So, in other threads it was asked "How to grow our sport?". After reading this thread its no wonder anyone would want to start to race. As somone who is average in their racing skills I am/would be hesitant to get on the race course. And it has happened, you are trying to sail to the best of your ability and happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Next thing you know you are getting sued because you're a "C" class racer in a mixed fleet of "A" sailors. Not my idea of fun. Your first knee jerk reaction would be "learn the rules or stay off the course!!!". For people with nothing else to do that is great, for casual sailors we'll end up not on the course.

I really couldn't agree more. I've said this before, C fleet sailors shouldn't be forced to race with or against A fleet sailors. Its a recipe for disaster. I am at best C fleet and happy to be such. But, bring your stuff to the ocean with 20kts and I'll have you for lunch!!

If an 80 year old woman can spill a hot cup of coffee in her lap while trying to drive and turn it into a successful lawsuit to the tune of 20 million dollars against Mc Donald’s you better believe everyone is a target.

Regards,
Bob

Hmmm... I would have no hesitation in passing his info onto my insurance company and let them go chase the bugger. Probably wouldn't bother with the US sailing bit though.

Tiger Mike

I did not mean who started it on the forum. I meant who started it as far as requiring it for regattas. It is a fairly recent thing.

Not at all. In my own little pond I can be at the front most weekends. On a national stage or a world level, I'm middle of the fleet at best. Being outclassed by these guys doesn't mean I cant race on the same track - more that when stuff is happening, I understand my own abilities and *stay out of the way*. More often than not I come out ahead of where I would have been anyway.

Having organized a few regattas though the insurance issue is interesting. I personally believe that all boats should be insured especially since the cost (here at least) is very small. On all of my NOR's I make it a condition in the "elegiblity of entry" section that all boats carry a certain level of liability insurance. Then on the entry form, right above where they sign, the words "by entering this regatta I certify that the boat on this entry carries (insert insurance cover here)........"

Here in Australia insurance has been required at nearly all major (and minor) regattas for many years.

Tiger Mike

Aha! So it started in Australia?

Guess I do not understand the problem or question. Hobie Cat Class events have required proof of insurance for years. While the local events usually just require you to sign that you have insurance, the National Events have required proof of insurance for at least the last 17 years.

Caleb Tarleton

Hi Jake

I carry liablity insurance for ME.... not for the other people on the water.... Its my assets that I want to protect when I screw up big time.

So... I don't want the regatta to get involved at all... Just like Mary's position.

If you injure me... I have Property insurance that takes on... sueing your butt to get the money they paid to me back from your hide.

It works out that if you have insurance... they work it out and you and I do not have to do battle the next time we meet. If you don't have inurance... see you in court. I am just the witness... my company is after your money.

Now... Somebody decided that they should make it a requirment to go racing that you have liability insurance.. Who knows who or why.. Seems like a good idea at first glance... but not really.

I presume that they think that it takes some of the stress out of sailboat racing.... Not sure how.. but its a possiblity. About the only thing it does for me as a sailor is... it will take away the stress of "I won't have to sue you personally to have my losses covered ". If all you have is liablity coverage... you have to press the case to get your injury covered.. So.. I personally have to get your company to pay for my injuries... Or if you don't have insurance... I have to personally get you to pay me..

Now if I have property coverage... My insurance company will take on the job of getting their money back.. after they pay me off... So... I don't worry about you having liability insurance or not ... I paid for an insurance company to go after you... and get THEIR money back. As far as I am concerned... its your problem if you have adequate insurance or none at all.

The liablity coverage rule was probably included at the request of the clubs regatta liability insurrer... From their point of view... one more hurdle on the way to their piggy bank is good. I don't believe they insist on this... but I could be wrong. I don't think they can make you include it either.

At any event... If you think you want to include this. insurance rule... How do you plan to enforce it.
So far four options:

put it in the NOR... by signing registration you agree to follow the rules in the NOR. Make them LIE to you the regatta organizers and compeititors.

2) put it in the NOR ... insurance required... Raise the bar and have the sailor explicitly state Insurance through " You won't get a dime Inc". Again. make them lie to your face. (This is how Tiger Mike runs a regatta) (unless its under oath... their lying to you just causes you to loose respect for them... not cash)

3) Something liek what Hobie Cat NA's require... showing proof of insurance.. So.. they have this CARNAC the Magnificent (aka Johnny Carson )character at registration.. who looks at the peice of paper you hand him.... Looks at you... looks at the paer again... pulls a drag... and says "YEAH... this is valid proof of insurance"... or ... NEAH.... this shall not pass muster... (How they hell do they know?) At any event... they give you the paper back... and take or reject your registration... (Swear to god... I got an emal from a racer about this issue who said... yeah... they took my husbands.. proof of insurance... they rejected mine... same company... go figure! haven't a clue what club was involved.).

4) The A Cat NA's are collecting Insurance and Policy Binder number on the entry form. Now they really raise the bar cause they have information in their possesion....

It is still ... Make the sailor lie to your face. Plus a CARNAC the Magnificent character.. Since the A cats don't ask for a notarized... legal type document. so what the hell... You won't get a dime Inc and policy number 0001 are good enough.

But now they have a pot load of issues to resolve.

Once you decide that as the regatta organizer.. You actually want to get in the middle of my personal crisis for god knows what reason ... You better have thought through all of the implications now that your are squarely in the middle of it.

Once the regatta has policy and binder info... Now What happens???.... All of those questions about the clubs policy should and have to be addressed.
Well, you can pray nothing bad happens or plan ahead.. (see how well it works for bush and cheney)

I draw the line here.... I Personally DON'T WANT the Regatta personel involved in my personal crisis at all... Collecting the info puts them in the middle of the [censored] kicking contest. Its my buisness.. stay the hell out of it.

As a regatta organizor... I would not want to have to sort all of this crap out either ...

As a competitor.. I resent that the club is getting in the middle of something they shouldn't.

Bottom line... I buy liability insurance to manage my financial exposure. I buy property insurance so I don't have to plan on suing some idiot.

I join US Sailing so I can take the lying SOB to the sailing authorities and have him barred from the next regatta... This is the right /wrong solution to the problem.. The clubs all belong to US Sailing and they agree to bar him from playing when the desicion is handed down once they are informed.

So... the penalty for lying is not being allowed to play the game anymnore.

The US Sailing prescriptions spell out the responsibility stuff.... Without the liablity rule imposed... Nothing really changes... If X refuses to take responsibility... I can take him up to US Sailing as well.

Even if X has liability insurance... he can tell his insurance company to tell you to take a hike... Then its HIS insurance company which decides toeither pay you off and drop his buisness or agree with him... and say... see you in court.

With respect to racing as a beginner...Tiger Mike had great advice... Know your limitations and don't go in to the fray until you are ready (skill wise). You will work your way up the skill ladder only by playing. Purchase liabilty insurance because you would be STUPID to not have it... EVEN IF YOU DON'T go racing. Purchase property insurance if you don't want to worry about the rest of the crap.

If you voluneteer to run a regatta... just go with the "Make them lie to my face plan" if you want any rule about liability at all (See Mary's point of view). (NOR states must have it etc etc ) ... You let the plaintiffs deal with their crap on their own.

Ah... the ugly details underneath the game we play.
Mark

Hi Caleb

So... is that show proof of insurance?
or collect proof of insurance?
or record proof of insurance information?

What's the standard of proof of insurance?
I have nice peice of paper .. graphcis etc from my company.... "you won't get a dime Inc" with a policy number of 0001"

This would seem to work for Hobie Cat nationals. (Does this make any difference what's so ever) ...

NOW,.... when X hits Y... an X is wrong ... What does the regatta organizer do with the info they have. X won't accept responsibility... X won't give up any insurance info...

Now what happens?

At the 2006 Hobie 20 Nationals my property/liability policy got looked over very closely. I was asked to point out the expiration date (policies can be very hard to read) and a second person was asked in to confirm its validity.

And coincidently, I just got off the phone with one of the participants in a port/starboard casualty of the second day of racing (he was on starboard).

His port bow was in good enough shape to continue racing the remainder of the week, even after sheering off the starboard transom of the port tacker clean as a whistle.

I asked him if he turned in a claim? Oh yes, called the following day, submitting the results of the protest. The regatta committee was not involved in any way. Port tacker admitted fault and obviously was insured as well. Suppose it was a happy ending to one of those things that can easily happen, although he's having a hard time finding two qoutes for FRP repair in Oklahoma.

I feel better knowing (or a least thinking) that everyone has insurance.

So John... what do you do if they don't like your proof of insurance... go home? What recourse do you have?

I am hard pressed to see how this 2nd person confirmed its validity... (more likely... he said OK to your credentials being good enough since he was in charge)

It sounds like you passed a look and smell test. They did not verify that you had insurance.

I can live with this policy... It seems capricious to me... but. Ok..

The regatta organizer did not keep a copy of your information. That is essential. in the accident you report.. the two parties settled the issue as they should. If they couldn't settle it... the injured party could not go the regatta staff and demand information ... they did not have any.

I am curious
Why exactly do you feel more comfortable that the sailors on the water have insurance.. Do you care where the money comes from that pays for your injury?

Do you think they don't have the cash or resources to pay your damage?

What if the guy says... Ok.. I broke your boat... I will take it for a week and fix it myself!

It sounds to me like.. People think that if X has insurance they will be more honorable and settle up. I hope peoples integrity is not dependent on their insurance line or bank account

Hi Mark. I just give them a photo copy of my insurance at reqistration. In my case, Pemco Mutual Insurance Company, Mariner Policy, Seattle. One page, has limits, dates,and boat description. I think son Tom has USAA. BTW we had an incident with a 18sq about 15years ago, while Tom was driving our Hobie 18. Pemco paid for all damage to the 18sq, and never raised our rates.

This is not insurance for the Regatta Sponsor, it is for the individual sailors. If there is an incident that involves injury or damage, be sure it goes to the protest committee. This record will help the injured party with the insurance claim.

Caleb

I went to a Dart 18 World Champs in the UK some years ago (301 Dart 18s on the start line).
My insurance details were collected and put in an envelope - the organisers purposely did not look at the details, so that they could not be held liable if there was anything wrong. During the event, when incidents occured, an assessor gave an estimate of the cost of repair, and the offender took out his chequebook under the eyes of the race committee and wrote a cheque - instant justice - it worked !

Happy Saint Patrick's Day to everyone around the World - especially Tim and others with Irish blood in their veins.
I'm heading off for a short overnight break <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Probably. Works well down here anyway.

Cheers,
Tiger Mike

I am wondering the same thing. When new sailors or first-time racers show up at a regatta just because they have heard about it and haven't actually seen a Notice of Race, how would they know they have to bring proof of liability insurance with them -- or that they even are required to have that insurance at all?

After driving 500 miles, I would have stood on my head until someone said "Let them play". Quite a burden to be versed in reading insurance policies.
After this experience what is the responsibility of those at the registration table? I hope their primary focus is welcoming everyone, answering questions regarding logistics of the event and NOT preparing to be an arbitrator. Requesting a policy copy seems adequate.


Call it naivety? I have no problem with someone fixing a boat themselves. We sail on limited funds. Family and home are number one, the racing is done literally on the scraps of the budget. First five hundred deductable comes right out of the sailing fund (ouch!). We wouldn't race mixed fleet events if insurance wasn't required. I'd be a nervous wreck, it wouldn't be fun.

Which comes back to your suggestion of recognition of all entrants that they are responsible for damages by their signature. I like that. Signature on an entrant form "should" be as good as producing a copy of your policy. Make certain everyone understands this.

Hi Caleb..

Give ... as in turn over... do not get back immediately the photocopy.

Same meaning as... Hobie nationals collected my and other competitors insurance information and /or a copy of my proof of insurance.

Or do you mean... you presented it at registration, they examined it closely (Hobie 20 NA example) and made a decision and returned your paper work immediately..

or they said... Yup... that is a peice of paper and you claim its your proof of insurance... OK by us.... Enter...

Big differences here and its the crux of my beef!

And what do you do with somebody who says they are self-insured?

This whole discussion is interesting to me, because Rick and I have never been to a regatta where we were required to show proof of liability insurance.

here in AUS i know our club got an cheaper insurance premium for public liability, rsq craft, and on water insurance if all the privately owned (racing/cruising) boats where self insured. To the point i had to show my papers when i signed up for the season.I also heard that a few years ago now that some officals here got sued personally for an event, so from there on we all have had to show insurance papers.
On a personal thing I always sail my boat as if now other bastard is insured out there, because i have ugly things on the beach afterwards between people , its just safer that way i know that ill probably never win but then ill never have boat repairs etc