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Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: waterbug_wpb] #101620
03/27/07 08:21 PM
03/27/07 08:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Quote
Or should we just buy our food from other areas (or countries) that have cheaper labor?


No, just cheaper property.


Jake Kohl
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: Jake] #101621
03/27/07 08:32 PM
03/27/07 08:32 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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The U.S. provides the rest of the planet with grain.


I'm boatless.
Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: Karl_Brogger] #101622
03/28/07 05:18 AM
03/28/07 05:18 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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The technology is already here. All we need is new legislation to "outlaw" the old technology, and end it's production. Much like the leaded gasoline was outlawed in favor of No-lead gasoline, and catalytic converters, etc. were all legislated into production nation wide, we need similar laws to get rid of the old, inefficient technology and bring the new stuff into the mainstream. Where do we get those laws? Be careful who you vote for.


Blade F16
#777
Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: Timbo] #101623
03/28/07 09:42 AM
03/28/07 09:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 198
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I wouldnt tout the US catalytic legislation as a success. To reduce Nox, the peak combustion temperature was reduced by adding gasoline. (richer mix) To get rid of the hydrocarbons, air pumps added air so that the excess gasoline would be burnt in the catalytic converter. This could only increase the total carbon dioxide emmision (the emmisions were on a % basis- go figure) and reduce power and efficiency, encouraging bigger engines, and the truck loophole led to the SUV craze.
Europe on the other hand, had expensive gas: they drove smaller, more efficient cars that even without emmision laws (South Africa) didn't produce the sheer weight of nasties per person per mile travelled.
I cannot understand how people in the face of overwhelming evidence of goverment inefficiency, want the gov to fix things in complicated ways.
To get the government to do anything. you have to pay for it in taxes. Then these taxes pay for their collection, the comittees to decide, the incentive program to get the public to buy in, and the actual change (paid for with the "change" left over) About this time the gov policy changes, and the private sector that rallied behind the movement gets left out in the cold and pulls their capital. (Ethanol - Brazil is/was getting taxed about 80% import duty on ethanol to the US) If the gov left it alone, we would have been substituting more foreign oil with Brazillian ethanol (preferable) and if the gov was not circuitously supporting foreign oil imports and domestic refining, our gas would have been costing a lot, like everyone elses, and other energy sources would be gaining a foothold.
(and domestic ethanol production such as it was, would not have been able to compete with Brazilian ethanol, but then Domestic sugar would not have needed to be protected as much, because the ethanol market from cane would have stabilized the world sugar glut)
Right after they (try) fix our education system, we'll ask them to fix our health system. Scary.
Do you get a realistic tax break for sending your kid to private school? Do you get a tax break by not having kids, and therefore not burdening the gov with their education etc? Do you get a tax break by earning more money than others, and therefore being less likely to burden the social services, and obviously paying more taxes anyway by buying more and indirectly employing others?

Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: davidtilley] #101624
03/28/07 11:01 AM
03/28/07 11:01 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 306
St. Louis, MO
hobienick Offline
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St. Louis, MO
When I do finally buy a house I do want to install solar and/or wind power. I do not plan to be off the grid, but sell back to the power company. That way I will not need batteries and can offset my costs substantially (and, if I'm lucky, actually make a small profit). I would be gone during the daytime and using very little power. This is the power companies peak time so I would be helping reduce the stations load. If a large number of people did this they could effectively reduce the mount of carbon based fuels needed to produce electricity, but still benefit from the "reliability" of being on the grid.

speaking to the questions of how badly does the production of the solar panels pollute. I can speak to only the plant I work in. We have a very rigorous waste treatment program and are limited in the amount of water we can put into the city sewer system. Most of the chemicals we use we recyle and reuse. I'm not sure of the actual amount of electricity we use, but it is fairly standard for a manufacturing plant of our size. We are also constantly searching more environmentaly friendly chemicals and process to use. And, the benefit of our products is they do not produce any kind of emissions when in use, they reduce the customers "carbon footprint".


Nick

Current Boat
Looking for one

Previous Boats
'84 H16
'82 H18 Magnum
'74 Pearson 30
St. Louis, MO
Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: hobienick] #101625
03/28/07 11:31 AM
03/28/07 11:31 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
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Maybe I'm off base again, but Pete, are you telling me that all fruit/nut tree crops are not worth the space and should be turned to solar? California will be pretty pissed. And we won't have apples, pears, citrus, grapes, nuts, etc. on the dinner table. We'll all die of scurvy!

Yes, annual crops are more "productive" the first few years (before the citrus tree grows into commercial production - 5 years), but also require more inputs and babysitting.

I think the last time I looked, it cost $900 per acre per year to grow/maintain a citrus tree on the flats (not the ridge). In most years, you can break even on your fruit/juice. You spend about $1300 per acre for tomatoes, and a little less for potatoes/peppers/strawberries. Soybeans don't grow this far south (too much disease)

How much would an acre of solar panels cost? How often would they be replaced? My recollection was that efficiency declined steadily after about 1 year in the sun. Efficiency also decreases with increases in temperature, and I'll bet those bad boys get awful hot in the sub-tropical sun...

But if it's better to have solar here, why isn't it better to have solar everywhere they are farming??

Put the dang solar panels in the Sahara and Gobi deserts. I'm not aware of any other use for those areas.

And grow food in America. Or else other countries could hold us hostage for food supplies.

Where else should we grow our food?

Here's another dumb question. Is Gore an investor or stockholder for any of the technologies he implicates as "solutions" to global warming? Could there be an agenda here?

Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 03/28/07 11:32 AM.

Jay

Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: hobienick] #101626
03/28/07 11:42 AM
03/28/07 11:42 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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But does the plant that produces the solar panels have any solar panels on the roof, to help offset the electricity required to produce them?


Blade F16
#777
Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: waterbug_wpb] #101627
03/28/07 12:39 PM
03/28/07 12:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
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fin. Offline OP
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Quote
Maybe I'm off base again, but Pete, are you telling me that all fruit/nut tree crops are not worth the space and should be turned to solar? California will be pretty pissed. And we won't have apples, pears, citrus, grapes, nuts, etc. on the dinner table. We'll all die of scurvy!

Yes, annual crops are more "productive" the first few years (before the citrus tree grows into commercial production - 5 years), but also require more inputs and babysitting.

I think the last time I looked, it cost $900 per acre per year to grow/maintain a citrus tree on the flats (not the ridge). In most years, you can break even on your fruit/juice. You spend about $1300 per acre for tomatoes, and a little less for potatoes/peppers/strawberries. Soybeans don't grow this far south (too much disease)

How much would an acre of solar panels cost? How often would they be replaced? My recollection was that efficiency declined steadily after about 1 year in the sun. Efficiency also decreases with increases in temperature, and I'll bet those bad boys get awful hot in the sub-tropical sun...

But if it's better to have solar here, why isn't it better to have solar everywhere they are farming??

Put the dang solar panels in the Sahara and Gobi deserts. I'm not aware of any other use for those areas.

And grow food in America. Or else other countries could hold us hostage for food supplies.

Where else should we grow our food?

Here's another dumb question. Is Gore an investor or stockholder for any of the technologies he implicates as "solutions" to global warming? Could there be an agenda here?


Citrus! Just Florida citrus! Florida is an old pleistocene(?) beach! It's just sand!

Walk out into an orange grove sometime and scoop a handful of the "growing medium" up. It's just sand! It has little if any organic matter.

Even the muck around our lakes is nutrient deficient.

Much of Florida agriculture is basically just hydroponic farming. While you're in that grove, listen. You should hear a huge diesel engine pumping a zillion gallons of water onto a bottomless sand pit!

Last edited by Tikipete; 03/28/07 12:42 PM.
Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: waterbug_wpb] #101628
03/28/07 12:43 PM
03/28/07 12:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Where else should we grow our food?

Oceans? I think there was something a few years ago about growing crops in saltwater. Can't remeber, maybe it was just the nutritional benifits of eating seawead. Yuck <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Quote
Is Gore an investor or stockholder for any of the technologies he implicates as "solutions" to global warming? Could there be an agenda here?

Probably to some extant, while else do it? Motion means motive.


I'm boatless.
Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: fin.] #101629
03/28/07 01:04 PM
03/28/07 01:04 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
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fin. Offline OP
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[quote]. . But if it's better to have solar here, why isn't it better to have solar everywhere they are farming??

Put the dang solar panels in the Sahara and Gobi deserts. I'm not aware of any other use for those areas.


I'm not suggesting that you plow-up productive groves. However, as stated earlier, we've lost about 70,000 acres of grove to canker (if you believe the estimate). And, there is still no cure for canker. The only "treatment" is to destroy the affected trees and all those around them.

If you have a forty acre grove and you loose five acres to canker, what are you gonna do? Plant new trees? Or, look for an alternative business plan!

I have an idea! Why don't you call Florida Community Bank in Immokalee and ask them if they'll loan you money to buy an orange grove. I'd like to hear what they say.

Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: fin.] #101630
03/28/07 03:29 PM
03/28/07 03:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Not to start a fight, as you do have valid points, but many moons ago I WAS a citrus "dirt" farmer in overseeing 2500 acres.

A few points for those who have never spent time sweating in the fields:

Yes, it is beach sand that the crops grow in. Smart growers take advantage of this situation because hydroponic growing is the most efficient means of production. "Gentleman" farmers just throw a lot of money at a grove and over spray, fertilize, water, etc. Basically wasting money and messing up their grove.

Putting the nutrients exactly in the root zone of the tree maximizes uptake, minimizes weeds, and allows the grower (to some extent) to control the maturation of the crop (bloom, size, coloring, etc.) Also allows grower to tailor the carbohydrate cycle of the tree.

Crap, even the sprayers are computerized and turn off the spray between trees (and cut the rate for shorter trees), saving tons of spray material. Spray materials have improved to reduce side effects on environment, allowing greater pest control using beneficial insects, plants, and fungi. We had the most cost effective pest control program in place using only spray (light vegetable) oil, copper and sulfur. No need to use weird chemicals because we stayed tight on our scouting, pruning, and water/nutrient management.

Trees have microjet irrigation under them that put water only in the root zone. Fertigation through the micro jets allows for exact placement of nutrients.

You can't control the weather and yes, sometimes periods of heavy rains do move fertilizer out of the root zone.

Each tree is now located using GPS, and their overall condition is graded by satellite (helps in crop estimates), but there is still no better method of increasing production than footprints in the grove.

Most groves in the flats now have their own water retention facilities (usually about 10% of the total acreage is water retention) so that they basically supply (and recycle) their own water. Yes, the diesel pumps run (could be converted to biodiesel), but only because you can't use electric pumps - they shut off power to growers during freeze events because homeowners want to be toasty. No power during freeze means no freeze protection = dead trees.

I know you're aware of all this technology, but there are lurkers out there that still think we're out there spraying arsenic all over everything.

Dang - now you've got me yapping like Wouter. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


Jay

Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: waterbug_wpb] #101631
03/28/07 06:21 PM
03/28/07 06:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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What were we talking about again?? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Blade F16
#777
Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: waterbug_wpb] #101632
03/28/07 06:45 PM
03/28/07 06:45 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
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“an island in the Pacific....
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Dang - now you've got me yapping like Wouter. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

The Yapping Dog.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_Zz1gITnVJQ


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: waterbug_wpb] #101633
03/28/07 07:11 PM
03/28/07 07:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
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fin. Offline OP
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Quote
Not to start a fight, as you do have valid points, but many moons ago I WAS a citrus "dirt" farmer in overseeing 2500 acres.

A few points for those who have never spent time sweating in the fields:

Yes, it is beach sand that the crops grow in. Smart growers take advantage of this situation because hydroponic growing is the most efficient means of production. "Gentleman" farmers just throw a lot of money at a grove and over spray, fertilize, water, etc. Basically wasting money and messing up their grove.

Putting the nutrients exactly in the root zone of the tree maximizes uptake, minimizes weeds, and allows the grower (to some extent) to control the maturation of the crop (bloom, size, coloring, etc.) Also allows grower to tailor the carbohydrate cycle of the tree.

Crap, even the sprayers are computerized and turn off the spray between trees (and cut the rate for shorter trees), saving tons of spray material. Spray materials have improved to reduce side effects on environment, allowing greater pest control using beneficial insects, plants, and fungi. We had the most cost effective pest control program in place using only spray (light vegetable) oil, copper and sulfur. No need to use weird chemicals because we stayed tight on our scouting, pruning, and water/nutrient management.

Trees have microjet irrigation under them that put water only in the root zone. Fertigation through the micro jets allows for exact placement of nutrients.

You can't control the weather and yes, sometimes periods of heavy rains do move fertilizer out of the root zone.

Each tree is now located using GPS, and their overall condition is graded by satellite (helps in crop estimates), but there is still no better method of increasing production than footprints in the grove.

Most groves in the flats now have their own water retention facilities (usually about 10% of the total acreage is water retention) so that they basically supply (and recycle) their own water. Yes, the diesel pumps run (could be converted to biodiesel), but only because you can't use electric pumps - they shut off power to growers during freeze events because homeowners want to be toasty. No power during freeze means no freeze protection = dead trees.

I know you're aware of all this technology, but there are lurkers out there that still think we're out there spraying arsenic all over everything.

Dang - now you've got me yapping like Wouter. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


Temek.

You got out why? And, what did the bank say.

Florida Citrus- 19th century mentality for a 21st century world.

Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: fin.] #101634
03/29/07 08:13 AM
03/29/07 08:13 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Not an owner - just the bloke on the field every day.

Now most of it is a golf course and Condos. Which is more environmentally friendly?

And yes, I'll give you Temek - for now. The VOC from Guava or some beneficial will most likely replace part of that. It's all cyclical. Get a handle on one thing, and another pops up: Melanose, scab, fruit fly, diaprepes, canker, greening.

Only disease I haven't figured out how to manage was condo development. Kills the trees with no hope of replanting.

I would be interested in your opinion of alternatives, as I plan to be a landowner at some point in the not-too-distant future.

I just don't see wind as the most cost-effective in FL. The last week notwithstanding, winds are usually light (very light in the interior portions). