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Re: Cowes [Re: scooby_simon] #236105
08/11/11 06:45 AM
08/11/11 06:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,296
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by scooby_simon
I've lookat this a lot and my view is that they did not have cat sailors on the jury and so did not ask some crucial questions....

1, Sp; you chose to Duck, whay was that
-> Expected answer / reading between the lines - it was the tactical option
2, Why was the jib eased early, before the rudders had gripped and the bear off started
-> Opps we fecked up; cats don't work like that
3, Why did you not dump the traveller quickly; you know these bats do not bear off well
-> Opps we fecked up
4, Why did you not dump more mainsail when attempting to bear off
-> Opps we fecked up
5, Why did you not tack as these boats are difficult to bear off
-> as stated the tactical opt..... Opps we fecked up....

The esecond they chose to bear off they were in trouble; maybe because they are not as "auto experienced" as some cat sailors KNOWING that you dump the main and start to bear off and once the rudders have gripped you dump the jib; maybe they were too dialied into the tactical options and made a bad call.

IF the rudders had not stalled they would have avoided them; if they had tacked they would have avoided them. IF they has sailed the boat properly they would ahve avoided them.





I've pondered that myself. I do believe that it was possible to execute that duck manuever and avoid Artemis if it was carried out more precisely...but, then I fall back to why do all these "ifs" come into play in the first place? Artemis made an "iffy" move and it appeared to me that the other boat made an honest effort to avoid them...and this is really what it boils down to. Not only is enough evidence not usually available but Juries will often lack the experience to say whether or not the steps to avoid the indecent were precise - now you get into grading the ability of someone to sail their boat. The decision has to stay simple; i.e....did they make an honest effort to avoid the collision?

They sure did have that protest flag ready though...wink wink.


Jake Kohl
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Cowes [Re: Mark Schneider] #236107
08/11/11 07:00 AM
08/11/11 07:00 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline OP
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Kris Hathaway  Offline OP
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Quote
What latitude does a class have to amend the RRS within the class?


Sections 86-88 discuss Changes to The Racing Rules


Kris Hathaway
Re: Cowes [Re: Kris Hathaway] #236109
08/11/11 07:10 AM
08/11/11 07:10 AM
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pgp Offline
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Thanks Kris. A quick look tells me we can do pretty much whatever we want.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Cowes [Re: pgp] #236110
08/11/11 07:24 AM
08/11/11 07:24 AM
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Rock Hill,SC
KevinRejda Offline
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KevinRejda  Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
What latitude does a class have to amend the RRS within the class?

Did you miss these Pete?

86.1c Class rules may change only racing rules 41,49,50,51,52,53,and 54.

86.1a places limits on what a "National Authority" may change. I would suggest more than a "quick glance"


Kevin Rejda
Rock Hill, SC

Re: Cowes [Re: pgp] #236111
08/11/11 07:30 AM
08/11/11 07:30 AM
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Open an account over at http://www.sailx.com/, do some races and file some protests.
It is by far the best way to learn about the rules, rules dont just apply when something goes wrong, they always apply even if might not realise it.

Re: Cowes [Re: Jake] #236112
08/11/11 07:41 AM
08/11/11 07:41 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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From SA.
Artemis might have been ahead, but GE/Rothschild was in the tactically controlling position. Essentially being pinned by GE/Rothschild, Artemis really only had three options (without breaking the rules):

Pinch/luff hard and try to force GE/Rothschild to start ducking them (GE/Rothschild cannot go inside within the zone) [In hindsight this was probably the preferred option];

Wait for GE/Rothschild to tack before tacking themselves and follow them around the mark (from above the layline); or

Bear away before tacking and again follow GE/Rothschild's around the mark (from behind).

Instead they went for 4. (tack anyway) and, as a result, fouled GE/Rothschild.


The would of... could of... should of (tack or execute the duck flawlessly) of GE ARE MISSING THE POINT....

Art was leading but not winning... If you think you have wiggle room in this situation ....you will naturally push the line. They did and lost...

Tackers Don't have wiggle room.... Tackers have to KNOW they are not going to foul before they tack.
This is a simple rule. ... The language describing it can't be simpler either.

Debating the... would of, could of and should have of GE tend to take the spot light off of Art.

Not flagging racers who do this, (often unknowingly based on the reaction to this thread) and get away with it muddies the bright line and will lead to bad collisions.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Cowes [Re: KevinRejda] #236117
08/11/11 07:59 AM
08/11/11 07:59 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline OP
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Originally Posted by KevinRejda

86.1c Class rules may change only racing rules 41,49,50,51,52,53,and 54.

86.1a places limits on what a "National Authority" may change. I would suggest more than a "quick glance"


How do you interpret 86.1b?


Kris Hathaway
Re: Cowes [Re: Kris Hathaway] #236120
08/11/11 08:10 AM
08/11/11 08:10 AM
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pgp Offline
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(b) Sailing instructions may change a racing rule, but not rule 76.1, Appendix F, or a rule listed in rule 86.1(a). However, the sailing
instructions may change to ‘two’ or ‘four’ the number of
hull lengths determining the zone around marks, provided that
the number is the same for all marks and all boats using those
marks. If the sailing instructions change a rule or that definition,
they shall refer specifically to the rule or definition and
state the change.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Cowes [Re: Kris Hathaway] #236121
08/11/11 08:14 AM
08/11/11 08:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,113
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Kris..
Nobody can change part 1 and 2.. (everything discussed here)
The NA can change some things.
The OA can change fewer things
The Class can change even fewer things.

Nobody is changing the game of sailing.... It's like changing baseball on deciding that you run the bases ... third to second to first to home. That is not baseball

ps... have your judge check your F16 NOR/SI's.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Cowes [Re: Kris Hathaway] #236123
08/11/11 08:20 AM
08/11/11 08:20 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 127
Rock Hill,SC
KevinRejda Offline
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KevinRejda  Offline
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Rock Hill,SC
Originally Posted by Kris Hathaway
Originally Posted by KevinRejda

86.1c Class rules may change only racing rules 41,49,50,51,52,53,and 54.

86.1a places limits on what a "National Authority" may change. I would suggest more than a "quick glance"


How do you interpret 86.1b?


86.1a prohibits change to Definitions; a rule in the Introduction; Sportsmanship and the Rules; Parts 1, 2, or 7; Rule 42, 69, 70, 71, 75, 76.2, 79, or 80; a rule of an appendix that changes one of these rules; Appendix H or N; or ISAF Regulation 19, 20, 21, or 22.

All of this qualified by 86.1 A racing rule shall not be changed unless permitted in the rule itself or as follows:


Kevin Rejda
Rock Hill, SC

Re: Cowes [Re: KevinRejda] #236124
08/11/11 08:25 AM
08/11/11 08:25 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline OP
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Got it. Thanks Kevin.

I hate it when rules refer back to their own sections that refer to other sections.....Should have drunk my coffee first LOL.

Last edited by Kris Hathaway; 08/11/11 08:37 AM.

Kris Hathaway
Re: Cowes [Re: scooby_simon] #236129
08/11/11 09:01 AM
08/11/11 09:01 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 806
Hillsborough, NC USA
I
Isotope235 Offline
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Isotope235  Offline
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I
Joined: Nov 2005
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Hillsborough, NC USA
Originally Posted by scooby_simon
I've lookat this a lot and my view is that they did not have cat sailors on the jury and so did not ask some crucial questions....

Not having been present, I have no way of knowing for sure what was said or not said in the protest hearing. However, I'm sure both teams have members who are just as knowledgeable about the rules as any of us. If Artemis thought such questions were important, they'd have been foolish not to ask them. It's also a mistake to assume that the jury is not familiar with the boats. The US Sailing Judges Manual states (in section 3.3 - Composition of a Protest Committee): "Every PC member should be qualified as to rules knowledge, racing and race management experience and personal characteristics. ... An ideal PC will have one member who is particularly familiar with the type of boat being raced...". US Sailing and ISAF are very sensitive to this need. They've gone so far as to stipulate that at certain level events, at least one of the jury members be an active racer familiar with the boats. I've had to fill out racing experience questionaires. Given the nature of this event, I'd be very surprised if the jury wasn't quite knowledgable about Extreme 40 boathandling.

Regards,
Eric

Re: Cowes [Re: Mark Schneider] #236130
08/11/11 09:05 AM
08/11/11 09:05 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 806
Hillsborough, NC USA
I
Isotope235 Offline
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Mark,

Well said.

Regards,
Eric
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
The would of... could of... should of (tack or execute the duck flawlessly) of GE ARE MISSING THE POINT....

Art was leading but not winning... If you think you have wiggle room in this situation ....you will naturally push the line. They did and lost...

Tackers Don't have wiggle room.... Tackers have to KNOW they are not going to foul before they tack.
This is a simple rule. ... The language describing it can't be simpler either.

Debating the... would of, could of and should have of GE tend to take the spot light off of Art.

Not flagging racers who do this, (often unknowingly based on the reaction to this thread) and get away with it muddies the bright line and will lead to bad collisions.

Re: Cowes [Re: Mark Schneider] #236131
08/11/11 09:07 AM
08/11/11 09:07 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
What latitude does a class have to amend the RRS within the class?


None.... but you could always try to learn the ones the rest of us use.


That is an ad hominem fallacy, as you well know.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Cowes [Re: pgp] #236139
08/11/11 09:51 AM
08/11/11 09:51 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 127
Rock Hill,SC
KevinRejda Offline
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KevinRejda  Offline
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Rock Hill,SC
Originally Posted by pgp
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
What latitude does a class have to amend the RRS within the class?


None.... but you could always try to learn the ones the rest of us use.


That is an ad hominem fallacy, as you well know.


I don't know Pete. Your statement "Thanks Kris. A quick look tells me we can do pretty much whatever we want." points up your lack of understanding of the rules. There is actually little you can do. Mark's comment might sting, but appears to be accurate, at least in this instance. An ad hominem attack involves truths or untruths that are aimed at the individual but irrelevant to the topic at hand. Suggesting you learn the rules that the rest of us use is completely relevant.


Kevin Rejda
Rock Hill, SC

Re: Cowes [Re: KevinRejda] #236141
08/11/11 10:04 AM
08/11/11 10:04 AM
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pgp Offline
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I'm satisfied with my understanding of the rules. I've never hit anyone and never been protested, iirc. Do I engage in "gamesmanship" occassionally? Yes.

Have I been blatantly fouled by sailors who should have known better? ABSOLUTELY! And there are is at least one witness who posts here daily.

I have a concern about the current rules and I've identified a simple remedy. I have passed along both to an officer of my class. Will any action be taken? I've no idea but I'm satisified I've done my part in making sailing a little better.

My objection to the ad hominem fallacy stands. We'd have been better off without it.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Cowes [Re: brucat] #236144
08/11/11 10:18 AM
08/11/11 10:18 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
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Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
bobcat Offline
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Quote
or prepare to go around everyone else at every boat-on-boat situation. That should keep you out of the room...



Isn't that what GE did? Even while they were the stand-on boat?
They tried to duck a boat that recognized its own burdened position and therefore slowed down to let GE pass clear ahead. They tacked and then waited to accelerate? Don't you hate it when a starboard boat unsure of the rules bears off to duck you as you bear off to duck them?

Yeah, I know you were being ironical.



F16 Blade 716
Re: Cowes [Re: pgp] #236145
08/11/11 10:21 AM
08/11/11 10:21 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844
42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
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Let's get back to the event for a second.

Their mains were reefed! To me, that equals trying to keep the boat under control of the skip/crew in the conditons.

Perhaps Art. should have also considered that before tacking relativley close to G. If they were going slower, no reef, etc., Less room in needed.

If this was brought up already, SIA.

-Todd B.


F-18 Infusion
#626- SOLD it!

'Long Live the Legend of Chris Kyle'
Re: Cowes [Re: pgp] #236146
08/11/11 10:36 AM
08/11/11 10:36 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 127
Rock Hill,SC
KevinRejda Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
You could simply prohibit port tackers from sailing into the circle.


This is your suggested change to the rules? This isn't a case of a crazy coming in on port against a starboard tacker, it is about whether A tacked too close or not. What if this incident had occurred in the middle of the course? If I am leeward boat (on the same tack) and you plan to tack accross my bow, you'd better make sure you can make it without fouling me. If we are both on starboard and you're tacking to port, you gotta stay clear of my path. If we are both on port and you tack to starboard, you gotta give me "room and opportunity." That is all this is about. A had GE pinned on port tack until an opportunity for GE to tack into the clear becomes available.


Kevin Rejda
Rock Hill, SC

Re: Cowes [Re: KevinRejda] #236152
08/11/11 10:58 AM
08/11/11 10:58 AM
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pgp Offline
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I haven't suggested any rules changes. Whatever conversations I've had within my class are private.

"If I am leeward boat (on the same tack) and you plan to tack accross my bow, you'd better make sure you can make it without fouling me. " Or what?





Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

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