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politics, petroleum and climate #101560
03/26/07 07:08 AM
03/26/07 07:08 AM
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fin. Offline OP
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You can tell work's a little slow right now.

I was lamenting to myself about how angry and negative sounding the global warming thread got, so I figured. . . tack! Try a new direction.

These are things I would like to see attempted. And attempted without more government regulation and increased tax dollars for the average consumer.

1. More regenerative braking systems on large, fuel hungry vehicles. The truck that picks up my garbage is really big! In normal operation it accelerates at full throttle for 50 feet and then slams on the brakes. Surely a regenerative brake system would pay for itself, particularly when you think in terms of a whole fleet of these monsters. Same thing goes for any vehicle that operates in stop and go fashion i. e. UPS and mail trucks, school and city buses. Sure it's expensive, but so is fuel for these vehicles.

2. Reduced rush hour traffic. I work three days a week, twelve hour shifts. That reduces my commute by 40%! Think about it for a minute. How much fuel would that save if the 3/12 work week was the norm? And for me, it is a major quality of life issue. I hate sitting in traffic!! It won't work for everyone but, for most of us it could, and the potential savings is enormous.

3. Establishment of an "alternative" energy utility. Seventeen States, I think, offer tax incentives for private home owners to put solar panels on their roofs. I think it is up to $50,000 in New Jersey!

Florida is not one of them. And the power companies are not very receptive either. So, why not give them a little competition? Yes, the State would have to authorize a new utility, but it could be funded like any other utility. You sell bonds to the private sector to finance it. Then, strip mall developers and others, could retrofit or include solar power in their initial developement.

Florida also has a lot of citrus trees. A blight called "citrus canker" has wiped out, by one estimate, 17,000 acres of productive grove and nurseries. Why not encourage the citrus industry to get into "wind farms"? Again, with private sector funding, the tax payer is not burdened, and I believe day-one profitability can be achieved.

Thanks for tuning in, I think I'll have some breakfast and go for a walk.

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Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: fin.] #101561
03/26/07 08:07 AM
03/26/07 08:07 AM
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2. Reduced rush hour traffic. I work three days a week, twelve hour shifts. That reduces my commute by 40%! Think about it for a minute. How much fuel would that save if the 3/12 work week was the norm? And for me, it is a major quality of life issue. I hate sitting in traffic!! It won't work for everyone but, for most of us it could, and the potential savings is enormous.


Ever so incredibly slowly the 4/10 week has crept in to construction, even though ten hour days (at least in this industry) are proven to be more productive. The kicker here is the weather, 4/10's work for an indoor job. In making up for, or catching up from, rain/ice/snow days it will never be the norm. A shame too, construction workers love to drive their big trucks, hauling only themselves, a tool box and lunch pail back and forth to work.

Speaking of snarling traffic, construction workers have succeeded over the last 20 years in moving normal working hours back from 8 to 4:30, 7:30 to 4, and now 7 to 3:30 to avoid traffic.

Pete,
Just curious...how many times have you been called in on a day off for a meeting?


John H16, H14
Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: fin.] #101562
03/26/07 08:21 AM
03/26/07 08:21 AM
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
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Just a curiosity question about wind generators. Do all windmills have a maximum windspeed at which they are still efficient, and if the wind gets over a certain level do they self-destruct? I mean, they can only spin so fast; right? Sort of like a hull speed for a boat in the water.
Is there a way to feather them into the wind at some point? Could a tornado or a hurricane wipe out a whole wind field?

Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: fin.] #101563
03/26/07 08:29 AM
03/26/07 08:29 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
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Pete, I agree completely but I don't think Joe Sixpack is going to go along with it. I look to Europe, where they have been "in business" a lot longer than our young country. You know that they shut down most of the place for the entire month of August, for their summer vacation, but also because most of their (much older) buildings don't have air conditioning. They use much more public transportation than we do, they drive much smaller cars than we do, and there is almost no such thing over there as a "pickup truck".

So how did they get so far ahead of us when it comes to public transportation and fuel efficient cars? TAXES. They pay nearly 100% tax on every gallon (I'm sorry, I should say Liter) of gas. Until our we Americans "Feel the Pain" like they have been feeling for many years now, I don't see us moving to their system, although we do see smaller cars and even hybrids being sold, finally. And what brought that about? PAIN at the pump.

So, I think the first step is for America to levy a 100% tax on fuels. Then watch how quickly industry and the consumers jump on the Green bandwagon!

Oh, after the hurricanes of 2004, I called BP Solar, to try to order some solar panels for my home. They said they are "Sold Out". I asked where all the solar panels were going and they said, "New Jersy, because of the 70% tax refund for installing solar panels!" So there you go, Tax incentives DO work!

And, I did some research on Wind Generators, the suppliers I talked to say Florida is a very light air state, they said you need an AVERAGE of 14 knots of wind to make them efficient and we only have 5-8 in Florida. Still, you could cover North Dakota with them and sell the electricity nation wide.

Last edited by Timbo; 03/26/07 08:32 AM.

Blade F16
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Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: Mary] #101564
03/26/07 08:32 AM
03/26/07 08:32 AM
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The wind generators have built in safeties that will feather the blades at certain wind speeds to keep them together. Of course Prof. Wouter will chime in and call me an uneducated dumb-butt and spout the technical aspects of the wind generators and why I'm wrong... but I'm not... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ya'll have a nice day!

Clayton

Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: Clayton] #101565
03/26/07 08:40 AM
03/26/07 08:40 AM
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So, I think the first step is for America to levy a 100% tax on fuels. Then watch how quickly industry and the consumers jump on the Green bandwagon!


Should be:

Quote
So, I think the first step is for America to levy a 100% tax on fuels. Then watch how quickly industry and the consumers vote out the Green bandwagon and put pro-tax-break politicians in power!


For truth.

Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: _flatlander_] #101566
03/26/07 08:42 AM
03/26/07 08:42 AM
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fin. Offline OP
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. . .Just curious...how many times have you been called in on a day off for a meeting?


"That is the nonsense up with which I will not put!" - Winston Churchill.

He was talking about something else, but it is apropos. I don't do meetings! Once the mortgage was retired, I just started saying no!

It used to happen a lot, and I hated it!

Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: MauganN20] #101567
03/26/07 08:57 AM
03/26/07 08:57 AM
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fin. Offline OP
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Quote
So, I think the first step is for America to levy a 100% tax on fuels. Then watch how quickly industry and the consumers jump on the Green bandwagon!


!

Should be:

Quote
So, I think the first step is for America to levy a 100% tax on fuels. Then watch how quickly industry and the consumers vote out the Green bandwagon and put pro-tax-break politicians in power!


For truth.


Maugan, hell just froze over! I agree with you on something! I don't disagree with Tim philosophically, but practically speaking it pr'lly wouldn't work.

Anybody 'member the "Boston Tea Party"! That had a rather different ending than anyone expected

Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: fin.] #101568
03/26/07 09:33 AM
03/26/07 09:33 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Well that's the problem. There just are not too many people out there willing to vote for a politician who runs on a Tax INCREASE! So obviously they don't run on that! We did elect Al Gore, who won the popular vote but didn't win the Electoral College. So, who will we elect in 2008 and what is his (or her) possition on alternative fuels??


Blade F16
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Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: Timbo] #101569
03/26/07 09:37 AM
03/26/07 09:37 AM
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Wind turbines, generally located near existing high voltage transmission lines, are meeting continued opposition from the Tree Huggers in Kansas, specifically in the Flint Hills which is some prime (windy) location. As every square inch of earth is an ecosystem in its on right, and turbines pose no threat, the Huggers only arguements against is they'd break up the "view".

What is so majestic about boringly endless miles of rolling hills? How will an 80 meter tall tower with 88 meter diameter rotors spaced every 1/2 mile deter from the "view"? IMO they will break up the monotamy. Each tower is capable of producing 2.1 to 2.5 Megawatts of power and have been used for years in CA. I don't understand why the central plains aren't riddled with them already...must be political.


John H16, H14
Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: _flatlander_] #101570
03/26/07 09:44 AM
03/26/07 09:44 AM
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The other argument against them I have heard is, "They kill birds..." Well, if a bird is that stupid, it needs to be killed. Cars and trucks on our highways kill thousands of birds every day, yet no tree hugger is trying to stop cars from going down the road! The real issue is "free energy" vs. paying some oil or coal burning utility for it. You see, there is no money in free anything. (by that I mean no money going to politicians through lobbiests)


Blade F16
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Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: _flatlander_] #101571
03/26/07 10:17 AM
03/26/07 10:17 AM
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We got our first wind farm on Maui last year. They're arrayed along a ridge that can be seen from the south part of the island. After they were finished a number of letters were printed in the local paper screaming about the visual pollution. The ridge is made up of volcanic rock, brown grass and mangy looking trees. Visual pollution indeed!

One letter writer demand they be painted to blend into the dead grass. The reason they're painted white is to keep from killing the birds.

The only downside I can see is they only generate power when the wind blows so the power company can't rely on them. That means they still have to buy and maintain diesel generators. Luckily we have consistant winds for most of the year.


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Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: Timbo] #101572
03/26/07 10:18 AM
03/26/07 10:18 AM
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Actually, the US Government is providing a large subsidy for wind powered generators. There is a GE turbine plant down the road and they've converted over to making HUGE wind powered generators. They stage the main fiberglass body housings in the main parking lot - they're roughly 18 feet tall by 20 by about 30 feet. I'm not sure if there is big as some I've seen in Germany though. The plant has reverted to this because of the subsidy - otherwise it wouldn't be financially possible for them to build them and it mostly saved a large portion of the facility because apparently the demand for gas powered turbines has declined (backup generators).


Jake Kohl
Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: _flatlander_] #101573
03/26/07 10:27 AM
03/26/07 10:27 AM
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Wind turbines, generally located near existing high voltage transmission lines, are meeting continued opposition from the Tree Huggers in Kansas, specifically in the Flint Hills which is some prime (windy) location. As every square inch of earth is an ecosystem in its on right, and turbines pose no threat, the Huggers only arguements against is they'd break up the "view".

What is so majestic about boringly endless miles of rolling hills? How will an 80 meter tall tower with 88 meter diameter rotors spaced every 1/2 mile deter from the "view"? IMO they will break up the monotamy. Each tower is capable of producing 2.1 to 2.5 Megawatts of power and have been used for years in CA. I don't understand why the central plains aren't riddled with them already...must be political.


The electricity bill hasn't hit the "$3 a gallon mark" or whatever it is for a household.

Fellas, hugging trees is fun! The first thing I did when I had this house built was to plant an oak tree. They are also nice to look at and lots of birds and squirrels like them. Plus, they're great for cooking dead pigs!

Okay, so how 'bout photo voltaics. Lots of flat roofs in America's strip malls. And, if they are wired into the electrical grid they are another source of income for businesses.

Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: fin.] #101574
03/26/07 10:39 AM
03/26/07 10:39 AM
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Okay, so how 'bout photo voltaics. Lots of flat roofs in America's strip malls. And, if they are wired into the electrical grid they are another source of income for businesses.

The Return On Investment (ROI) is still pretty bad. I looked into a 6KW system last year. The break even point was about 15 years. And, the silicon slowly degrades and would have to be replaced after 15 years.

The good news is more silicon manufacturers are coming on line, R&D is developing cheaper, more efficient silicon, and there are more government programs to reduce the price.


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Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: hobie1616] #101575
03/26/07 11:16 AM
03/26/07 11:16 AM
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Pete, and all, here are some web sites I found last year while researching alternative energy (Solar and Wind) for my kid's science fair projects.

http://www.ases.org/
http://www.eere.energy.gov/
http://www.solartoday.org
http://www.ongrid.net/
http://www.awea.org/projects/
http://www.uni-solar.com/index.asp

That should keep you busy! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

What I found out after many days of research was that at today's oil prices, oil is still the cheapest way to produce electricity. That is why I said we will need a 100% TAX on oil use to get us off oil and to develop other forms of energy. Once the -other- industry is up and running,the cost to produce energy using wind/solar will of course come down. But until it is cheaper to use solar/wind than oil, I don't see a whole lot of people lining up to buy it.

Don't get me wrong, I am fully in support of developing solar and wind vs. more oil use, but we (all of you) are not the "Average" American. Being tuned in to sailing as you are, you are much more educated about what wind and sun can do. The average Jet Ski rider can't begin to figure it out.

Last edited by Timbo; 03/26/07 11:23 AM.

Blade F16
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Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: hobie1616] #101576
03/26/07 11:26 AM
03/26/07 11:26 AM
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Tim, you wouldn't have to INCREASE the tax on fuel, just drop the subsidies given by the gub-ment to the fuel producers. This will boost the at-pump price to about $3.75 per US Gal (87 octane) and about $4.00 for 93 octane.

But cut subsidies? Someone already mentioned hell freezing over....

And with the destruction of FL citrus, (canker and the new one, greening) expect juice prices to get higher because the stores think they can pull it off... Nurseries should replant the citrus, as its good for reducing CO2, improving groundwater, habitat for wildlife, and better than development (which is where most of it is ending up).

Agriculture is the oldest industry (Adam tended to the garden before Eve even showed up - but that's another discussion), and is critically dependent on environmental stewardship for its very existence. So, in effect, farmers were the first environmentalists.

I agree that we're not windy enough to successfully run wind farms, but we should look forward to a blended approach (coal, petrol, gas, solar, nuke, etc.) to lower dependence on any one fuel source, as well as increase dependability

Are you saying that even if solar panels are "the right thing to do" you won't put them up because no one is giving you a discount? Is it "right" only when it's cheap?

What about hydro-generators that work off the Gulf Stream? What is that, about a 4 kt average current?


Jay

Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: waterbug_wpb] #101577
03/26/07 11:35 AM
03/26/07 11:35 AM
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Mr. Stank, I did enquire what it would take to convert my house to completely "off grid" solar. The answer was about $45,000 in solar panels, plus instalation, etc. The break even, given my $600/mo. electric bill was about 80 months, and then the solar panels would have to be replaced shortly there after. But I have seriously considered it. The one thing I could not get an answer for from the Solar Panel people was, at what wind speed do my solar panels fly off my roof? Before the 3 hurricanes, I wouldn't have even worried about it, but now...well, I doubt if they would survive 16 hours of 120 mph wind. But then I thought, hey, I'll mount them on removeable brackets, take them off before the storm hits, and mount up my big butt Wind Generator for the storm!

But when I asked the local building code people about that, they said Wind Generators are forbiden by code. Might hurt the birds...

Here's a thought. I ride my bike 10-20 miles a day, when I'm home. How about if I bring the bike indoors, hook it up to an alternator and that to my electrical panel. Then ride my bike in front of the TV for an hour or two, and sell my hard earned electricity back to the Utility Co.?! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

And that Gulf Stream Hydro Generator of yours? You might hurt the fish! But dumping all that polution into the ocean? That's ok I guess.

OK, here's one other idea I had, someone with some real Nuke Engineering schooling tell me why it won't work:

Build a bunch of Nuke Plants, 200 feet UNDER GROUND. That way, if there were ever a massive problem, you just fill in the hole. I mean, they test real nukes underground all the time, right?

Last edited by Timbo; 03/26/07 11:40 AM.

Blade F16
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Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: fin.] #101578
03/26/07 11:39 AM
03/26/07 11:39 AM
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Remember the oil emargo and then the tax credits given by the Carter administration? Hell, I was a local chapter member of the Solar Energy Society. We were doing infiltration testing, jamming every possible crack with foam, blowing insulation eveywhere, installing steel siding, double and triple pane windows, 2x6 exterior walls with interior barriers, heat pumps, solar, log and earth contact homes were all the rage.

A great deal of awareness and research occured then which developed quite a head of steam then oops...administration change, no more tax credit... back to incredibly inefficient western framing.(must be political)


John H16, H14
Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: _flatlander_] #101579
03/26/07 11:45 AM
03/26/07 11:45 AM
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It was entirely political. You will remember that Ronny Reagan took over after Carter. One of the first things he un-did was to repeal the gas mileage standards Carter had set in place back in 1976. By now, if they were left in place, we should all be getting at least 40 mpg. in every car produced. The big auto manufactures and the oil companies didn't like that. So here we are, 30 years later, getting 20 mpg, or only 10 on a F350 dualie-diesle. Seen all the Mom's in Hummers in the school pickup lines? Brilliant.


Blade F16
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