Forum Index |  Albums |  Classified Ads |  Catamarans For Sale |  Calendar |  Submit Events
Announcements
New Discussions
Adding a Jib to a Mossie
by Gary Fleming. 12/07/17 11:29 PM
F101 finally in production
by Jake. 12/05/17 06:49 PM
Tradewinds Regatta?
by samc99us. 12/05/17 04:30 PM
Easy way to really learn the Racing Rules
by Mike Fahle. 11/28/17 07:30 AM
Dynema trap lines diameter?
by mmadge. 11/25/17 08:10 AM
foiling chasing UFO
by northsea junkie. 11/23/17 03:12 AM
New Mystere 4.3 in Central Florida
by Mike Fahle. 11/22/17 04:46 PM
36th America's Cup
by waterbug_wpb. 11/21/17 12:10 PM
Fatality During Clipper Race
by Redtwin. 11/20/17 07:56 AM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
#149958 - 07/28/08 09:16 AM Re: New Draft rule [Re: Jalani]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 432
Gato Offline
addict
Gato  Offline
addict

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 432
Finland
It seems that we killed the discussion once again by doing the things far to serious...
Still the F12 is for having fun, and most of the cats will be uswed to play around in the clubs like the Opti. Let's keep it at that, we make the rules simple. To hell with the winners, they don't play fair game anymore.
So, the A-class rules seems simple to me...

--Advertisement--
#149959 - 07/28/08 03:39 PM Re: New Draft rule [Re: Gato]  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


3rd draft is on its way, but I'm rather busy so may take some time. Don't worry Gato, there is another boat about to start in your backyard.

#149960 - 07/28/08 05:11 PM Re: New Draft rule [Re: Gato]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,333
JeffS Offline
veteran
JeffS  Offline
veteran

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,333
Kingston SE South Australia
I feel I've had my say Gato so now its just a matter of locking in the rules so people know what theyre building.
regards


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#149961 - 07/28/08 05:12 PM Re: New Draft rule [Re: Gato]  
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 951
ncik Offline
old hand
ncik  Offline
old hand

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 951
Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
Quote
...like the Opti.


Have you read the Opti rules? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> They are crazy complicated, right down to construction laminate details. Sometimes the simplest rules create the most complicated classes and the goal of a simple class requires the most complicated rules.

On that note, may I suggest another possible addition to the rules. A clause along the lines of "If it is not stated in these rules it is allowed/disallowed."

#149962 - 07/28/08 05:56 PM Re: New Draft rule [Re: ncik]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,305
Luiz Offline
veteran
Luiz  Offline
veteran

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,305
Asuncion, Paraguay
Quote


Have you read the Opti rules? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> They are crazy complicated, right down to construction laminate details. Sometimes the simplest rules create the most complicated classes and the goal of a simple class requires the most complicated rules.

On that note, may I suggest another possible addition to the rules. A clause along the lines of "If it is not stated in these rules it is allowed/disallowed."


The initial Optimist rules were simple and lasted for decades. They were rewritten with a high degree of detail when it became the (very strict) "International One Design Optimist". The text is strict because parents are compulsive when it comes to buying speed for their kids.

Today's F12 is a box rule, so there's no need to complicate anything and the rules can be very simple. Still, we should learn from the Optimist and try to eliminate possible loopholes. In view of this I prefer the suggested clause to be restrictive: "If it is not stated in these rules it is not allowed".


Luiz
#149963 - 07/28/08 06:21 PM Re: New Draft rule [Re: Luiz]  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Does anyone want to volunteer for the re-write? I'm happy to email the word document.

#149964 - 07/29/08 03:51 AM Re: New Draft rule [Re: Gato]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


I think we have made valuable headway with the current draft and I hate to see all that be thrown away by looking at another ruleset like the A-class. We have already progressed beyond the point where the A-class is in the way of class rules and in my opinion that is a good thing.

I would volunteer to do the draft writing Scarecrow, but we know what happened the last 3 times when I was responsible for that. The biggest advantage you provide is that no-one has a fixed mind about yout persona yet and that is huge benefit at this time. However, if help is much needed then I can do some ghost writing for you.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#149965 - 07/29/08 04:59 AM Re: New Draft rule [Re: Wouter]  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wouter its on its way. There is no need for people to get emotional. I believe if you leave the content but fix the wording everyone will be happy.

#149966 - 07/29/08 07:07 AM Re: New Draft rule [Re: ]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Alright !

Personally, I really like this F12 setup (and always have, since 2002) and I think it is a real pitty that I simply don't have any spare resources like money that I can invest in it. I got some spare time though so that'll invest !

