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Re: 2012 Olympic Games Equipment issue... [Re: Timbo] #100569
03/22/07 06:17 PM
03/22/07 06:17 PM
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Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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As you are familar with equestrian events, am I correct in assuming that equestrian and sailing are some of the few Olympic events that the competitor uses their own equipment. If so does, the equestrian community have similar issues with their organizing body?


My daughter also rides horses (the boat never gets ready, etc.)

I think we can should not compare those situations. Choosing the type of equestrian event is equivalent to choose fleet racing, match racing, course types and the like. We are talking about changing boat types. They never change the type of equipment in the equestrian events - it is always a horse!

I wonder if the US equestrian authority will ever suggest to ride donkeys, camels or zebras... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Luiz
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Re: 2012 Olympic Games Equipment issue... [Re: Luiz] #100570
03/23/07 10:10 AM
03/23/07 10:10 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
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St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
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Bobsled is another sport that comes to mind that competitors use their own equipment.

Other forms of equipment: Skis, skates, Hockey sticks, ..


Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Re: 2012 Olympic Games Equipment issue... [Re: Luiz] #100571
03/23/07 10:47 AM
03/23/07 10:47 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Luis You obviously haven't heard about our Zebra program.

The USA has cloned zebra's that can jump 3 meters! (Inspired by the movie Stripes no less). These animals are propriatary and cannot be exported to countries like Brazil because of your ban on our GM grains!


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: 2012 Olympic Games Equipment issue... [Re: Mark Schneider] #100572
03/24/07 07:28 AM
03/24/07 07:28 AM
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Luis You obviously haven't heard about our Zebra program. The USA has cloned zebra's that can jump 3 meters! (Inspired by the movie Stripes no less). These animals are propriatary and cannot be exported to countries like Brazil because of your ban on our GM grains!


Not really. Obviously the zebra's stripes are also genetically modified: red and blue...

Brazil only has GM "burros" (donkeys). They don't compete 'cause they're all in politics. ("burro" stands for both "donkey" and "stupid").

Luiz

PS - Are you sure about this ban on US GM grains in Brazil? I know for sure that there is none in Paraguay. Monsanto sells truckloads of GM seeds both in Brazil and in Paraguay.


Luiz
Re: 2012 Olympic Games Equipment issue... [Re: Mike Hill] #100573
03/24/07 07:45 AM
03/24/07 07:45 AM
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Bobsled is another sport that comes to mind that competitors use their own equipment. Other forms of equipment: Skis, skates, Hockey sticks, ..


Correct. But it is cheaper and easier to obtain Olympic level equipment for those sports. A competitive horse suitable for the Olympics would certainly cost more than USD 150.000. A Star is worth less, but is still very expensive. How much is a bobsled worth? Forget about the hockey stick...

The other factor is: what is the edge you get from the equipment? According to the expert from the Chilean Olympic team the horse weights about 60% and the rider about 40%. I guess in sailing the boat weights about 40% and skill 60%. What are the figures in those other sports?


Luiz
Re: 2012 Olympic Games Equipment issue... [Re: Luiz] #100574
03/24/07 08:10 AM
03/24/07 08:10 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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I think at Olympic level sailing, the boat is worth 0% compared to all the other boats, which all have to be measured and weighed in, and the sails, so the boats are all very nearly the same. So the value of the boat (relative to all the other boats) should be 0, or equal.

The Horses on the other hand, being live animals, cannot possibly be made all the same, and THAT is why a good horse can make an average rider look very good, and that's why the horse will cost at least $150,000.

I think it was Paul Cayard who after he last campaigned a Star for the Olympics, then said it cost him at least $100,000, and that was just the money to go to regattas, not the cost of the boat, which I hear for a new Star is about $40,000. That makes a $25,000 Tornado look cheap!

Last edited by Timbo; 03/24/07 08:14 AM.

Blade F16
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Re: 2012 Olympic Games Equipment issue... [Re: Timbo] #100575
03/24/07 11:47 AM
03/24/07 11:47 AM
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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I think at Olympic level sailing, the boat is worth 0% compared to all the other boats, which all have to be measured and weighed in, and the sails, so the boats are all very nearly the same. So the value of the boat (relative to all the other boats) should be 0, or equal.

The Horses on the other hand, being live animals, cannot possibly be made all the same, and THAT is why a good horse can make an average rider look very good, and that's why the horse will cost at least $150,000.


Absolutely. Thanks for correcting my reasoning.

Still, when ISAF changes the equipment Olympic hopefuls change one class for another, which is very expensive, both in terms of money and in terms of trainment time.

I guess no sport changes the equipment so frequently. On the other hand, in no other sport the equipment has evolved so fast - besides the GM zebras, of course!

The fast evolution of equipment is one of the reasons why ISAF periodically introduces changes, usually adding fast, modern classes to the games, but not always. Under the rationale of favoring fast, modern classes, exclusion of the Tornado is unliquely.

Consider, though, that the current trend in ISAF is to favor TV friendly, popular, visually atractive and faster equipment. The T is the fastest equipment, but it is not exactly popular. It equals the other classes in the remaining criteria.


Luiz
Re: 2012 Olympic Games Equipment issue... [Re: Luiz] #100576
03/24/07 12:21 PM
03/24/07 12:21 PM
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Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
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Thinking ahead, it would be a good idea for any catamaran sailors in the Arizona area to be at the US Sailing AGM in October. This issue of Olympic equipment gets decided at ISAF in November and we could be going through this same deal all over again.

Site of the Annual Meeting
October 24th-28th, 2007
Embassy Suites, Phoenix - Scottsdale
4415 East Paradise Village Parkway S.
Phoenix, AZ 85032

http://www.ussailing.org/events/meet07fall/fall2007.htm

Re: 2012 Olympic Games Equipment issue... [Re: barbshort] #100577
03/24/07 06:21 PM
03/24/07 06:21 PM
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garda Offline
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It's a side issue in many ways, but the claim that multihulls represent "25% of racing worldwide" seems utterly wrong. As far as I can figure from National titles attendance in three of the major sailing nations (including strong cat countries) cats make up about 5-10% of boats attending Nationals.

Add in all the big boats that race competitively (PHRF, IRC, Key West, Bermuda, Fastnet, Spi Ouest) and multi sailiing starts to look pretty small. That doesn't mean the T should get dumped from the Games, but it does seem that it can't claim that it HAS to be there if the Games are to be representative of the sport.

Just let me say again, the T should be in the Games, but to support the T's claim by saying there's more cat sailors than there seems to be, may not work that well.

Last edited by garda; 03/24/07 07:05 PM.
Re: 2012 Olympic Games Equipment issue... [Re: garda] #100578
03/25/07 04:58 AM
03/25/07 04:58 AM
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Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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I don't think 25 percent is a credible figure, but it is very hard to get good numbers because you never know whether people are talking about numbers of boats actively racing or boats sailing or boats manufactured.

Even Sailing World Magazine's periodic surveys are very unreliable, because they ask classes to report how many class members they have. Some classes report exactly that, but some report how many boats have been manufactured. So the findings are very skewed, both for monohulls and multihulls.

I remember one such survey several years ago when the Hobie Class reported its current membership at about 12,000. I knew this was wrong, because at that time the NAHCA membership was closer to 1,200. The only thing I could figure was that they submitted what they claimed as the last known circulation of the Hobie Hotline.

It did make the multihulls look good, though, because we got a big slice of the graphic pie that Sailing World included with their survey results. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by Mary; 03/25/07 05:02 AM.
Re: 2012 Olympic Games Equipment issue... [Re: Mary] #100579
03/25/07 10:39 AM
03/25/07 10:39 AM
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Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
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Based on the number of ISAF classes it breaks down like this.
Dinghys: 46.9%
Keelboats: 29.7%
Catamarans: 14.1%
Boards: 9.4%

Re: 2012 Olympic Games Equipment issue... [Re: rhodysail] #100580
03/25/07 01:39 PM
03/25/07 01:39 PM
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Intersting, Rhody, but of course the number of craft built in each ISAF class varies enormously and the big numbers belong to the boards and the dinghies.

