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Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: I20RI] #101600
03/26/07 03:43 PM
03/26/07 03:43 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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I20RI, I agree and like I asked above, why not build the Nuke Plants underground? They test Nuke bombs underground. So if there is ever an accident like TMI, no big deal, fill in the hole and dig another one. I mean they even store the spent rods underground, right? And I think France has quite a few nukes, I don't hear too much -bad- about them.


Blade F16
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Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: Timbo] #101601
03/26/07 04:11 PM
03/26/07 04:11 PM
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I don't think you'd wanna do it in Florida because of the aquafirs and limestone substrate. Not NIMBY, just not a good idea here.

Why do Nukes have to be so big? Couldn't you build small manageable ones and link them together on the same site. I remember reading somewhere that there are research reactors no bigger than a bowling ball. True or no?

Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: fin.] #101602
03/26/07 04:14 PM
03/26/07 04:14 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
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The do have smaller ones that power the Navy's ships and Subs, so I guess they could put one in every small town in America. They wouldn't have to dig such a big hole then! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> The problem then is how do you dispose of the waste, because nobody wants to be the truck driver, all the way to New Mexico! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


Blade F16
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Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: Timbo] #101603
03/26/07 04:27 PM
03/26/07 04:27 PM
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The do have smaller ones that power the Navy's ships and Subs, so I guess they could put one in every small town in America. They wouldn't have to dig such a big hole then! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> The problem then is how do you dispose of the waste, because nobody wants to be the truck driver, all the way to New Mexico! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


Now I'm breakin' out the NIMBY! Actually, the military has some pretty big installations. Ft. Bliss, Texas. Ft. Sill Oklahoma, the Avon Park bombing range. I was thinking places like that, rather than downtown Cleveland.

Where is Three Mile Island exactly?

Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: fin.] #101604
03/26/07 05:08 PM
03/26/07 05:08 PM
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
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What's a NIMBY?

Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: Mary] #101605
03/26/07 06:07 PM
03/26/07 06:07 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
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Mary, NIMBY is an acronymn for Not In My Back Yard. It means; I'm fine with it, as long as you build it somewhere else!

And Three Mile Island is an island in a river near Middletown, Pensylvania. You can see it on Google Earth.

Last edited by Timbo; 03/26/07 06:36 PM.

Blade F16
#777
Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: _flatlander_] #101606
03/26/07 08:39 PM
03/26/07 08:39 PM
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Northfield Mn
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Ever so incredibly slowly the 4/10 week has crept in to construction, even though ten hour days (at least in this industry) are proven to be more productive.


I miss working 40 hr weeks. I've been working 7/12 for too long. My shop is at home, (or my home is at the shop), so that saves on the fuel.... Except the 600+ miles a week running to job sites, and picking up supplies.


I'm boatless.
Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: Karl_Brogger] #101607
03/26/07 08:58 PM
03/26/07 08:58 PM
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Northfield Mn
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Sorry I jumped in before reading the whole thread. I briefly, semi-looked into buying a windmill, a large one. The college in my home town put one up two summers ago with a cost of 1.1 mil. I looked at it purely as an investment opportunity being it has a 10 year return. But that is if you are the one using the electricity, vs just selling it back to the utility company. So it sorta relative, you need a really big electric bill to justify fronting that kind of capital to make the numbers work. As far as killing birds that is more of a problem with the older generation windmills, the smaller ones you see spinning really fast. I think the newer ones max out around 45 rpm... I think. I'm sure it varies on size, been a while since I checked into it. New generation ones are fairly quiet without too much of the WHOOSH as the blades turn. And when it is really really windy they shut em down. They just feather the props and turn them into the wind. I just know that had I actually gone forward with something like that, it would have been the least windy year on record. Like the first month I had my first boat. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Total guess here, but I would think that nuclear would be the cheapest, safest, cleanest, and efficient way to make electricity. OK the radioactive thing sucks but it is managable. I have a cousin that is a nuclear clean up tech. He's a project manager of some sort that does the clean up at nuclear sites. He told me that three mile island was blown out of proportion, that there wasn't any real danger. Had the proper steps not been taken like they had then, yes there would have been issues. Chernobyl, I mean come on, if anyone can screw something up in biblical proportions its the Russians. What year did three mile island incident happen? Has technology made it safer? Other than multihulls, and champagne its probably the only thing france has gotten right.

Last edited by sogncab; 03/26/07 09:11 PM.

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Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: Timbo] #101608
03/26/07 10:06 PM
03/26/07 10:06 PM
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Michigan
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The do have smaller ones that power the Navy's ships and Subs, so I guess they could put one in every small town in America. They wouldn't have to dig such a big hole then! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> The problem then is how do you dispose of the waste, because nobody wants to be the truck driver, all the way to New Mexico! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


Nuclear is clearly the way to go these days. In fact, lets all pool our money and we could buy a big ship with a decent sized nuclear reactor and we can go around to all the places that have power outages and hook into the grid and sell the electricity! I would rather have a nuc reactor in my back yard than a coal fired plant. The newer designs have passive safety mechanisms that rely on nothing more complicated than gravity when the [censored] hits the fan.

Last edited by PTP; 03/26/07 10:07 PM.
Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: PTP] #101609
03/26/07 11:44 PM
03/26/07 11:44 PM
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Issaquah, WA, USA
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Quote
Quote
The do have smaller ones that power the Navy's ships and Subs, so I guess they could put one in every small town in America. They wouldn't have to dig such a big hole then! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> The problem then is how do you dispose of the waste, because nobody wants to be the truck driver, all the way to New Mexico! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


Nuclear is clearly the way to go these days. In fact, lets all pool our money and we could buy a big ship with a decent sized nuclear reactor and we can go around to all the places that have power outages and hook into the grid and sell the electricity! I would rather have a nuc reactor in my back yard than a coal fired plant. The newer designs have passive safety mechanisms that rely on nothing more complicated than gravity when the [censored] hits the fan.


Not as far fetched as it may seem. Years ago when a storm took out the power on the south end of Kauai, the Navy came to the rescue. Plugged a ship into the grid, and provided power. Not sure if it was a Nuke.

Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: H17cat] #101610
03/27/07 03:47 AM
03/27/07 03:47 AM
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Didn't they pull an aircraft carrier into N.Y. harbor after 9/11, to provide power to the cleanup site?

Nuclear is still scarey to me. But it may be the only thing between us and a new dark age so I quess we need to get it right.

Turkey Point is a nuclear plant in South Florida that no one ever hears about, because nothing ever goes wrong. The last thing I heard was that it is nearing the end of its usful life and will have to be replaced. That and Castro was planning to bomb it at one time.

Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: fin.] #101611
03/27/07 08:20 AM
03/27/07 08:20 AM
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St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
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Ask and you shall receive.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6913415/

This is a story about a proposed Nuclear plant for a small town in Alaska.

It's a very interesting idea with some big security concerns.

Mike Hill


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Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: H17cat] #101612
03/27/07 10:36 AM
03/27/07 10:36 AM
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“an island in the Pacific....
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Years ago when a storm took out the power on the south end of Kauai, the Navy came to the rescue. Plugged a ship into the grid, and provided power. Not sure if it was a Nuke.

Caleb,

It didn't quite work out that way. The Navy did come in but the hurricane had wiped out the grid so the power didn't get very far.


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Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: Timbo] #101613
03/27/07 10:44 AM
03/27/07 10:44 AM
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St. Louis, MO
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The main holdup for supply all home depots across the country is state tax incentives. As many of us know the initial installation cost is pretty high. So, it makes better business sense to sell to markets where we can move product faster. The demand is there for solar. I was brought on board to help increase our factory's output. I can't give you any more specifics as solar is a very competetive industry. If you want to see solar panels in your local Home Depots talk to you state legislature to have them implement tax incentives or the like for alternative energy.

If it makes you feel and better even I don't get a discount.


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Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: fin.] #101614
03/27/07 10:53 AM
03/27/07 10:53 AM
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St. Louis, MO
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There is also one in Seabrook, NH. I lived 45 minutes form there for two years before I evven knew it was there. That was because of the security concern after 9/11. I have no problems with nuclear power, but I am a fan of being independant of the power company. The section of the grid I'm on now is awful. Last year any time the wind blew over 30 kts the power went out. Plus the power company decided to jack up my rates 150% (may only 100%, but still...) over the next few years. It would be nice to not have to worry about that stuff anymore. And no, I do not have a problem doing my own maintainence.


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Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: hobienick] #101615
03/27/07 02:18 PM
03/27/07 02:18 PM
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Naples, FL
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I recall some research on sodium nuclear reactors which operated at far greater efficiency and generated almost no waste. There were serious engineering issues to overcome (corrosive issues when moisture hit the molten sodium), but I would think that in the 30 years since their initial experiments that they would have figure these out.

And Pete's comments regarding citrus are valid, although I would be comfortable saying those general drawbacks are prevalent in any crop (wheat, corn, sugar, etc.).

But I don't know what point you were making about that. Should we stop growing food in large parcels by people trained for a specific crop and return to subsistence farming? I know of no agricultural area that doesn't suffer from each and every point you outlined.

Or should we just buy our food from other areas (or countries) that have cheaper labor?

I am wary of the danger of competition between energy production and food production. It can only end badly...

Could Florida land be used more efficiently? Perhaps. How much CO2 and other waste is generated by the production of solar panels? Is this offset by the energy generation over the recommended lifespan of the product?

Not saying citrus is better, but the 30 year effective (productive) life of a tree generates a good bit of food, and during the same period, removes a good chunk of CO2 from the atmosphere. Don't know how much CO2 the 125# per acre of N fertilizer produces, but I would think it is offset for the most part.


I wish to hear more on this catsailing/farming site. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 03/27/07 02:24 PM.
Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: waterbug_wpb] #101616
03/27/07 04:51 PM
03/27/07 04:51 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
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Jay, I think you've hit on something here. What about sail powered farm tractors??! Kind of like those Blow carts but as a tractor.

Or how about electric tractors. And what about putting wind generators in the farm fields, and still grow crops beneath them, cultivated by electric tractors, charged by the same wind generators. Two birds with one stone.


Blade F16
#777
Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: hobienick] #101617
03/27/07 04:55 PM
03/27/07 04:55 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
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Hey Hobinick, I grew up in Hampton, NH. While I was in High School they were building that Seabrook Nuke Plant. Because of the TMI accident the second reactor never came on line, and the company that owned it nearly went bankrupt with all the delays. To survive they had to sell off the electricity to New York, Conn. and even Quebeck I think. NH ended up with only about 10% of the output!


Blade F16
#777
Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: waterbug_wpb] #101618
03/27/07 07:07 PM
03/27/07 07:07 PM
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. . .I don't know what point you were making about that. Should we stop growing food in large parcels by people trained for a specific crop and return to subsistence farming? I know of no agricultural area that doesn't suffer from each and every point you outlined.


My point is: trees take a long time to reach maturity and citrus is not a staple crop. Solar "farming" can become profitable much more quickly. It's just a better business plan.

Corn, wheat, soybeans, melons and most vegetable crops are annuals. In fact, corn is a "heavy feeder" and depletes soil quickly. Soy beans are a legume and actually enrich soil. That kind of crop rotation has been sound agronomic practice for decades, probably for centuries.

When you invest in citrus it is a decades long committment.

Last edited by Tikipete; 03/27/07 07:14 PM.
Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: fin.] #101619
03/27/07 07:58 PM
03/27/07 07:58 PM
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Northfield Mn
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The only problem with solar is if the sun isn't shining, you aren't getting any power. Geo thermal is quite successfull in Iceland. Enough to grow fruit commercially in greenhouses there. Newer solar panels work pretty good now even in cloudy conditions, but then you still rely on batteries at night. Potential problems with having a huge bank of batteries sitting in your basement. LED lights have gotten affordable. I've considered when I build a new house to do them through out. The draw is next to nothing compared to a mono-filiment bulb. If everyone could afford to switch over to a low voltage system like that what would that save us in energy across the country?


I'm boatless.
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