Thanks for the report. How sad..

Does this mean that the final suggestion for 2012 from the US will be:

Single - Handed Dinghy - Men
Single - Handed Dinghy - Women
Skiff - Men
Skiff - Women
Double - Handed Dinghy - Men
Double - Handed Dinghy - Women
Keelboat - Men
Keelboat - Women *

* match racing or fleet racing


And there is no changing this?

So now I guess the question is: Will multihull sailing and board sailing continue to support US Sailing?

That's a good point Mary. I wonder how many of us cat racers are even members of US Sailing? I have been a memeber since about 1979 but I would bet that most cat racers are NOT US Sailing members where as just about ALL mono racers ARE memebers (I was racing dinghys when I first became a member, because the yacht clubs will nearly require you to be a memeber, most of their dinghy sailors are). So, I would suspect that we don't have a whole lot of political pull at the board level of US Sailing. They obviously want to funnel all their limited funds into clases where they think they have the best chances of getting a medal. I can't blame them for that. Maybe if our US Sailing organization was funded by our government like so many other countries are, we would be doing much better at the Olympics in terms of medal production. The funny thing is, I think our Olympic Cat sailors did better than most of our mono sailors at the last Olympics!

I have no fear that France and the rest of Europe will trump the US and keep the Tornado in the Olympics, they live for fast cats!

Bob...
Since this is about Bodie's assesment of the talent pool in Tornado's... Boards, Women' and Men's Skiffs...

Did they talk about the pool of women on olympic campaigns?

How about the total pool of skiff sailors in the country?

I guess I am asking if this decision was based on fantasy, wishful thinking or politics... or do they have real facts ( eg names and assesments of potential Olympic sailors).

The fact of the matter is... US Sailing has never believed that medal talent could come up through the beach cat community. Robbie Daniel is the current exception. Johnny Lovel and Lars Guck were great college sailors who paid for their own development to get into the Tornado elite. So... what is the difference in 2007. They have to build a program to train skiff girls from scratch.. The skiff men pool is equally small and lean.... What is their reason for not training talent for catamarans. The jump from college 420's to skiffs or cats is equally demanding.

They ALWAYS seem to pick their pony early and then start tilting the game in that persons favor. Is their an element of ... none of the catamaran sailors will play our game... so. a pox on them?

The Brits and Europe are not likely to dump the Tornado in 2012 so... the 64,000 question is... WILL THEY PUT RESOURCES INTO DEVELOPING THE Catamaran TALENT POOL... or does this ISAF decision mean... we surrender in the cat and board area... no matter what?

How much of this decision is based on ...the notion.. crap... we have no training programs whatsoever... BUT... women's skiffs are brand new... we have a shotin the first cycle... after that... the other nations will kick our butt in the development game?

Is the olympic game so proffesional now that we just can't afford a developoment program... So we need to pick our 1 or at most 2 horses early and push them... the trials are just an exhibition sailing exercise. The rank and file cat sailors are not even close to this game and so our complaints about this are naieve.

Before, I asserted that their reasons would be laughable... While we might disagree with the final decision of US Sailing.... Did their points have merit and US Sailing and ourselves disagre on how to evaluate the facts?

I guess the notion that a strong grass roots sailing program through out the country will strenghen our Olympic efforts is completly wrong.

I believe the changes that US Sailing put in place would make it easier to understand the budget. How much of the general membership dues are devoted to Olympic sailing. Dean Brenner has supposedly done a good job fundraising... Is the Olympic portion approaching self sufficiency?

Do we have a beef about how the budget is being spent?

Thanks again for taking the time and money to go make the case. Sounds a bit like you were talking to the hand... It must have been frustrating.

Thanks again
Mark

We traditionally are strong in women's events and especially new women's events. If there was a possibility of a women's catamaran that would change the dynamics considerably for the USOSC.



There is no denying that it is very strong.



The decision is strongly based on the politics of trying to have an influence on the ISAF process and manipulate the events in the direction of US strengths. I think they have the facts correct at this point in time. My major disagreement with this is on the principal. I think that the Olympics should look like sailing with all the major disciplines represented.



We need to see talent come out of the catamaran community more often. Everyone pays for their own campaigns through their own fundraising. This is the same in every class. the USOSC doesn't really build "programs". They take proven talent and try to give it a final push over the top. If there is going to be a program WE need to build it and we are starting 100 years behind keel boats and about 75 behind dinghys.



I don't think so.



I do think that Europe will not let the multihull go away but it's scary to think that any MNA is considering it.
I think US Sailing has surrendered in terms of the board sailing. Not quite as much in catamarans. If there is going to be a development of young elite catamaran sailors it's going to be up to us. That's the way it is across all the classes. For example CISA does a fantastic job training elite dingy sailors (probably the best), but that is not a USOSC program.
BTW: US Sailings position on multihulls changes significantly if there is a possibility that the class would change to something other than the Tornado. A new class means a fresh start in terms of the talent pool and the USOSC thinks they will have a chance at that game. Don't shoot the messenger.



See previous comments about the training program. I think the USOSC feeling is that the US will do well in events with new equipment and in women's classes.



The Star and the Tornado are particularly professional, making it very hard to break into the top of the fleet, not to mention that those fleets are the smallest at the Olympics so it's very hard for even the best sailors to get there at all. We have a strong base of professional keelboat sailors to draw from in the Star. Not so much in the Tornado.



Personally I disagree on the principal.



Grass roots is great for long term and catamaran sailing in general. In this instance the only plan of attack would be to start at the top with a few elite kids that can hanndle the long hard road and expand down into grass roots programs. It's a bit opposite of what you need to do in order to just increase participation.






Absolutely ZERO dollars from the membership go into the Olympic program. It's completely independent. Dean has made big strides on the fundraising side but it's a long road.



Remember that Lovell is an accountant and he is on the US Sailing Audit committee. The US won a medal in the Tornado last time around. That means they get more money from the USOC. New guys and girls with no big results get nothing across the board. Dean is working hard on the fundraising aspect but it's a long hard road.

Larry Ellison, Roy Disney, Mr. Kahn, Steve Fosset, and hundreds of other Billionairs here in the states, each one pursuing his own sailboat racing dream, and rightfully so, but how much money do each of them contribute towards the Olympic Saililng programs, or any US Sailing junior beginner program? How many little boats have they bought for inner city youth to learn to sail?

Personally, I have always been a bit upset by the amount of money US Sailing spends on things like the Olympics, vs. developing some real grass roots programs to bring sailing to more kids in middle schools and high schools all over the country. 99% of the dues paying members of US Sailing will never even see an Olympic regatta, let alone race in one, and most of the members have no desire -what so ever- to race in the Olympics, especially in those 40+ year old boats (470, Star)

Don't get me wrong, I think the Olympics are a great way for each country to measure it's best against the rest of the world, but that's all it is, and only once every 4 years, so why should US Sailing be so involved with any of it, when most of the members have no time or desire to compete in that way. I think all the US Olympic funding should be funded by private donations from some of our Super Sized Corporations, starting with Exxon! What did they make last year, only about $40 BILLION, I think they could write that check. Microsoft should pony up some dough too. Between just the two of them, money should not be an issue for our Olympic Atheletes here in the richest nation on earth. You should hunt down McDonalds and Coca Cola, the two biggest contributers to childhood obesity, and tell them to write the check to support some of the kids that DON'T spend all day on the couch watching the tube, sucking down fries and a Coke. That would help their image quite a bit.

Frankly I'm embarassed that our Olympic team has to beg for money at all. Other counties fund their teams off their national tax systems, we could always do that. Do we not have a "National Endowment for the Arts"?? that our tax dollars pay for? And what about that "bridge to nowhere" in Alaska? We will spend more tax money on that then the entire Olympic budget, summer and winter, for the next 4 years!

It is. See above.

So you are saying US Sailing spends NO DUES money for the Olympic sailing? What are my dues being spent on? A little rule book once every 3 years??

That is correct. NO DUES money for Olympic sailing.

What IS your money spent on? That's the subject for another thread.

Thank you Bob

I will eat my words asserting their decision was laughable. (would have been much easier to throw more rocks... IMO they have had a track record of failure)

I completly agree with you that the fundamental diagreement is philosophical.

So... US Sailing Olympic is essentially that final push.
This makes the decsion to reduce the size of the US SAiling team make sense.

The bottom line is... IF we as the cat racing community believe that it is important to have Olympic status and success for our type of sailing .. we will have to build the program some how.. some where.

We, the cat sailors need to boot strap a development program through our sailing clubs.

Sailors coming out of top college programs will be on their own when they jump into racing cats until they get to the elite level.

We need an immediate solution to train a few elite up and coming young sailors and hope they find funding to keep at it when they time out of any program we come up with.

Wow...

We have so much else to do... Is an Olympic slot that important to our long term health as fleets to warrant the effort?

All you guys are volunteers, right? So, where's the money going? Opti's?

I travel for a living. I have always bid to layover near water. San Diego, LA, Seattle, Boston, Providence, Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, Palm Beach, Sarasota, Ft. Myers, Chicago. I have yet to find a US Sailing location that will rent me a boat on a walk up basis. They are usually very snotty, busy babysitting the Opti kids, and they will laugh at you if you ask to rent a boat.

But in England, I can walk up to any Royal Yachting Academy club, show my RYA card and rent a boat for an afternoon, for about $30, with a wet suit thrown in free. I can even enter a race if they are on for that day. And when I get back, there will be beer, on location, on draft. I wish US Sailing was funded and run like the RYA! Is it any wonder the Brits kick our butt in most sailing events? They are half the size of Texas and I think California has a larger GDP!

But here in the states, I can only rent from a motel, if I can find one with boats, and it's only crappy, run down, overpriced equipment. How many hundreds of thousands of miles of coastline, ocean and lake, do we have here in the US? Why are there no US Sailing programs that are nation wide, open to walk up adults, get a card, show it and rent at all US Sailing locations? I can walk into any Harley Davidson shop and rent a $20,000 bike with only my driver's license, but I've been to many US Sailing sites, looked at their boats, tried to weasel my way onto one, and even with my membership card, they won't let me touch one until I get a week of instruction by Their Instructor, (who is away this week), take a test, (again)etc. Why is that? They are much better at turning people away than welcoming them to sailing.

Some thoughts:

1) If it can be demonstrated that the US has more chances of medals in those 6 classes, I'd say the Board is honestly doing what it is supposed to do: giving their vote to the classes that bring more medals.

2) Other countries (France, Austria, Spain, Argentina, etc.) that see good good chances for a medal in the Tornado will certainly vote for the "double handed multihull open".

3) I don't see the ISAF dropping the Tornado so easily. It would be quite difficult to defend this cause. Remember that the B Class was created by the ISAF itself, and the Tornado is a B Class designed specifically for the Olympics.

4) I think the lack of US support for the multihull will actually motivate some countries to follow the (expected) French and British vote for the Tornado.

5) The US vote is only one vote. Remember that the Tornado is a British design and that the French recommendations for changes in the T were almost exactly those enforced by ISAF a few years ago. If both England and France vote for the T, most European countries will follow.

5) Even if the existing "double handed multihull open" class is dropped, the Tornado may still be the equipment of choice for a "double handed dinghy" class. It is not simple or easy, but it is possible. And would "save face" for the ISAF.

All the best,

It sounds to me as if you need an organisation to promote sailing...but don't you already have one? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

From the discussion on this forum topic only, it appears as though the organisation that represents sailing in the US is not representing the majority of sailors in the US.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

What is the ratio of cat, dinghy etc. types of sailing participation?

As far as I know there are strong Tornado fleets in England and Germany while Spain and France seem to have good olympic Tornado programs. Australia should be a strong supporter, but you never know.. Who comes behind Bundy/Ashby and Hagara/Steinacher from Austria? These few countries are not exactly a majority within ISAF, even if they are big (on an european scale). Loosing US support for the multihull class can not be good. Will be exiting to watch what happens!

I dont think the financing of olympic sailors differ much from the US model over here. Athletes get a small bonus from our olympic national comitte for top ten finishes in europeans/worlds. Top athletes can also apply for grants from diverse funds, but sailing assocs. seldom finance athletes fully. The assoc. often try to help athletes find corperate sponsors, but the athletes have to do the basic work. The brits have a very good solution, but I dont know others who do the same.

Why I think this proposal is a bad idea.

1) The Olympic regatta should represent all of the of the worlds most widely practiced event types. Keelboats, Dinghys, Multihulls and Boards are the four largest and most fundamental event types in the world of sailing.

2) US Sailings responsibility to it's member athletes should take priority over it's perceived medal chances.

3) The stated reasons supporting this proposal are either false, contradictory or could be said of any event type.

"Skiffs are exciting and generate media interest and buzz."
This is a contradictory statement in a proposal that excludes multihulls.

"This slate of Events will appeal to a wide range of athletes."
This is FALSE. This slate of events appeals to a more narrow range of athletes by excluding multihulls.

"This slate of Events is representative of the sport as it is practiced around the World. As a result, it is likely that this slate will increase the number of countries competing in the Olympic Regatta."
This statement is also FALSE. In fact the US Sailing President would not even stand behind it when questioned at the Board of Directors Meeting.

4) The Olympics presently has ten medals for the 2012 Games. An unbalanced event list with six dinghy classes does not present a strong case to the IOC for the number of medals to be maintained at ten.

Somehow, I do think the US Sailing vote was intentional to vote out the multihull class. Is it time we as a community diverge away from US Sailing and simply use ISAF as our rules and portsmouth rating sailing rules(Texel system)? Take away from them the Alter Cup? Besides providing us a $2.00 course sticker, what do they really do for us again?

Bob

Bob, when you say "us," do you mean "us" as sailors in general or "us" as multihull sailors? And either way or both ways, as rhodysail said, somebody should start a new thread about it.

I agree with Bob on this one. I can't say that I've ever benefitted by US Sailing in regards to catsailing, save maybe regatta insurance for organizers. I got a nice course sticker, of course, but Jake and Robi can make those (for a lot cheaper as well). If catsailing is going to grow in this nation, it is not going to be with the help of US Sailing.
I'd be more than willing to pay my dues to a US Catsailing or the like...

"us" as in multihull sailors, whether it be by 2 or 3 hulls!!

"Rhody" Thank you for taking the time and effort to represent us at the US SAILING meeting. I agree with your comments on this post. As a past Olympic Medalist, you have first hand knowledge of what it takes to train and compete in the Olympics.

As to what US SAILING can do for us, it is really up to us to volunteer and take part. The US SAILING Multihull Council and Committee meetings are open to all sailors. Come to the meetings, speak up, and be part of the process. When US SAILING dropped the "Fast and Fun" program, we were very disapointed, but were able to build our own program locally to carry on this free outreach sailing program. The US Youth Multihull Championship is a good example of what US SAILING is doing for youth development. This year, the openings were filled long before the event. In past years if was difficult to find Youth to enter. Three of the twenty teams are in the final training at Sail Sand Point, in Seattle.

"Timbo" next time you have a layover in Seattle, give me a call, or send me a PM. At Sail Sand Point, we are not a "boat rental" but have many volunteers that keep our cats in the Access/Storage area that would be glad to get you out on Lake Washington.

Caleb Tarleton