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#170659 - 03/06/09 09:02 AM Regards to the sailing public  
Joined: Jan 2009
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Mysterio 6 Offline
newbie
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I came on rough in getaway thread and singled out the F`18 community.That was wrong.Any cat sailing is good sailing and there are enough regatta's at present to satisfy the sailing overall.The Getaway thread triggered a reaction that I have seen going on this thread for a very long time I think "Another Class" to Improve sailing interest.Rick has brought the Wave the simplest possible entry boat that has been succesfully absorbed.Would it not be better for the formula classes to decide(and I know it would'nt be formula then)to pick one design in each class and have it built by many boat manufacturers.It has become very complicated. Mysterio out!

-- Have You Seen This? --
#170670 - 03/06/09 10:04 AM Re: Regards to the sailing public [Re: Mysterio 6]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 548
Matt M Offline
addict
Matt M  Offline
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MERRITTISLAND, FL
I feel strongly that "another class" will have nothing to do with generating sailing interest. I can drive around withing 5 miles of my house and count 40+ cats sitting in yards etc. There are pleanty of boats - low cost boats out there such that no one can effectively use the cost excuse for not sailing. The key is to create events that people want to come to.

A lot of events have digressed to be purely about the racing as the more hard core racers are whats left in a lot of fleets and the fleets are the only ones putting on events. There is not much incentive for a new person to go to an event that is totaly if not mostly race oriented when they have to compete against people with 20+ years of racing under their belt. And it does not matter if they are on Waves or the latest carbon 20, they are going to be way at the back. Not many people are willing to endure that kind of learning curve without some other reason the attend.

As for setting 1 design... The laser and 49er have a design that is liscenced to several builders and the Tornado was an open design that anyone could build. The problem here is that if you wnated a "race" boat they all gravited to a single source. This kills the motivation of the other builders and effectively locks you back into a SMOD and for a global class that is very difficult as remote support becomes a challenge.

I build boats and from a manufacturers standpoint the formula concept sucks but given the nature of the sport at this time it is reallly the only viable alternative. From a saiors point of view I think it is an excellent concept.

#170671 - 03/06/09 10:08 AM Re: Regards to the sailing public [Re: Matt M]  
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ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Portland, Maine
Quote
A lot of events have digressed to be purely about the racing as the more hard core racers are whats left in a lot of fleets and the fleets are the only ones putting on events. There is not much incentive for a new person to go to an event that is totaly if not mostly race oriented when they have to compete against people with 20+ years of racing under their belt. And it does not matter if they are on Waves or the latest carbon 20, they are going to be way at the back. Not many people are willing to endure that kind of learning curve without some other reason the attend.


In EMSA, we tried to alleviate this perception with Catapalooza. I thought it was a success, hopefully we'll do it again this year!


#170678 - 03/06/09 10:40 AM Re: Regards to the sailing public [Re: ThunderMuffin]  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
xanderwess
Unregistered


The sentiment of events that are not designed only for hard core racers is the stance I am taking with the HCA during my tenure as Chair. My predeccesor is one of the top guys in our group, and a 'hard core' racer. His views differ from mine in that respect hense the reason I am doing whatever possible to align the HCA with the IWCA. I feel that racing is the reason we go, but the fact we're going to new and diffent places, eating different food, meeting interesting people and camping/hoteling with our friends and family is THE most important thing. The Wave, the 16, the getaway.....whatever. Widget. Hey, I ranked 41st (I think) in the 16 class, my 9 year is proud as hell of that. But my kids talk about the time we stopped at Niagra Falls (on the way to the 16 NAC in NY) as their favorite thing, and seeing the Memorial in OKC, and the time that we had the luau at the regatta where we all wore grass skirts and had poi.......
THIS is the reason we are trying to make the Wave more mainstream with the HCA- more family involvment, a boat that is more easily accessible (cost and ability to sail wise) and more overall attendance at events.
Just thought I'd toss all that out

#170684 - 03/06/09 10:54 AM Re: Regards to the sailing public [Re: Matt M]  
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David Ingram Offline
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Clermont, FL, USA
Club races are very fun and relaxed affairs and are great for new sailors.

For example the SC45 tomorrow. There are two courses for the two groups you are talking about.

If you want something less racing focused... then build it... Catapolooza for example.

These things are out there... and to say the're not... that aint right.

