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#37408 - 08/27/04 12:56 AM Righting Pole with Righting Line  
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 106
Danno Offline
member
Danno  Offline
member

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 106
NW Washington
Hi!

I've done a lot of research about righting a cat. Never had to right one yet. Maybe because I've never sailed one?

Anyway, I'm planning on putting a righting pole on my nacra 450 before I go out. It may or may not be necessary, but I want to be prepared. I'll take it out and practice capsize recovery.

First off, I need to capsize. I may be solo. Could I do that in waist deep water somehow? I tested the mast for leaks the other day. No bubbles.

Back to the righting pole installation. Planning on getting a 5/8" universal joint tiller extension, like a Ronstan RF1127 or RWO r0851. I'll post a pic of it here. They're stainless and cost about $15. I'd mount that to the front beam near the dolphin striker, then connect an extension pole to it instead of a tiller extension. I've got an aluminum extension pole for that.

I'd have this pole bolted to the u-joint and bungied up under the tramp. After capsize, I'd throw my righting line up over the high hull, run it through an eye or block mounted on the end of the pole, unbungie and swing the pole out. The u-joint would allow the pole to then swing up closer to the upper hull for more leverage. Tie the end of line to the mast or dolphin striker; someplace to keep me from swinging back into the hull like on a swingset. Hang on the end. If I need more leverage, I could extend the telescoping section and pay out some line.

I don't think I'd need a real beefy u-joint or pole for that matter. The pole would be under compression with near zero torque on the u-joint.

How does this look to you?

Cheers,
Danno

Attached Files
37417-ronstan RF1127.jpg (158 downloads)

Danno
-- Have You Seen This? --
#37409 - 08/27/04 04:47 AM Re: Righting Pole with Righting Line [Re: Danno]  
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 324
SOMA Offline
enthusiast
SOMA  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 324
South Florida
give it a try Danno. The pole will not be under straight compression like a column would. With one end of the pole attached to the dolphin striker and the other end being pulled down by your weight, the pole will want to bend at the center. I tried this with a closet pole to test the system and the pole nearly snapped on the first try. Then I tried it with an aluminum mast from an Optimist, and it worked (except that the pole needed to be longer). I finally came across an old H16 boom, and that is what I have now, although it is huge, heavy and cumbersome to have attached under the tramp. When I have a moment, I will get a 1.75" diameter aluminum tube x about 8 feet in length and use this. I don't think a tiller extension will work. I think it will bend in the middle, especially if it is a telescoping one.
The drag chute that Bill spoke about seems like a great and simple idea, although i'm sure that in light winds it is comletely useless.


Fred F (ex Hobie 18)
#37410 - 08/27/04 06:49 AM Re: Righting Pole with Righting Line [Re: SOMA]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,279
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,279
South Carolina
Try looking for a used fiberglass windsurfer mast to use too. It needs to be able to handle quite a bit of load.


Jake Kohl
#37411 - 08/27/04 07:30 AM Re: Righting Pole with Righting Line [Re: Danno]  
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 8
mikeleg Offline
stranger
mikeleg  Offline
stranger

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 8
Danno,

I just finished installing a righting pole on my Nacra 5.5. I used a windsurfing mast and universal joint. In my opinion, installing the pole was not worth the effort. It did not allow me to right my cat solo, and it was only slightly more effective than a righting line thrown over the top hull. I used an 8 foot pole, and perhaps a 9-10' pole would have worked better, but I don't want 2' of pole sticking out the back of my cat. I only weigh 140 lbs, so perhaps the pole will work better for you.

Mike

#37412 - 08/27/04 08:08 AM Re: Righting Pole with Righting Line [Re: Danno]  
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
RickWhite Offline
RickWhite  Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
Why not just buy an existing, workable product? Check it out at www.onlinemarinestore.com
Story on it at http://www.catsailor.com/power_righter.html

and installation instructions at
http://www.catsailor.com/pole-install.html

Good luck,
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
#37413 - 08/27/04 08:27 AM Righting Pole myths [Re: Danno]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 885
David Parker Offline
old hand
David Parker  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 885
Dunedin Causeway, FL
Danno,

You have a disease called "analysis paralysis". Stop thinking and get the boat in the water. Experience will teach you what you need. Just go sailing...a lot! Be aggressive, be fearless. Worst case? You'll get wet.

You don't need a pole. A N450 is under 15 feet and should be trivial to right with just a line. Sail with crew the first few times to learn about righting technique. Sail in deep water (swimming, not standing). Sail HARD and recklessly and you'll flip, no problem. Don't worry, embrace the situation, laugh a lot with your crew, and sort out how to do it. Then figure it out solo. It will be easy on your boat.

By the way, that photo doesn't look like a universal joint, just a hinge. I used a H14 gooseneck...cheap & plentiful. I'll add a photo of my system if you need it. But you don't.

The pole does NOT have to handle quite a bit of load. It only allows you to pull a righting line from further out from the hulls. If used correctly, you hang on the pole out where the line connects, you NEVER hang on the middle. You can break anything if used incorrectly (I've sat on a dozen aluminum tiller extentions). Try using a Sunfish spar. It's T6061, light yet strong, and can be found cheap because they often break at the gooseneck at the 11 foot mark (plenty left for your use).

David

#37414 - 08/27/04 11:02 AM Re: Righting Pole with Righting Line [Re: Danno]  
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
RickWhite Offline
RickWhite  Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
The last reply is quite correct.
First of all, you do not need a pole. While nice, we did without a pole for years and years. Just a line attached to your mast, thrown over the hull and to the sailors on the hull in the water.
Best technique is to get the bows pointed toward the wind as much as possible (usually 45 degrees is pretty good) and then lean out at 45 degrees. Should come up pretty quick. Be sure to grab the hull your standing on.

To ascertain you can right the boat, try righting the boat on dry land.
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
#37415 - 08/27/04 11:04 AM Re: Righting Pole myths [Re: David Parker]  
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 241
jfint Offline
enthusiast
jfint  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 241
Simi Valley, CA
I'm with David I really see no need for you to have a pole, I have righted a 5.7 by myself and of course my 5.2. I think david has it right, pick a day with moderate and get that bad boy sailing. :-)


Josh Fint Prindle 19 "Accident Prone" Moro Bay Sailing
#37416 - 08/27/04 07:31 PM Re: Righting Pole myths [Re: jfint]  
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 106
Danno Offline
member
Danno  Offline
member

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 106
NW Washington
Thanks, everybody.

Glad to hear it doesn't take a righting pole. Didn't know that, so wanted to be safe. I'll do as suggested without a pole and file the research away for a bigger cat. Or like Rick says, just buy his pole.

Other particulars:

The pic really is a u-joint. I had to verify it myself. Bad picture.

Pole compression. You're right. Looks like there would be some side forces involved. There's a 3/4" u-joint for $35. That's already about half the cost of Rick's setup w/o the pole. Plus his comes with the rest of the hardware, etc.

Righting on land. Sounds like a plan this evening.

I'll be out early tomorrow morning on the lake.

Have a good weekend sailing,
Danno


Danno
#37417 - 08/28/04 10:56 AM Re: Righting Pole myths [Re: Danno]  
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 106
Danno Offline
member
Danno  Offline
member

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 106
NW Washington
Hmm...

Just got in from capsizing in the backyard. Tried to right it without the weight of sails and the tip of the mast would raise off the ground a few inches with some jerking on my part. I had bungied a 5 gal bucket of water to the tip of the mast to simulate the 20# of dry sails plus wetted weight. But I couldn't get it far enough to lift the bail of the bucket. So I hauled the bucket from the mast to right next to my righting line. Grabbed the line with one hand and lifted the bucket with the other. Started coming up okay then.

Not sure if righting in water will require less or more force. Unless I'm doing something wrong, seems like a righting bag would be in order. I'll look into getting an army surplus duffle bag or something that could hold 15 gallons or so.

Cheers,
Danno

PS: Pic included

Attached Files

Danno
#37418 - 08/28/04 05:50 PM Re: Righting Pole myths [Re: Danno]  
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 591
Sycho15 Offline
addict
Sycho15  Offline
addict

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 591
Bradenton, FL
The bucket of water hanging off the very end of your mast exhibits much more force than the weight of sails evenly distributed along the length of the mast. Also, with the bows facing into the wind and the mainsail pulled to center, the sails should help lift the mast out of the water.


G-Cat 5.7M #583 (sail # currently 100) in Bradenton, FL Hobie 14T
#37419 - 08/28/04 06:30 PM Re: Righting Pole myths [Re: Sycho15]  
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 106
Danno Offline
member
Danno  Offline
member

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 106
NW Washington
Good point Brian. I just got back from the lake. Stuck the cat in the water w/o sails, went out about thigh deep and capsized. Got it up fairly easily w/ just the line over the hull. Will it be easier or harder with sails? Should find out tomorrow.

I've heard 2 different ways to sheet the mainsail when righting. One, to let it out, so the sail will dump any water as it comes up. Two, like you said, sheet in and let the wind help the sail up.

The most difficult time was stepping the mast. I'd done it only in my backyard, both on and off trailer. Little problem walking it up from stern to bow, climbing up a 3 steps of a 4-step step ladder when it's trailered.

At the boat launch today, I parked bow down on a very gentle slope in the parking lot. The trailer and car must have been on different slopes, cuz the tramp was about 6" higher from the ground than when in my yard. It was really precarious walking up that extra step of the ladder with the mast on my shoulder. Would have been much better with wider steps.

Cheers,
Danno


Danno
#37420 - 08/28/04 06:54 PM Re: Righting Pole myths [Re: Danno]  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
I have never seen anybody climb up a stepladder to raise a mast, and I am trying to visualize it. Where do you put the stepladder? Is it on the ground or on the trampoline or what? Please send pictures. It sounds kind of dangerous.

#37421 - 08/28/04 07:18 PM Re: Righting Pole myths [Re: Danno]  
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 248
SteveT Offline
enthusiast
SteveT  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 248
Colorado
Quote
I've heard 2 different ways to sheet the mainsail when righting. One, to let it out, so the sail will dump any water as it comes up. Two, like you said, sheet in and let the wind help the sail up.

If the boat is on its side, don't worry about sheeting in the sail. With the bows pointed into the wind, if you get just a little of the mast out of the water, the sail will fill enough to lift out of the water and right the boat. Once the boat comes up, you want the sails luffing. If any sail is sheeted in, you risk having it power up and take off without you.


H-20 #896
#37422 - 08/28/04 07:43 PM Re: Righting Pole myths [Re: SteveT]  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
However, I would add to that: if your mainsail is out when you right the boat, make sure you get onto the boat from up toward the front. If you go to the back of the boat to get back on, and the mainsail is out, the boat will turn away from the wind and take off, maybe without you.

It's sort of like you can't control a horse by holding onto its tail.

#37423 - 08/28/04 08:25 PM Re: Righting Pole myths [Re: Mary]  
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 241
jfint Offline
enthusiast
jfint  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 241
Simi Valley, CA
Easiest thing to just reach out and grab the dolphin striker and the boat starts to come towards you, you can then push/pull your body where you want it to be in relation to the landing boat, and its easier in my opinion to get back on the boat from the front using the bows and the beam to lift yourself.


Josh Fint Prindle 19 "Accident Prone" Moro Bay Sailing
#37424 - 08/28/04 09:24 PM Re: Righting Pole myths [Re: jfint]  
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 591
Sycho15 Offline
addict
Sycho15  Offline
addict

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 591
Bradenton, FL
Actually, I leave the mainsail sheeted in just a little bit. Traveler tight to center, mainsail sheeted a bit loose. The bows should be facing the wind after it comes up and the boat will be in irons- not going anywhere.

On my G-Cat, there is no dolphin striker to grab, and the front trampoline prevents grabbing the mast-beam very well. I just duck under the hull and climb aboard from the side.

And let's not forget- CONGRATULATIONS for righting your boat solo and unassisted. Most of us don't own boats that permit this.


G-Cat 5.7M #583 (sail # currently 100) in Bradenton, FL Hobie 14T
#37425 - 08/28/04 10:48 PM Re: Righting Pole myths [Re: Sycho15]  
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 106
Danno Offline
member
Danno  Offline
member

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 106
NW Washington
Thanks for the feedback, folks :-)

Mary:

To step my mast, I put one end into the ball, the other lies directly aft on a small step ladder. Gotta get the end of the mast supported above the rear beam. Cat is trailered with with tramp 3+ ft above ground. I put another small step ladder right behind the rear beam. Mast has one forestay that's now loose, and the 2 shrouds in place. Put mast on shoulder, walk up 3 steps of 4-step stepladder to get onto tramp.

Like I say, it was much easier in my yard for some reason. Definately doesn't feel as safe as I'd like.

I tried the gin pole thing and didn't work very well. Got a pulley system (take a look at the thread and pic of mine about stepping(?)) that runs from the main halyard to trailer mast support and back through jib cleat. I can take up the slack as I go, but need to put in something for side stabilization. Trap wires to front beam might do.

Ciao,
Danno


Danno
#37426 - 08/29/04 12:35 AM Re: Righting Pole myths [Re: Danno]  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Okay, that's what I didn't get, because usually, the person raising the mast is already standing on the trampoline.

#37427 - 08/29/04 07:51 AM Re: Righting Pole myths [Re: Danno]  
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
RickWhite Offline
RickWhite  Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
Dan,
That sounds like a really complicated way to step a mast.
Here is how you should do it.
Put the mast on the ball and let the mast rest on the rear beam. If you already have your rudders and tiller on, the mast on the tiller bar may bend it permanently, so you can use something else to rest the mast on in the horizontal postion, i.e., a milk crate, a fender, a box, etc.
Now just get on the boat, ascertaining that the bow is tied to the trailer and the trailer is hitched to the car (or someone is standing on the trailer tongue)
Go back by the rear beam and lift the mast up in one swoop, much like the clean and jerk in weight lifting.
Bingo, no climbing ladders.., or falling off them.
Good luck,
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
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