and national sites and some promise to try to work out some small coaching programs and clinic for young teams new to the class. The classes are big enough to be able to find a few enthousiastic volunteers to do something like this on a small scale. Doesn't have to be large scale from the start, just start small, proof the concept and then steady expand it over time.


Being noticed by the ISAF, RYA, US sailing and others is just more paper (e-mails) too. We just need somebody with some spare time and a high resistance against maddening bureaucray to exert continued pressure over long periods of time. We give this person standing and power by having all the class in the youth traject refer to him for any communication on these topics. In short, create a single focal point for these monolithic organisations and empower him. Then they can also not say that they didn't know who to contact anymore. Solves that issue as well.

Up till now this has all been "no-budget" activities, just takes time and dedication.

The hard part is to get an active "get them young" youth program going on the Nacra 500 (and Hobie 16's) and the cat alternative to the Lasers. This will require organising small events and more serious coaching. I think Mark Schneider has the right angle here. Start at the sailing clubs, contacting them and convince them to allow you to place a demo boat there and have access to their coach/young sailors. Only a few key clubs at first and then steadily expand the programs. Start small, proof the concept and expand later. That may luck futile at first but it will work.

That should cover the organisational and international unity side of things, at least as a start.


The other hard thing is finding or designing the catamaran alternative to the laser. Establishing that class will be major project. With the F12 I can offer a head-start but it will still not be easy. On the other hand I have received over the months inquiries from Norway, UK, USA, Holland, Spain and even places like Thailand. For a project that has no real internet presence I find that very encouraging. It seems to touch a snare in many people, they appear to like concept.

I dare venture that building it is easy enough to form small local building groups of enthousiasts. Some people inquiring about the F12 mentioning forming such groups themselves. It appears many do not find homebuilding an F12 as daunting as say home building an A-cat or F16. On the advice of Phill Brander I'm sticking to an easy to build hull shape. All the other stuff like homebuilding a mast and the sails are really not hard to do. I just measured up my class 5 sail and there is no seaming there. Just stichting panels together with reinforcements and cutting a luff curve. There is not bolt rope, eyes or other more complicated stuff required. It is on a par with stitching your own stunt kites and many a homebuilder has done that. I also envision having the boat owner cost his own panels and supplying that with proper a thread to a decent sized shoe/bag maker and have him use his industrial sized machine to stitch the stuff together. Otherwise if have contacts who could do it professionally and send it over. The package is small and light so should cost too much

What I'm trying to say here is that I think we can also make the laser alternative work. It will be more involved and require some committed hands-on activity but it can be made to work even without companies like Vanguard involved. Never count on their support, that way you are garanteed proper support by them.

The other alternative is to approach a company like VectorWork Marine and have them do the hulls which will then be completed by the homebuilders themselves. This is attractive to VWM as their core business is tooling and production but not chandlery and fitting out boats. The later is time consuming, expensive and takes alot of organising. So if the group of dedicated buyers is large enough then that route can be made to work as well. Maybe find similar setups using guys like Steve Clark and his semi-professional "shed" ? I think I know a likely victom in Australia as well. Once such programs are about getting kids into sailing many people can't just say "no!" anymore. Lets abuse that !

Yes I think both complementary tracks can be made to work with a "no budget" to "low budget" approach. Once the concept is starting to proof itself we can go and hunt for sponsors to expand the programs and maybe get on the road.

This is the way I would approach the situation.

Wouter

OK, This thread has turned into at least three seperate issues.
1) Keeping Cats in the Olympics
2) Promoting Youth Sailing
3) Developing youth to sail in the Olympics

I think the answers to much of this was mentioned on the first page by Jake. Participation in the organizations!!

If there are not Cat sailors at the bar drinking scotch with the blue blazer crowd(insert Dan Delaves picture) it really won't matter what is done on the grass roots level.

Whether at the local yacht club or on a national level it is about participation and the social scene (insert one of Mark S's speaches on the social aspect)

Jake, John W, Dan D, Matt B and others are involved with US Sailing on a National level. That is where things will get done.
Remember the "Golden Rule"
He with the Gold, makes the rules. We need members in high places.

The idea that a 5 boat progression between the ages of 8-18 with a minimum cost of boats at $50K to get kids to sail in the Olympics is unrealistic IMO
To build on something Mike said. We can all spend a great deal of time and money on our kids to promote sailing and one day they can decide they aren't into that any more.
My daughter has sailed in 4 nationals at 12 years old, is very athletic and an honor roll student. She has skippered a number of club races and done very well.
Right now she is enrolled in children's theater because she wants to be an actress. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
It was Karate before that and something else next year(hopefully golf, that pays well).

some progress

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=138678

Now all we have to do is get them to amend the 2012 submission and we are better

Hey Pat, acting pays really well too. I wish I continued down that path when it was available to me...