Last edited by David Ingram; 03/06/09 12:53 PM. Reason: Because I'm a tard

David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
#170685 - 03/06/09 11:05 AM Re: Regards to the sailing public [Re: ]  
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 331
mmadge Offline
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mmadge  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 331
Thunder Bay ON CAN
smile

Last edited by mmadge; 03/06/09 12:20 PM.
#170687 - 03/06/09 11:10 AM Re: Regards to the sailing public [Re: Matt M]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Mugrace72 Offline
old hand
Mugrace72  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Originally Posted by Matt M

A lot of events have digressed to be purely about the racing as the more hard core racers are whats left in a lot of fleets and the fleets are the only ones putting on events. There is not much incentive for a new person to go to an event that is totaly if not mostly race oriented when they have to compete against people with 20+ years of racing under their belt. And it does not matter if they are on Waves or the latest carbon 20, they are going to be way at the back. Not many people are willing to endure that kind of learning curve without some other reason the attend.



The best event that we have been to since returning to sailing was the Hagar regatta that fleet 45 put on. It was just plain FUN. We had a nice distance race, great party (actually 2) and a fun sail on Sunday. There were folks on all kinds on cats, from H16 to I20 and even the prototype (F..con F16)!....all just having a great time.

We are semi-hard core but probably with the wrong boat for now.

I love to race in big fleets but this kind of regatta is what brings in the Sunday Sailors.

Catapalooza missed the mark because not much really happened I think. Just my opinion, and perhaps it will get better.

Bottom line....it's not the boat or class, it's the venue and camaraderie.



Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
#170690 - 03/06/09 11:15 AM Re: Regards to the sailing public [Re: Mugrace72]  
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pgp Offline
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We're seeing steady growth at GYC, to the point that we need to put in some new anchors to accomodate the boats. I don't think any of the new arrivals are Hobies, and that's sad! They would be most welcome, as are all sailors.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

#170697 - 03/06/09 11:44 AM Re: Regards to the sailing public [Re: ThunderMuffin]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,278
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Originally Posted by Undecided
Quote
A lot of events have digressed to be purely about the racing as the more hard core racers are whats left in a lot of fleets and the fleets are the only ones putting on events. There is not much incentive for a new person to go to an event that is totaly if not mostly race oriented when they have to compete against people with 20+ years of racing under their belt. And it does not matter if they are on Waves or the latest carbon 20, they are going to be way at the back. Not many people are willing to endure that kind of learning curve without some other reason the attend.


In EMSA, we tried to alleviate this perception with Catapalooza. I thought it was a success, hopefully we'll do it again this year!



We most definitely will. I don't have much time to start planning until after the Tybee. We got some terrific support on short notice last year - this year we hope to put a little more structure to it now that we have an idea about what we're doing.


Jake Kohl
#170698 - 03/06/09 11:59 AM Re: Regards to the sailing public [Re: Jake]  
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ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Portland, Maine
Jake, this year we should invite some of the college sailing programs around to bring some members out.

#170700 - 03/06/09 12:45 PM Re: Regards to the sailing public [Re: ThunderMuffin]  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
xanderwess
Unregistered


When you say members, you mean hot college cheerleaders, right?

#170701 - 03/06/09 12:46 PM Re: Regards to the sailing public [Re: ]  
Joined: Jan 2008
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ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
ThunderMuffin  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,654
Portland, Maine
No. They can't pull high-loaded sheets.


#170702 - 03/06/09 12:55 PM Re: Regards to the sailing public [Re: ThunderMuffin]  
Joined: Jun 2001
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David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
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Posts: 3,904
Clermont, FL, USA
Are you gay!? For the record they don't have to be cheerleaders they just have to dress like one.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
#170703 - 03/06/09 12:58 PM Re: Regards to the sailing public [Re: David Ingram]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,654
ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
ThunderMuffin  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2008
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Portland, Maine
Not last time I checked. The wife has been gone a lot recently though frown


#170704 - 03/06/09 01:03 PM Re: Regards to the sailing public [Re: ThunderMuffin]  
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David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
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Clermont, FL, USA
I'll tell her you said hi.

Aren't Friday's great!

Last edited by David Ingram; 03/06/09 01:04 PM.

David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
#170705 - 03/06/09 01:12 PM Re: Regards to the sailing public [Re: David Ingram]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,654
ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
ThunderMuffin  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2008
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Portland, Maine
You get her bills too!

$175k in med school bills and COUNTING!


#170706 - 03/06/09 01:12 PM Re: Regards to the sailing public [Re: mmadge]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,095
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Posts: 3,095
Annapolis, MD
Matt wrote:
Quote

A lot of events have digressed to be purely about the racing as the more hard core racers are whats left in a lot of fleets and the fleets are the only ones putting on events. There is not much incentive for a new person to go to an event that is totaly if not mostly race oriented when they have to compete against people with 20+ years of racing under their belt. And it does not matter if they are on Waves or the latest carbon 20, they are going to be way at the back.