It looks like all the International cat classes combined sell about 800 boats each year. The F18 is the top seller and claims 300 boats built each year for the last five years.

In comparison, both the Opti (4040 yr/18,713 last 5) and Laser (3,151 and 15,048) outnumber the F18 construction 10 to 1. Even the "boring old" Int 420 alone sells 435 boats per year (and that's not counting the Club 420).

In the boards, the RSX, FW, Techno and Raceboard each claim 1,556-1,000 boards each year. There's many more Funboards built and many are used for competition, but no numbers are given.

Of course, in terms of boats built the yacht classes drop well back (some International classes haven't built a single boat some years). Then again, they have 2-10 crew and tend to last a long while.

When just one dinghy class (Lasers*) outsells all the International cat classes COMBINED by a factor of 4 to 1, and the LEAST popular board easily outsells the MOST popular cat**, the claim that "25% of all competition is in multis" looks a bit odd. It's only a minor point, but on the first page of this thread there's several allegations that the "mono establishment" suffers from ignorance and arrogance - maybe it's not all on one side. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


* Leaving the Opti out of the discussion.

** "popular" as in fastest-selling

PS Mary good point about class membership being an unreliable figure. One class manufacturer claims 360 members, but only 5 boats turned up to the nationals the last 2 years. That means their claim of 360 members backfires and they have to take the "world's most apathetic class" award <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by garda; 03/25/07 01:59 PM.
Re: 2012 Olympic Games Equipment issue... [Re: rhodysail] #100581
03/25/07 01:52 PM
03/25/07 01:52 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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Based on the number of ISAF classes it breaks down like this.
Dinghys: 46.9%
Keelboats: 29.7%
Catamarans: 14.1%
Boards: 9.4%

That sounds more realistic. But what are those percentage figures based on? What do they relate to:

Memberships in the class associations of ISAF boats?
Known numbers of active racers?
Numbers of boats manufactured to date in those classes?

Re: 2012 Olympic Games Equipment issue... [Re: Mary] #100582
03/26/07 07:41 PM
03/26/07 07:41 PM
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Mary,

I like to put it this way: excluding multihulls from the Olympics would be like excluding the fastest formulae from car races. Who would exclude Formula One or Formula Indy from a hipotetic Olympic Car Competition? The numbers favour Golfs, Beetles, whatever, but are numbers a valid criteria for Olympic equipment?

Numbers are being considered only because sailing needs more media atention and ISAF wants to be "politically correct".

What boats are our F1 or Indy equivalent?
IACC, ORMA Open 60 tris, VOR 70, Open 60 monos, Megayachts?

The reason why criterias are never clear in the choice of equipment is that a lot (most?) high quality/professional racing in sailing is way too expensive to enter the Olympic games. The current sailing equipment are mere substitutes. Some are cool, some are fast, some are popular, but none is equivalent to a "F1" or "Indy".

I say: take all classes out and race only ORMA open 60 tris in the Olympics.


Luiz
Re: 2012 Olympic Games Equipment issue... [Re: Luiz] #100583
03/27/07 05:32 AM
03/27/07 05:32 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Numbers are being considered only because sailing needs more media atention and ISAF wants to be "politically correct".


I only wish it were that logical.


Jake Kohl
Re: 2012 Olympic Games Equipment issue... [Re: Jake] #100584
03/27/07 09:49 AM
03/27/07 09:49 AM
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Quote

Numbers are being considered only because sailing needs more media atention and ISAF wants to be "politically correct".


I only wish it were that logical.


I'm referring to ISAF. The MNAs like US sailing can use whatever criteria they want, although they usually follow ISAF's policy trend - at least when they want their proposals/submissions aproved.


Luiz
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