Need some input from those more experienced than myself. I'm comparing a Blade 16 to a Nacra 17 with Jib kit. Important criteria: ease of righting, ease of stepping mast, pushing around on beach with catwheels. Also, concerned if these boats can sail well with up to 350 pounds of crew weight. Both can be rigged for 1 or 2 up sailing. Both have similiar sail plans, but Nacra mast is 2 feet taller. Blade is 80 pounds ligther. Any comparisons or issues you guys can add to this? Thanks.

80 lbs is a significant amount of extra weight to push over sand. Generally, Blade owners love their boats and F17 owners love theirs . They are both well proven designs. Your location and whether sailing with others of the same design is important to you should influence your decision. I'm not aware of any significant amount of racing of F17 two up.

They are both good boats. I have owned both.

Regarding the F17 jib-kit you mention: I have only seen the jib kit on an F17 once. I have only heard of the boat being seriously raced single-handed & unirig.

Regarding double-handed sailing: When it was blowing 15 mph I would double-hand the F17 with a friend. We were a little shy of 350 lbs. The boat went fine (caveat: we were doing this on an inland lake, not in big swells). The boat only had one trap, so only one of use could hang out. But if you are primarily interested in double-handed sailing, the F16 might be a better choice. Don't flame me, I said, "might."

Also, I have heard that the carbon mast is now an upgrade on the F17. Carbon used to be standard. Make sure you consider this when considering new versus used F17s and comparing prices.

For 2008 the F17 comes with the Infusion aluminum mast. This is a considerable cost savings. Also there is a new mainsail and spin cut.
[img]http://westlakesailingclub.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=56838[/img]

I think the F17 as a double hander with jib is an attractive option. On the F16 forum there is some discussion about a new class forming call "F104". F104 refers to the ISAF SCHRF rating for the class. I have seen pics of an FxOne with jib as a 2up that will fit into this class as well. Regarding the new F16 viper..I am wondering why they made it 275 lbs when the blade is 240. Perhaps this boat is targeted more for the F104 class than F16.. (Just speculating out loud..no daggers please)

[img]http://westlakesailingclub.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=56882[/img]

I think that having a 2up class for the FXone is good idea like the F16's have. It looks like Hobie Cat Europe wants it to go this way as well. The FXone handles weight really well. The jib kit comes with a second set of trap lines. Its a bit heavier than than the F16's at 325 lbs with a jib and spinnaker, but its a foot longer as well. It's slightly lighter than a Inter 17 and the Inter has a bigger sail to make up for it.

Here is my experience on all named boats ; I-17's, FX-ones and F16's

I summerize your wish list as :

Important criteria: ease of righting, ease of stepping mast, pushing around on beach with catwheels. Also, concerned if these boats can sail well with up to 350 pounds of crew weight.


First off the easy comparisons in bullet form :

-1- The I-17 (or whatever its name is) and F16 when both 1-up are pretty equal in performance.

-2- The I-17 1-up sailing is especially strong around the great lakes and if you are near to them then you must seriously consider this before choosing a boat type. In other parts of the USA or world the situation is alot more diverse and F16 appears to have the advantage there. FX-one is pretty much only represented in any significant way in Europe.

-2- The FX-one does indeed handle 2-up weight really well, in fact I feel that it handles 2-up crews and the sloop rig better then 1-up crews. (my personal experience, 50 hours of sailing in total)

-3- The F16's will come out on top on any of the criteria you specify, like ease of righting, ease of stepping mast and ease of pushing it about and lifting it on land. The weight difference being indeed 80 lbs or more in relation to the others.

-4- The F16's have seen significantly more development in their 2-up sloop configuration then the other two. Seeing 2-up I-27's and FX-one is rare. This is not a biggy but still ...


Most of the comment made already in this thread are excellent points.

Personally, I think that the I-17 will handle any condition just fine, including big swells or whatever on the oceans or seas. It has the freeboard for it.




This has been expressed through many channels and indeed must be true. Geoffs already mentioned that this is a serious consideration as well. Surprisingly enough, the F16 aluminium mast and the I-17 carbon mast were pretty much the same weight already. The infusion mast is heavier then both. You must expect to need at least 10 kg additional body weight on the righting line because of this change. Additional weight in the mast section quickly adds up in additonal weight needed to right the boat; the mast has just such a long leverage arm. You much rather have overweight hulls.

The FX-one mast is in my experience comparable to the F18 masts and probably a tad heavier then the Infusion mast as well. I have only been able to right the FX-one singlehanded, in 15 knots of wind, one single time. At the time I weight just under 90 kg = say 87 kg = 190 lbs. I wouldn't dream of righting that boat unaided in much less wind. In contrast I have righted my 121 kg homebuild Taipan F16 unaided every time I flipped it; and that includes all imaginable conditions from no winds to heavy winds. The only exception being that single event where my right arm had totally cramped up from fingers to shoulders. But even then, while hanging off the righting line with only my left arm, the boat was right by myself when the support boat lifted the tip of my mast to about 4 feet above the water. I understand that this is anecdotal evidence but this is the personal experience I have with these boats.


Personally I believe (on reading measurement reports) that the I-17 single handers are actually slightly lighter then the FX-one singlehander instead of the other way around.


As for weight carrying ability. All three will carry 350 lbs without bogging down too much. I've sailed the FX-one sloop 2-up at 330 lbs for quite a few hours and felt nowhere near its weight carrying limit. I have no experience with the I-17 in this respect. The F16's will carry 350 lbs quite well too. As a matter of fact an F16 at 107 kg and a 160 kg crew (352 lbs) is LESS loaded up per foot of hull length then the other two 17 foot alternatives. The difference, with 160 kg crews, is about 10% in favour of the F16 (note that none of these boats are exactly 16 or 17 foot in hull length).

So yes the F16 hulls may indeed look less volumious then the FX-one and I-17 but that is because it requires less volume per foot even when sailed by a heavy 160 kg (352 lbs) crew.

That is the mathematical side of the argument. The practical side is that plenty of F16's have been sailed heavy (meaning 150+ kg/330+lbs) and done well in races. This is of course a much stronger achievement then when just looking at weight carrying ability in a recreational sense. The most weight I put on my F16 was 210 kg (465 lbs), when I took two women (2*60 kg + my 90 kg) along on my 121 kg (267 lbs) homebuild Taipan F16. So basically I was putting 224 kg (=494 lbs) weight over the 107 kg F16 class minimum on my Taipan which is known as the least capable of carrying weight of all F16's. I was also using only my mainsail and spinnaker at the time and the winds were decent at about 12 knots.

The boat did loose some performance and sat deep in the water but I could still keep up with the various, fully rigged but recreationally sailed, Hobie 16's and such.

The newer F16's like the Blade carry weight MUCH better then my Taipan as my Taipan still has some significant V-shape to its keel line while the newer F16's (and the FX-one and I-17) are much rounder and fully in this area.

I have sailed the VWM Blade several times with my 90 kg frame and a skipper that is about 70 kg, totalling about 160 kg = 352 lbs and the boat went just fine. We could hold off F18's being sailed at similar weights and by at least similary skilled crews during an offical race/regatta ! We truly felt competitive at this overall weight.

I think I have covered all that I know from personal experience.

Good luck and the best of enjoyment with which ever boat type you decide upon.

Wouter

The reason to make the AHPC Viper F16 at 275 lbs is far more economic in nature then any other reason. The boat is fitted with parts of the Carpicorn F18. To give an example, its daggerboards we measured at the F16 Global challenge were just shy of 8 kg combined, while all other F16 daggerboard pairs came at or under 4 kg, again PER PAIR. My own AHPC made Taipan daggerboards were the heaviest of the others at 4 kg. The Stealth and Alter Cup Blade boards were respectively 3.4 and 3.6 per pair and we broke none during several days of heavy 20+ knots racing in very serious chop and swell. I think only 1 daggerboard out of 22 was broken during the Alter Cup 2007 event that was sailed in very similar strong conditions.

The Viper F16 had been on the drawing board before the idea of a F104 class was conceived in France.