As to the post from Scooby, it's interesting that RYA sees the ISAF Youth events as the path to Olympics. I can't get a clear understanding by looking at the USSA website what they consider to be the Olympic path. We have multiple Youth Championships and the Junior Olympic program, neither of which is mentioned on the "Olympic" section of the USSA website. There is mention of the ISAF events, and there is an "Elite" team that is supposed to give more help to selected Olympic hopefuls (currently just Lasers and Laser Radial sailors). The Hobie 16 team for the ISAF event is listed, but again, there is no real indication that this is a path to the Tornado.

Here's a WAY-outside-the-box idea. Why don't we stop banging our heads against the wall? We can do what the inline skaters, skateboarders, etc. did and latch on to the X-Games!!! Who cares if they don't have skateboarding in college or the Olympics, those guys get on TV and can make some serious cash! Maybe then, the IOC will pay attention, as they did with snowboards! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

EDIT: Sorry, can't spell today... and I'm off to help run an Olympic Trials regatta for the weekend.

Mike

Thats why I said, lets start the right thread so this one can get back on topic.

This is the most recent from the RYA. It seems that they have reconsidered their position as to the youth development program, but not the Olympic submissions.

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=138678
RYA Council reviews stance on Youth and Olympic events

By RYA Racing Department 16:56 4 October 2007No votes yet - Please log in or register to cast your vote.
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At its meeting at the Royal Thames Yacht Club yesterday (Wednesday 3 October) the RYA Council further discussed submissions from the RYA to the 2007 ISAF Conference relating to future events in both the ISAF World Youth Sailing Championships and the Olympic Games.

During the meeting, Chris Atkins, Chairman of the RYA Racing Committee, revisited the two submissions with the RYA Council in light of the recent strength of feeling expressed towards them by the UK catamaran community.

RYA Council maintains its belief that catamaran racing is an important part of the sport of sailing in the UK, and accepts that the intent of these submissions was not communicated as well as it could have been to relevant stakeholders within the UK sailing fraternity. It believes, nevertheless, that its submissions are important in order to initiate strategic discussions within ISAF, the body responsible for the global direction of the sport and the final arbiter on which events are included at the ISAF Youth World Championships and the Olympic Games.

Following its meeting, RYA Council resolved to amend its submission relating to future events at the ISAF Youth World Championships. RYA Council believes these Championships should be as inclusive as possible, commensurate with them providing a pathway for youth sailors into Olympic events. RYA Council therefore believes that both double-handed trapeze dinghy racing and skiff racing should both be included in the Championships as these are included in the Olympic regatta. Therefore the amended submission now advocates the following events:

Boy’s one person dinghy
Girl’s one person dinghy
Boy’s two person dinghy
Girl’s two person dinghy
Boy’s windsurfer
Girl’s windsurfer
Open Multihull
Open two person high performance dinghy

On the RYA submission relating to the selection of events for the 2012 Olympic Sailing Competition, Council resolved to continue with the submission in its current format, ie:

One person dinghy – Men
One person dinghy – Women
Two person dinghy – Men
Two person dinghy – Women
Two person, high performance dinghy – Men
Two person, high performance dinghy – Women
Windsurfing – Men
Windsurfing – Women
The final two events would be decided by the ISAF Council.

It was further agreed that the RYA would look to assist the multihull classes to establish a system to promote and generate multihull sailing for youths, along at the lines of its Team15 programme which attracts youngsters into windsurfing.

RYA personnel involved with both Racing and Sport Development are due to meet representatives of the catamaran community, including F18 International, the UK Tornado Class Association, and the UK Catamaran Racing Association, on Monday 8 October to discuss these issues and ways of developing this branch of sailing within the UK.

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The competition to be the best Olympic Classes sailors in the country is hotting up as the second of the 2007 RYA Olympic Classes National Ranking Series events takes place at Weymouth and Portland National Sailing Academy this weekend
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RYA statement on future Olympic and Youth multihull classes - 28 Sep 2007
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Making the entry cat faster, safer, "cooler" ("hotter", whatever), cheaper, etc.

The marketing is like this: kids prefer the boat and ask for it. Then parents check if it is safe enough, easy enough, etc. - compared to the Optimist.

If we get kids to ask for it and parents find it a good choice vis-a-vis the Optimist, it MAY work. Otherwise it is a waste of time.

I comment on this somewhat cautiously... after all the RYA is supposed to represent UK sailors, not me or most of the rest of us catamaran sailors. So I realize that ultimately my opinion really doesn't count for anything. But having said that, for what it's worth...

Their statement is just nauseating. They claim that they erred in not explaining themselves adequately and then (apparently) try to remedy this by "explaining" that "its submissions are important in order to initiate strategic discussion within ISAF".