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#149967 - 09/07/08 01:42 PM Re: New Draft rule [Re: Wouter]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 432
Gato Offline
addict
Gato  Offline
addict

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 432
Finland
It's about one month since last, any news?

#149968 - 09/07/08 11:28 PM Re: New Draft rule [Re: Gato]  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wouter said he'd finalise it and I sent the draft to him.....

If its not done soon I'll have to make time to get it done.

#149969 - 09/21/08 09:34 PM Re: New Draft rule [Re: ]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,305
Luiz Offline
veteran
Luiz  Offline
veteran

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,305
Asuncion, Paraguay
Quote
Wouter said he'd finalise it and I sent the draft to him.....

If its not done soon I'll have to make time to get it done.


Any news? I can help if necessary.


Luiz
#149970 - 09/21/08 11:15 PM Re: New Draft rule [Re: Luiz]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 432
Gato Offline
addict
Gato  Offline
addict

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 432
Finland
It would be really goog if we could get it done. Still there is not so long to wait now before we will have reached the number of ten...

#149971 - 09/22/08 04:02 PM Re: New Draft rule [Re: Gato]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,305
Luiz Offline
veteran
Luiz  Offline
veteran

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,305
Asuncion, Paraguay
Very soon, indeed. My daughter wants one. When will the Chinese Vudu become available?

Still, it doesn't hurt to have an initial rule to start with.


Luiz
#149972 - 09/22/08 09:38 PM Re: New Draft rule [Re: Luiz]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 432
Gato Offline
addict
Gato  Offline
addict

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 432
Finland
Exactly Luiz, and that was the reason why I was in favour for a simple set of rules to start with. There are people around here too who starts to ask difficult questions, like where you can buy one of these cool cats. One feels a little bit stupid telling them there is no such cat to buy, in fact itís not really decided yet what they should comply to.

#149973 - 09/24/08 08:59 AM Re: New Draft rule [Re: ]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


I got a little miffed last time I was (again) told to shut up. I haven't visited this forum since; must be 4 to 5 weeks indeed.

I confirm that Scarecrow had send me the word file and indeed, I was fully intent on working a set out and present it to you all within days. Then I got the "advice" described above in a thread that was dealing with a rule misconception. That pretty much tipped the scales for me. A guy started mouthing off about a rule change that was completely in error (he didn't read up on the progress so far) and I was told to shut up for pointing that out.

I needed only seconds to analyse the situation. For an effective class we need a more strict ruleset then the usual suspects on this forum are willing to accept or even discuss. When I point that out I get the usual abuse that many are so fond of dispensing. So, I'm insufficiently skilled to achieve succes in any other way and I don't really need anybody dissing me personally for their own failings. I'm sorry, but you can all go to hell if that is the only choice before me.

No, I don't need more then an evening to get a good F12 ruleset proposal, one that will be well balanced and provide a good foundation to base a potential succes on. That is not in any way the problem. The problem lies in the fact that I really don't feel much like having it put through the irrational wringer that is the F12 forum. I can predict what can happen already. Some Aussie will claim for the 10th time that the mossies are below 50 kg and ask why the smaller F12's will be heavier. When explained he will totally ignore the given explanation that platform weight is NOT the same as ready to sail weight and bitch that he still wants the craft to be lighter then a given weight that has no further association with what is really proposed. If I want to waste my time then I'll go and play some computer game and feel good afterwards for beating the computer !


Now what I can offer you all is a balanced ruleset that revolves around the following concepts :

Equalize drag and equalized drive through abstract rules that do not limit designers freedom in a severe way. No rules on details or materials. There will be a rule that limits the F12 to using only ONE sail in the rig without specifying its shape other then setting a max luff length and mast mast length (sail hoist height).

Balance the ruleset such that the same craft can be succesfully used by the older kids, teenagers and light to medium parents (1-up) and will be light and inexpensive.

It will not be a A-cat like open ruleset of only 4 rules, that will in my opinion only lead to a mini A-cat class that will be less performant but still cost almost the same. There is no market demand for such a class as the F14 project has shown. I will not provide such a class ruleset when asked, somebody else can burn his fingers on that, but I won't.


I too sick and tired of all the BS, bitching and other monkey behaviour to consider giving this class more then a single chance and this is it.

If you guys can find a concensus on the above principles and still want my help then I can present a good F12 rulebase within 24 hours. If not then please don't ever contact me again regarding your F12 class.

I will not came back reading these posts and you can all work it out yourselves. If you guys still want to make use of what I can offer then mail me at wouterhijink(AT)hotmail.com and I will deliver.

It is a selfprotection thing.

