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#8833 - 07/17/02 07:54 AM Looking for 18 Squares and Acats  
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tami Offline
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tami  Offline
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Gulf Coast
Hello all,



I've been having a conversation with the Coast Catamaran Club out of Ocean Springs, Mississippi.



We are working on creating a regatta for 18 Squares, Acats, 5.5uni, and any other unirigged (NO SPINNAKERS, please) boats which will be in conjunction with the Slip to Ship regatta held Memorial Day weekend.



While the S2S guys head out to the island, the unirig guys (18 Squares, Acats, 5.5uni) will be sailing triangles in the bay. On Sunday, the unirigs will go around Deer Island along with the other fleets, separate start of course.



We intend this to be a NAMSA-sanctioned regatta, and we'll be right in there with the great party that is a hallmark of Slip to Ship races.



If you have a unirig boat and are interested, PLEASE email me at vileine18sq@hotmail.com so I can keep you informed as the pursuit of the regatta continues.



Thanks,

Tami Shelton




-- Have You Seen This? --
#8834 - 07/17/02 10:05 AM Re: Looking for 18 Squares and Acats [Re: tami]  

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I am surprised that NAMSA would sponsor an event that excludes "unis w/spinnakers", much less any type of boat cat being excluded. What is up?

#8835 - 07/18/02 08:55 AM Re: Looking for 18 Squares and Acats  
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tami Offline
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Nobody is excluded. This race is a part of the Slip to Ship race which has always included ALL cats.



The singlehanded cats, which include all of same without spinnakers, are invited to the triangles portion of the race, which will be called the "Regatta Tous Seul."



Everyone else is welcome to participate in the distance race portion, which involves a trip to East Ship Island, where chicken and drinks are.



Although I only mentioned Squares, Acats and 5.5u, I want to emphasize that all singlehanded boats are invited to come, including but not exclusive to H14, H17, P15...



So you are welcome to run whatcha brung, sir.



sea ya

tami


#8836 - 07/18/02 10:12 AM Re: spinnakers vs unis [Re: tami]  
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samevans Offline
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samevans  Offline
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Your splitting out the unis is another sign of the issues involved with spinnaker boats.

At several regattas this year, beginning with Spring Fever, the PRO has announced warnings to non-spi boats about the speed, limited vision and lack of control that spi boats may have, downwind of course, and for US to watch out for them no matter if we were on starboard.

This problem is exacerbated for uni rigs because we are even slower downwind.

I am starting to understand how monos feel when we are blowing by them on a downwind reach.

A Tiger doing the "wild thing", gets there very fast.

Having to worry about a boat, or boats, overtaking you from astern, going much deeper, at three times your speed, with limited control, is no fun.

The reverse is true for the spi boats. Worrying about a unirig, slowly reaching across your course on starboard.

But to caution the non-spi sailors to watch out for the spi boats and avoid them is unfair.

Forcing one group of sailors to adjust their tactics because of another group has a faster, harder to control boat is a violation of R.R.S. Rule No. 2 "Fair Sailing" which is about "sportsmanship and fair play".

We shouldn't have to make a choice between being run over by a spi boat or sailing our proper course.

#8837 - 07/18/02 11:50 AM Re: spinnakers vs unis [Re: samevans]  
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Tracie Offline
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Tracie  Offline
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Hampton, Virginia
Hi Sam -



I think the PRO's warnings are justified. Though, I don't think it's intended to suggest that non-spi boats need to "stay our of our way, or avoid us", I just think that people need to be aware of what's going on around them on the course and realize that a spin-boat is going to get there in hurry.



Limited visibility is another issue. Some people assume that since they are on starboard they are golden. I've seen people not even looking as to what's going on around them.



Perfect example. Midwinters east this year. We just turned the corner and popped the chute. A few seconds later there was a 14 right in front of us. We never saw him, and apparently he never saw us. We wound up flipping the boat to avoid a potentially nasty crash. As our mast came down it narrowly missed the guy on the 14..and he never even looked over his shoulder to see what all the hoopla was about. He was either oblivious or just felt as though he needn't react since he was on starboard. I don't know. All I know is we never saw him coming. That is very scary.



I think the caution given is needed. Again, I don't belive it means you have to alter your course for us no matter what, it just means we might be approaching faster than you think, and we might not see you, so don't assume we do.

Hail us even if you think we *might* be a factor. Let us know your there.



Tracie




#8838 - 07/18/02 02:36 PM Re: spinnakers vs unis [Re: Tracie]  
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Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
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Annapolis, MD
Well my question goes beyond the saftey issue and asks.

Is it fun???



Is the stress of a multiclass fleet with spin boats in the mix worth it for the spin boat??? Realize that they will be at fault as the windward boat.



Is the stress for the boat that could get run over worth it.



The experience level on the course is really variable and I believe that this is a problem that is not easily solved.



Mark


crac.sailregattas.com
#8839 - 07/18/02 02:50 PM Re: spinnakers vs unis [Re: Mark Schneider]  
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Tracie Offline
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Tracie  Offline
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Hampton, Virginia
Stress?

Let me clarify this. I don't think spinnaker boat crews get out on the race course and break into a sweat and develop and nervous twitch at the thought of meeting up with another boat going downwind.



I don't think stress is a good word. Anxious is better. We all get anxious at some point on the race course, that's kinda what makes it fun, doesn't it?



Tracie

#8840 - 07/18/02 04:22 PM Re: the stress is on the slow boat [Re: Tracie]  
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samevans Offline
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You have it backwards Tracie. My point is that the stress is on the slow boat because of this "stay out the spi boats way" metality.

Unfortunately we are all on the same water and usually rounding the same marks. I have felt a great deal of stress trying to round "C" mark with a spi boat almost flipping over on top of me.

Per the US Sailing R.R.S. the stress SHOULD be on the spi boat. The PRO directs his warnings to the slow boat skippers to watch out for the fast spis instead of warning the spis to maintain a better lookout.

THAT IS BACKWARDS.

Perhaps you didn't hear the same PRO speeches I did.

Your own incident(s) exemplify the problem.

You "turned the corner and popped the chute". As slow as a Hobie 14 is downwind, how could you not see him IF you were looking for slow boats?

The foolish 14 skipper was probably wasting his time, trying to figure out which course to take and how to set his sails (racing?) instead of looking astern for the Tigers and Foxes.

I have seen plenty of these "A" mark roundings with several spi boats focusing on getting their sheets up as fast as possible, blocking their view, and then blasting off.

It is true that most people don't hail enough, especially when they have rights.

The basis of our rules is that the right-of-way boat has the right to focus on sailing their boat and ignore burdened boats, up to the point a collision is imminent.

As I said, this "reversal of responsibility" trend has got to stop.

#8841 - 07/18/02 06:09 PM Re: the stress is on the slow boat [Re: samevans]  
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brobru Offline
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Here in de islands, we run 2 classes,..SPin and NonSpin.



Sometimes the give us separate starts,......sometimes the same start,...



anyway,.....there is no stress up to the first mark,....



..then we never see the Spin Cats again!!!...lets get real,...those SPin Boats drive and move like powerboats,...they are GONE mon!



So, enjoy your choice of rig,...and have fun.



Bruce



I 17 normal,.w/ no spin



St. Croix

#8842 - 07/18/02 10:39 PM Re: the stress is on the slow boat [Re: samevans]  
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Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
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Posts: 3,095
Annapolis, MD
The RC must set an offset mark or chaos will result!



By having the fleet round A and reach off for 50 yards before spinning down wind... you avoid the windward leward scene with all the boats coming up on the starboard beat versus starbord jibe..



Rule 1 is avoid collision.

Insurance companies don't care about windward leeward...they want to know who could have avoided the collision!



Your point that its not fair racing for the small guy to avoid being run over has merit... but unless the two fleets are seperated onto different courses lt will probobly be wiser for slow to give way to fast and/or use a wistle to alert the windward boat that you are around and have rights.



dead right is a bit useless and certainly expensive.



Offset marks help a great deal though have your PRO give that a try.





crac.sailregattas.com
#8843 - 07/18/02 10:49 PM Re: the stress is on the slow boat [Re: Mark Schneider]  
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Leo Offline
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Leo  Offline
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Racine, Wisconsin
When I raced PHRF, we used 2 courses. One permanent course on the south end of Milwaukee Bay and one throw in course in on the North end of the bay. I always liked racing the throw in course better because it made use of the offset. I may also be biased because I ran the fore deck and it made my life easier (no millisecond hoist and gybe for your life jobs). It always made exiting a mark much less risky and uneventful (in a good way) for everyone.


Paul Scott Bartelt 2001 NACRA 6.0 NA #546
#8844 - 07/19/02 02:53 AM Re: the stress is on the slow boat [Re: samevans]  
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Tracie Offline
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Tracie  Offline
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Hampton, Virginia
Actually, the guy on the 14 was heading upwind after his start.

Anyways, I still don't think PRO's are turning the responsibilty on the slower boats. It's still everyone's responsibility to avoid a collision at all costs.

I guess I can see how one might feel the burden is on them, but I don't believe other spinnaker boats would agree that other boats should stay out or way, we're just saying don't assume we see you.



Off to St Augustine now. See you at Mrytle Beach.

and hey, you better stay out my way on the course! - just kidding Sam! [Linked Image]



Tracie

#8845 - 07/19/02 06:29 AM Re: offset marks & other options [Re: Tracie]  
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samevans Offline
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Brobru,

Gone where? If you are running triangles then those "gone" boats are turning around "A" mark and heading down into the slow boats. That is what happened to Tracie.

At most regattas we run 2-4 starts with 2-3 laps.

Slow boats and fast boats DO meet on the course. We are ALL racing in the water between "A" mark, "B" mark and "C" mark.

Mark,

The offset marks helps at "A" mark roundings. Offset marks work even better if ONLY the spi boat classes round them.

At Lake Norman Yacht Club, they set a second "A" mark, about 100 yards upwind for the faster boats. This helps, but you are sailing down into the other "A" mark.

I think offset marks should be mandatory for races with spi boats. If it were standard, people would get used to it.

Unfortunately they is no system for an offset "C" mark. That is where the spi boat almost fell on me as I enter the two boat length circle. The spi boats needs to keep his chute up until the last second for maximum performance.

And yes, I carry a whistle on my PFD.

Tracie,

I realize that the PRO cannot change the right-of-way rules, but I feel more emphasis needs to be put on the spi boats trying harder to look around and plot the speed of smaller instead of vice-versa.

#8846 - 07/19/02 04:08 PM Re: offset marks & other options [Re: samevans]  
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waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
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Posts: 5,573
Naples, FL
Good points by all, and I am certainly no expert at rules of the road, but isn't the overtaking boat required to give way to the boat being overtaken? I guess this would also apply because the overtaking boat is to windward...



I know the visibility is an issue with spins. In my humble opinion, if I'm going to throw up something like that, it's my responsibility to do my best to control it. Sure, I don't like when Waves pop out from seemingly nowhere, and I feel bad when I have to dump/alter course to avoid a collision, but it's ultimately my job to control my boat.



That being said, I have less than optimistic feelings towards non-spin boats that use their rights to push overtaking boats all over the course. Again, my understanding of the "rules" is that the overtaking boat gives rights, but only if the boat overtaken holds course and speed. Purposely causing a spin boat to dump as you head it up is not very sportsmanlike, and since very few of us do this for a living, I doubt it is necessary. As I see it, a race is won by the team that makes the fewest mistakes, not the team that barges the rest of the fleet into trouble.



But that's just me, I guess. I treat slower boats as any other on-course hazard. I could just as easily have happened upon a sea turtle or manatee, who's direction and speed is much less predictable!



Jay


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