So they evidently believe there is some issue that needs to be discussed, but instead of having the courage to tell people what that is and maybe what their analysis of the situation is, they choose instead to send what can only be called a coded message by failing to endorse a multihull, keelboat and heavyweight dinghy and giving preferential endorsement to other disciplines.

And this suggestion about "strategic discussions" is nonsense anyhow as far as 2012 is concerned. As I pointed out in my post on the London Games forum, the RYA know very well that the criteria for selecting classes for those games are already locked down. There is no role for strategic discussions.

The RYA is just manouvring (politicking) to limit the damage c.q. to still get what they want but not be as obvious about it.

Their last communique is the same. Both of these contain the inherent danger of convincing the cat sailors that things are not as bad after all and stop actively pursuing an uniform and coordinate youth track as discussed in this thread.

We shouldn't allow that to happen unless we want to be assured that the next time things are quiet around cats the organisations like RYA and US sailing will give it another try.

Wouter

Wouter

Now I am definateley concerned that is twice in one thread I agree with you!

Sarcasm asside...... Wouter is right we should keep up the pressure. The next step is to see what the RYA have to say at the meeting with vaious representatives of the catamaran associations on Monday

Im sure I speak for ALL cat sailors in the UK when I say a big thank you to all around world who have offered and given us your support at this time it has been appreciated.

How can these 2 positions be compatable? By saying in one hand that the Youths should 'mimic' the Olympics in styles of boats, thus supporting a multihull, and then NOT support a multihull for the Olympics for which these youths who are sailing in a multihull are aiming does seem a little strange.

There is an obvious error in my mast measurements of the laser mast and I don't have easy access to a laser-1 mast.

Can anyone on this forum measure their Laser-1 mast for me, especially the bottom section that goes into the socket. I had forgotten to measure the depth of the socket so can you measure that too ?

I'm interested in the diameter of each section, the wallthickness, the overall length and the length of the overlap. Please use a venier tool to measure the diameter and especially the wallthickness. I suspect that the bottom section has a wider diameter on the bottom then at its top. Probably because a smaller reinforcing tube is inserted there to withstand the high pressures excerted on the bottom section by the (hull) socket.

I don't have access to a laser radial of laser 4.7 rig and I'm sure a different mast is used for at least one of these. Can someone also measure these for me if they can.

I'm trying to design the F12 so it can take the laser rigs. Not as standard but as a fall back option when money is tights and second hand laser rigs are cheap to get by a potential F12 owner.

Wouter

The RYA position is clear. The has spoken their thoughts about Cats in the Olympics by way of ommission. It is their belief that by not stating in writing that they want to pull multihulls from the Olympics, that they have no stance against them. The omission itself is the answer to their stance on the issue. It is also a way to distance themselves from any backlash should cats get dropped. They now can say, we did not speak out against cats, we just took a neutral position. That though is rubbish. It is clear that the RYA hopes that we will go away having been appeased by their latest statements and forget that there was even an issue or question. This way eventually they or USSailing will try again.

I can assure you that cat sailors in the UK will NOT go away and will battle on.

There are 2 parts to the RYAs response and both must be addressed.

1) Cat sailors might welcome this slight change of stance however, one has to ask why propose more classes than are permitted knowing that some are going to be voted out. This is almost the same as not supporting a multihull. The cynical among us beleive that this latest is just a smoke screen and IS NOT a change in stance by the RYA but a way round the PR war they are loosing (LOST!!!!) thus deflecting many issues on the meeting with cat classes on Monday.

2) the Ommission in supporting a catamaran in the Olympic submission. This cat sailors feel is a real slap in the face.

The RYA by doing this appear to want to wash their hands of both issues, my thoughts go to the BIBLE and Pontious Pilate. With issues of such importance one would hope for leadership.

Well, we need to be fair to Pontius here. He did present a choice to the people between Barabbas and Jesus. The people chose to let Barabbas of the hook and thus sealed Jesus fate. If only the RYA were so inclined, I mean to have even offered the sailing community a clear choice !

Wouter

Perhaps we can entice the English by offering one designed by their countrymen- Shark Catamarans!

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

EXCELLENT response

Unfortunaetly we in the UK get the impression that the RYA don't won't cats to go from the Olympics they are just forcing ISAFs hand (if their talk is anything to go by!!!)... DANGEROUS game. So like Pontious Pilate they expect the Cat (Jesus in the bible.... I AM NOT HERE COMPARING A CAT TO JESUS(just to be clear)) to be the peoples choice, unfortunately these things have a way of back firing IE my reference to Pontious Pilate.

Hope I haven't offended anyone in using this example but I can't think of a better example anywhere