Regards,

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#149974 - 09/24/08 10:04 AM Re: New Draft rule [Re: Wouter]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 432
Gato Offline
addict
Gato  Offline
addict

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 432
Finland
Well, that clarified a lot. How do we proceed? Maybe Scarecrow and Luiz can knock something together? I know that you are busy, I can help, but Iím not much of a rule maker.

Last edited by Gato; 09/24/08 10:06 AM.
#149975 - 09/24/08 04:34 PM Re: New Draft rule [Re: Gato]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,305
Luiz Offline
veteran
Luiz  Offline
veteran

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,305
Asuncion, Paraguay
I read the following message:

Quote
Now what I can offer you all is a balanced ruleset that revolves around the following concepts:

Equalize drag and equalized drive through abstract rules that do not limit designers freedom in a severe way. No rules on details or materials. There will be a rule that limits the F12 to using only ONE sail in the rig without specifying its shape other then setting a max luff length and mast mast length (sail hoist height).

Balance the ruleset such that the same craft can be succesfully used by the older kids, teenagers and light to medium parents (1-up) and will be light and inexpensive.

If you guys can find a concensus on the above principles and still want my help then I can present a good F12 rulebase within 24 hours.



I believe Wouter can write a very good set of rules for the class. He's been in this from the begining, has previous experience writing this stuff and his not-so-kind composition style and bilateral arguments, although unpleasant, have nothing to do with the F12 class.

This is not a kindness contest: we are looking for a good set of rules, he already has them drafted in his head and offered to write them for us.

My vote is to take his offer, get done with it and follow to the next step. We still need to struggle with the by-laws.

Last edited by Luiz; 09/24/08 04:57 PM.
#149976 - 09/24/08 05:37 PM Re: New Draft rule [Re: Wouter]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,333
JeffS Offline
veteran
JeffS  Offline
veteran

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,333
Kingston SE South Australia
Stop being a primma donna Wouter, I had my say on what I thought, you gave it back to me in your usual style and someone else told you to shut up. No one gave you half as much as you give others. I shut up so that rules can be locked in and you can either do as you offered or wash your hands of the project AGAIN. If you dont want to do it Wouter I will do it so send them to me and I will modify the A Class rules to suit within 2 weeks.


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#149977 - 09/24/08 07:31 PM Re: New Draft rule [Re: Wouter]  
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Darryn Offline
addict
Darryn  Offline
addict

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
Quote



Some Aussie will claim for the 10th time that the mossies are below 50 kg and ask why the smaller F12's will be heavier. When explained he will totally ignore the given explanation that platform weight is NOT the same as ready to sail weight and bitch that he still wants the craft to be lighter then a given weight that has no further association with what is really proposed. If I want to waste my time then I'll go and play some computer game and feel good afterwards for beating the computer !


Now what I can offer you all is a balanced ruleset that revolves around the following concepts :

Equalize drag and equalized drive through abstract rules that do not limit designers freedom in a severe way. No rules on details or materials. There will be a rule that limits the F12 to using only ONE sail in the rig without specifying its shape other then setting a max luff length and mast mast length (sail hoist height).

Balance the ruleset such that the same craft can be succesfully used by the older kids, teenagers and light to medium parents (1-up) and will be light and inexpensive.

It will not be a A-cat like open ruleset of only 4 rules, that will in my opinion only lead to a mini A-cat class that will be less performant but still cost almost the same. There is no market demand for such a class as the F14 project has shown. I will not provide such a class ruleset when asked, somebody else can burn his fingers on that, but I won't.


I too sick and tired of all the BS, bitching and other monkey behaviour to consider giving this class more then a single chance and this is it.

If you guys can find a concensus on the above principles and still want my help then I can present a good F12 rulebase within 24 hours. If not then please don't ever contact me again regarding your F12 class.

I will not came back reading these posts and you can all work it out yourselves. If you guys still want to make use of what I can offer then mail me at wouterhijink(AT)hotmail.com and I will deliver.

It is a selfprotection thing.

Regards,

Wouter

Wouter,

I have had a good read of the F12 forum, cannot see where the Mozzie at 50kg was mentioned, Arrow and AC are used as comparisons often, perhaps you are confusing this topic with a question I asked on the F16 forum? Mozzies come in around 85kg on the water, for the 11th time <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Darryn
Mozzie
1782

Page 2 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
1 registered members (Chris9), 15 guests, and 316 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
corrinezhan, pussycatcatman, Shotsailor, PointDume, Winsto
7724 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Jake 6
Timbo 3
P.M. 2
Forum Statistics
Forums27
Topics22,268
Posts266,189
Members7,725
Most Online554
May 12th, 2017
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.011s Queries: 15 (0.002s) Memory: 0.9196 MB (Peak: 1.1741 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-12-13 17:03:36 UTC