ChrisW wrote
Quote
The sentiment of events that are not designed only for hard core racers is the stance I am taking with the HCA during my tenure as Chair. My predeccesor is one of the top guys in our group, and a 'hard core' racer. His views differ from mine in that respect hense the reason I am doing whatever possible to align the HCA with the IWCA. I feel that racing is the reason we go, but the fact we're going to new and diffent places, eating different food, meeting interesting people and camping/hoteling with our friends and family is THE most important thing. The Wave, the 16, the getaway.....whatever. Widget


Hmm... How do you harmonize the two mindsets in the same event? I don't think you should waste a lot of energy on this.

When CRAC was formed... a choice had to be made and when we looked around and could not find an individual willing to run the social/casual racing agenda... we thought we better be clear on the mission... thus catamaran RACING association of the chesapeake... We followed the lead of CRAM, CRAB, CRAW, OCRA. The R is for racing and all are still working on their core mission of creating racing events.

I don't know of many low key catamaran SAILING clubs.

On the Chesapeake Bay, The Tuesday Night Club WRCRA started out as a classic open class low key fleet of old boats... but now it's a fleet of A cats, F16's and Nacra 20's. A recreational sailor with an old boat attempting to race these guys has a tough time now. The Hobie Classes in Division 11 are run by racers who have no interest in running a beach party at the expense of their racing. They are not scheduling two short races and the rest of the day is scheduled for a beach party! The B and C fleet racing groups are very very small and the event they attend is their one event a year.

The weekend regatta circuit is fueled by racers who go one design racing and if they need a bit more... join a portsmouth race on the next weekend.. A recreational sailor dipping their toe in the water just doesn't fit the scene. Designing an event that is not focused on the hard core racer won't do it for the recreational sailor and the racer always likes a great party anyway.

My mast up storage MARINA has mostly recreational sailors and they have NO interest in organizing a beach party among themselves... If the breeze is good and several families happen to show up... we share the beer and fire in the barbeque grills. Organized club events are just not needed.

I think trying to manipulate things that put the two groups of people together at a single event is the wrong focus. Rather I think you need to build a club with mast up storage that can find a balance for racing and recreation. You need to get the old race boat out from the weeds in the back yard to the club. The guys with old boats who used to race would enjoy a club race now and again. The recreational sailors would like to see the more experienced sailors and go sailing with them when the wind is up and so on. Sandy Hook Bay seems to do a good job with 150 boats, of mostly recreational sailors and a racing program that runs the Statue, a Hobie Points Regatta and a club racing series for 20 or so racers.

I think it's great that Chris is working on harmonizing the Wave racers and the HCA schedule... But that is not going to shift the emphasis of the HCA away from serious OD racing. My hope springs eternal that next he will harmonize the Tiger and Wildcat OD fleets.... Followed up by including the rest of the F18's.... then.... the rest of the catamaran racing world... wink




crac.sailregattas.com
#170707 - 03/06/09 01:13 PM Re: Regards to the sailing public [Re: David Ingram]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 915
H17cat Offline
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Posts: 915
Issaquah, WA, USA
At Sail Sand Point in Seattle, www.sailsandpoint.org, we have scheduled three Fast and Fun free sailing programs for this year. See http://www.ussailing.org/multihull/fast&fun.htm

Dates are:
April 25, at Sail Sand Point, Seattle, "North Shore Spring Celebration."
June 20, Downtown Kirkland, "Day on the Lake"
June 21, Mercer Island, Luther Burbank Park.

Volunteers will skipper our Waves for the Event. This year we have also added our new fleet of Hobie Cat Kayaks.

Caleb Tarleton

#170711 - 03/06/09 01:39 PM Re: Regards to the sailing public [Re: H17cat]  

**DONOTDELETE**
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xanderwess
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Undecided: When you say 'loaded sheets' you mean something else entirely right?

Mark S.: No harmonizing is really intended. I believe that if people that don't feel comfortable on a Tiger or even a 16, and want to come and do what the other racers are doing, the Wave might present an answer. That's all. Nothing more. The HCA is afterall, a racing organization. I just don't think that the racing is all that matters when you're spending you scarce discresionary $$ for you and the kids to have a fun weekend at ##### Beach for the weekend.

Last edited by xanderwess; 03/06/09 01:41 PM.
#170714 - 03/06/09 01:59 PM Re: Regards to the sailing public [Re: ]  
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ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
ThunderMuffin  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

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Portland, Maine
Quote
Undecided: When you say 'loaded sheets' you mean something else entirely right?


I'm not even gonna touch that one !! :P


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