I'm sure however that AHPC is now looking to service both possibilities with one single design and covering all the bases as such. But that was more a lucky coincidence then plan. Afterall the Viper needs to be build slightly heavier then 275 lbs to be F104 compliant. It is very close but not completely there yet.


In a more positive light however, the Viper F16 seems like a really capable design nevertheless. It held up really well in the chop and waves of the NAM-REM race regatta (75 boats attending) that was held right after the F16 Global challenge. It has the right amount of volume in its hulls and can be pushed very hard downwind under these conditions. And the conditions were indeed very trying. Personally I would love to see the Viper go down to 115 kg (255 lbs) if not 107 kg (240) but it appears to be a very capable racer even at 275 lbs (125 kg).

But this was not a real surprise to us at the F16 GC as we already knew that F16's do carry weight quite well. As in ;"they have a very flat dependency on carried crew weight". It is no real wonder then that some additional boat weight would make little difference. And that was the argument that Greg himself presented as well. Afterall, the 180 kg F18's go like stink as well, even when compared to 160 kg Tornado's and 120 kg M20's.

Wouter

Catsailor99,

Where do you live?

Bob Curry

Here is a picture of the F17 with wing mast and jib kit:

When I bought my Inter 17Rs and F17, they had the carbon mast. With the new wing mast, the price runs about $3000 US less than the F16s here in the US, from what I can find out. I have moved on from cat sailing, but having raced lots of single-handed cats since 1985 (18 Square, N5.5 Uni, A Class, F17), I loved the F17 best! The A Class was really fun upwind, frustrating downwind, fragile and a pain in the butt on the beach. It is so light, you cannot leave it unattended without dropping the sail and tying it down. The F17 could just be put into the wind, unhook the mainsheet and left. If I return to cat racing, it will be on the F17.

Is this accurate? A brand new F17 (racing set up) for $12K US?

Is this accurate? A brand new F17 (racing set up) for $12K US? [/quote]

Yes, absolutely true. Depending on the dealer, could be less. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Bob <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I don’t see any dagger/center boards or scags in that pic. What up wit dat? Are my eyes deceiving me?

Thanks Bob. Sorry to hear you've moved on from cat sailing. Is there a weight difference with the new mast? How does it compare with the overall change in weight of the I/F17 over the last few years? Do the AL mast boats race one design with the carbon masts? Any observed performance differences on the water? How much data is available so far?

Mark.

Open your eyes and the rest will follow! Yes, the daggers were all the way down in the pic. Can anyone guess who the skipper AND crew are??

Bob <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mark,
A test was conducted last Nov and the performances were found to be the same. Weight was not an issue. I can step the alum mast without any help. All boats race together. Answer all your questions? The boat ROCKS! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Bob <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

That is a great price. It is a very nice boat. I know the skipper (the glare from the bald head gave it away <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), but not the crew.

I also know the location, as the tanks in the background give it away.

Anyone know who submitted the design for those tanks?

Then you are a better man then we are over here as when we step that Infusion F18 mast we need two people and both hands to do it in any reliable way.

But of course we don't use any special structure or trailer mounted winches to do the job.

You can spin it around as much as you want but in the end of the day that infusion mast is nothing more then an F18 mast and it weights accordingly.

Wouter

Ok thanks Bob, though I'm still interested in knowing what the actual difference in weight is between the two masts. It would be interesting to know how Texel will rate these boats - if they decide to sell them in Europe. Is the carbon mast still an option and what is the cost difference? What is a typical spread in overall boat weights over say the last 5 years? (questions relevant to a separate discussion going on elsewhere).

Mark.

Tshan,

You can find some of the answers you are looking for at the Texel handicap system website :

http://www.watersportverbond.nl/content.asp?me_id=468%20

and in specific :

http://www.watersportverbond.nl/data/numdet_22-6-2007.pdf

and

http://www.watersportverbond.nl/data/F44_trtotal_22-6-2007.zip


Texel with rate both carbon and alu masted boats the same as it has no seperate input for mast material.


Wouter

Not me Wouter, MarkMT needs that info. Thanks for posting it for him.

I have the boat that fits my location, typical conditions and other "wants". <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />