I purchased a used 6.0 that came with a spinaker that has a deck launch system. I have only used it a few times and it seems a bit of a chore for the crew. I am wondering if it would be worth the money to go to a snuffer system, and also to a self tacking jib. I am in my 60's and only do recreational sailing on weekends, and a few short distance races a year. Miami to Key Largo and maybe one other. Any thoughts on which snuffer system would work best.
Thanks

You're worried about the crew whining? Seriously? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

A snuffer system will save you about 12 seconds on the hoist and douse and greatly reduces the pucker factor on the douse if it's really windy. It's still reasonable to carry the spinnaker in a bag on the trampoline for distance sailing - but around the cans, it will cost you some significant time to launch from the deck.

A self tacker too!? Geeesh, you really care for this crew person don't you? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The snuffer is definitley worth it. I would suggest talking to Rick Bliss at New England Catamarans. www.new-england-catamarans.com He was the leader of the whole 6.0 fleet charge in New England several years ago.
The New England 6.0 fleet at it's peak had a local sailor make up some sweet carbon snuffer heads just like the old end pole heads the I-20s came with but without the angle. There might be some around still. Rick also sold a carbon pole out of a place in Boston that went with the head. We used the Skip Elliot snuffer bags. I think that whole set up came out to around a grand. You could probably get a cheaper aluminum pole but keep in mind that the 6.0 has a much bigger spinnaker than the I-20, F-18 and etc.
If your boat came with the New England style spinnaker or similar (around 350sq. feet) then you just need to have patches added. If it came with the Worrell style (around 450sq. feet) spinnaker it may be a bit big to snuff. I was going to try adding patches to mine but never got around to it. I did however use the New England Style chute with snuffer and it worked great and I was able to hold my own with I-20s downwind and even pass them in lighter stuff.
I have 2 pictures of my snuffer set up in this album.
As far as the self tacking jib, it's nothing I ever considered because the 6.0 jib is what really gives the boat it's power and really makes it an awesome ride on a reach. It would be convienent but you'd have to invest in a much smaller jib and lose lots of power. It would definitley be easier on your crew.
One thing I would look at is the picture of my jib sheet system. It greatly improves the friendliness of the boat without the crosswire if your boat still has the stock set up.
-Todd

Ok, what I'm about to say might come off as blasphemy to the accepted notion of how a 6.0 should be rigged, but so be it, here goes...

I believe that the accepted approach to the 6.0 is wrong - that you keep the huge jib and add a large spinnaker. I believe what should be done to this boat is give it a good square top main, alter the jib to sheet to the front crossbeam, and run a flatter more modern kite like that on the Nacra-20. I have yet to try this, but for my experience base on this I have raced my 6.0 with stock sailplan, and with very nice Smyth sails (square top main, even bigger jib). The other 6.0 in our Fleet has used similar sails to the Smyth sails with the NE style spin on a snuffer rig.

The big jib on the 6.0 is nice for reaching, but I think the overlap with the main compromises things upwind, and the wire system is a bear. The tramp loops are a nice way to eliminate this, but I believe that leaves something to be desired as well. Get the jib trim wrong on a big overlapping jib and see how slow you can go on a fast boat..

But if the chute being used is capable of sailing at higher angles like the N-20 spins, the need for the big butt jib goes away and the boat has a better useable range under spinnaker. The more modern shaped flat top main can help recover lost power on close reaches. The only real downside I can see to this is in real light air stuff, but honestly I'm not convinced it will be that much.

If I end up keeping my 6.0 I'll be trying some of these things. Maybe I'll see what happens when the N-20 boards are used as well...

Flame on.

I talked to someone (I can't remember who, but it was someone whose opinion I valued) who wanted to take a N20 rig and put it on a 6.0 chassis - convinced that the hulls of the 6.0 are superior to the N20

I think in non-planing conditions, the 6.0 hulls are definitely superior. They're also more prone to bite you if you push to hard.

I wonder it that is do-able. Are the distances the same, between the mast step, bow tangs, daggerboards, etc? Will it work? I have thought about putting the F18 sails and spin. on a 5.5 without the bridle foil. I don't know if it would be ballanced corectly though.

You should contact Todd Bouton (send him a PM at the TCDYC site.) He has a Nacra 6.0NA with an I-20 spin and home made snuffer system that is both economical, easy to build and effective. It uses corrugated plastic pipe, roof fittings and zip ties. When he first unveiled it we rolled around lauging and proclaiming it would never work. After a couple of succesful trial sets and take downs on the beach we had to eat our words. I went out on the maiden test voyage as crew and can testify that the kite goes up and down just fine with his system. He runs the snuffer tube and pole between the foil and the bridles (below the foils it catches too much water in the rough stuff).

Self tackers are great for novice crews. With a resonably sized spinnaker on the boat (e.g. I-20) I don't think you will miss the big jib too much. Perhaps an I-20 jib and self tacker kit could be made to work. It's important to get the hoist height on the jib correct to get a reasonable sheeting angle.

Good luck with your modifications - they will all be supported by the UBCCU (United Beach Cat Crew Union).

Chris.

I see what you guys are saying by disagreeing with the bigger spinnaker. I would have thought the same thing having sailed F18s and I-20s.
However, last year (summer 2005) we had 4 or 5 I-20s at a regatta in Massachussets and 3 6.0s. It was my first regatta on the 6.0 and first time sailing it with the snuffer set up. The guy I bought my boat from who was within the top 3 best 6.0 sailors in New England at it's peak was also racing a much newer 6.0. On the first day in heavier air the previous owner of my boat beat me every race. He ended up ripping his spinnaker towards the end and was only able to find a I-20 spinnaker as a replacement for the 2nd and 3rd day. The 2nd and 3rd day were light to moderate and I beat him in all but one race and by large distances. It was clear that downwind I was faster with the bigger spinnaker, I was even passing the I-20s downwind.
This year at the statue it was a broad/ high beam reach after the start. The I-20s were able to carry their spinnakers much higher while I had to sail lower. My spinnaker was extremely shot and certainly not as fast as the new ones the I-20s were carrying. As the I-20s went high, I went as high as I could, double trapped and no where near as high as the I-20s. When we got to the statue some 18 miles later I was right on the heels of the 2 lead I-20s. Although I am sure I had to work harder as we were doubletrapped and manhandling the spinnaker, but that is always going to be the case when it comes to 6.0s and the I-20.
You might have something upwind though, I can see how the jib might negativley affect the main especially if the trim was wrong. I know when when we raced the I-20s in lighter to moderate stuff it seemed to me the 6.0 was a little slower and in heavier even slower. I can't say whether that was the jib or not.
When it comes down to it, the 6.0 is 20+ lbs heavier and needs power from somewhere.

Interesting to hear the first hand comparisons!

A couple of notes, not necessarily meant to poke holes just observations.

Switching from a large to a smaller spin needs to be paired up with different techniques - the smaller kite will need hotter angles to get going, using big kite techniques might not get the most out of the N-20 spin. The sheeting angles may not have been right as well as the luff.

The NE 6.0 and variants use the stock main and jib. Again, I would move to a more modern main cut to compliment the smaller kite and jib.

The 6.0 is still a fast boat, I guess I believe with proper rig development you wouldn't need to manhandle as much.

A number of years ago in the NE-100 I crewed on a Tornado that was going through the transition to the new rig. We had the original pin head main, single trap, but self-tacking jib and spinnaker. I remember coming into the Bay at the end of day one coming upon a 6.0 under spin that was barely under control with the big sail. We sailed right by it with less sail area and far less drama, not even flying a hull. Got me to thinking about it.

But in the end you may be right, maybe the 6.0 needs more ummph. But maybe not...

On the other hand if taking some of the edge off makes it a more enjoyable boat to sail, maybe that's ultimately better even if it results in a slower rating. In the end I still can't bring myself to part with my 6.0 even though I'm a N-20 convert!

Keith,
I remember that Tornado in the NE 100... I was sailing the Orange Hobie 18 w/spinnaker that year.
Some of those factors you pointed out might be right. Its tough to tell.
That NE 100 was before the NE style spinnaker came out. Likely they were using the Worrell style spinnaker, the really big one. I used the NE syle spinnaker which was smaller and flatter (no where near as flat as the I-20 chutes though).
I just sold my 6.0 to a guy in Annapolis a few weeks ago. I forget the name of the YC, i'd remember if you told me. It's right on the right after the Bay Bridge. Hes a nice guy but just upgraded from a Prindle 16. He's selling the worrell style spinnaker I gave him and possibly one of the jibs although I advised him not to on ebay.
-Todd

That's right, I remember you there as well! The 6.0 chute didn't seem as big as the Worrell chutes, but you're right that was pre-NE 6.0, so it could have been a biggee. I have a pic I took from a waterproof throw-away camara, I'll have to dig it out. I do remember when it was real light the 6.0s just motored away from us when there was no spin involved. Day 2 was gawd-awful painful... Pics of that race are on the WRCRA site, but for some reason the link to the larger pic of the 6.0 picture doesn't work.

Is your 6.0 on the East or West side of the Bay? Any idea if the owner might interested in joining on some of the reindeer games in Galesville or on the Bay in general? We've got two 6.0s active in the Fleet, one with the Smyth sails, one with RacerX sails (similar to the Smyth in dimension) with spin, and I'm sure they'd love a new friend to square off with! Could you PM contact info to me? Always hunting new blood...

Is the 6.0 guy at Podickory Point YC?? that is right near the bridge...

Yup thats it. Actually would one or both of you want to help him with it? If so want to PM me your emails and i'll forward them to him. I was honestly a little concerned for him handling the boat. He seemed like an intelligent guy and as long as he is and doesn't go out in soemthing he can't handle he'll be fine. The 6.0 is a different beast than the Prindle 16 though thats for sure. He is very excited though and is planning on taking it out on the next decent weather day (if he hasn't already).
I don't think he'll be racing anytime soon, maybe just for fun. He's also never used a spin and he said he was planning on getting used to the boat without it first.

We started a 6.0 project over here. More supposed for singlehanded sailing, it got the 3.3m wide 18sq beams.

Landenberger made a quite expensive 19 sq MAXX mainsail for it... which didn't work well. Switched to a boom and a standard triradial Torndado main and that was really the right move. Spi is also from the Tornado. Snuffer is the simple and affordable aluminium ring like produced by AHPC in Australia. Works great. Selftacking jib is the next move on the list. So what I am trying to say is that if you are interested to save money try to get second hand Tornado stuff. They had a time when they had frontbeam sheeting and not selftacking yet. Those sails you sometimes can buy very cheap although they havent been used much.
For the jib sheeting, we did the same modifications to some of our Taipan fleet. Instead of investing into a selftacker we just moved the rails and blocks to the frontbeam. You suddenly enjoy a free trampoline which allows your crew much more space. Your investment is only a used T jib and two blocks to make sheeting from the frontbeam a little easier. Anyhow, Murrays also have a selftacking system 'ready to go' in store suitable for the 6.0.

With a selftacker you will need to modify the rotation arm setup than, which would basically be easy if you change to a boom as you than can easily just flip it backwards and sheet it (like on some A cats and Tornados) from a hole in the tramp and a cleat close to the daggerboard. You actually can use those camcleats already there from the old jib tramp wire system.

So the simpliest modification would be to just invest in a 2nd hand or new jib and move your blocks and rails to the frontbeam and get the AHPC snufferring and bag. If you want to change mainsail to a more modern squaretop shape too, I strongly advice to change to a boom too.

Nacra Europe build the Nacra Se around ten years ago. It featured 2.8 m width and a taller carbon mast, a boom, a frontbeam sheeted smaller jib and a spi (no snuffers yet at that time) and outsailed the Tornados when Mitch Booth and Scott Anderson still talked with each other and sailed it Round Texel those days...

The pic attached is from a 6.0 Se

All the best with your project!

I have spent two or three hours with him on the tele. Girlfriend is driving his decision on club and location. Also, he thinks that part of the bay is easier to get to than G'ville. I've invited him to the Invasion and the awards party; I'll forward you his contact info. He has talked with Roger and I directed him to You both, Keith and Todd and even Mark. My hope is that he will realize g'ville is closer time wise then combine that with other boats to race he may be converted after spending his summer in traffic getting to his boat. I'll forward you his contact info. I also plan to have him crew for me on a Tuesday night, just not the first one.

6.0 spinny stuff.
We had an earlier generation of worrell spin, it was big, but not the monster some refer to. By my calcs. it was around 425sf. We were learning the technique of spin handling on cats, so I don't really know it potential. However, the RacerX spin we had built was somewhere in the 380ish range and was/is fast. We frustrated a couple of our N20 guys by being faster and lower than them, when I had really good crew. It was not based on the NE spec, it maximized luff length, shortened foot and was flat but not N20 flat. Also the leach was shorter to allow rear beam sheeting and better visibility under it. It is snuffable. I have threatened to put the RacerX 6.0 spin on the N20. that has gone over as Todd might say a tird in the punch bowl.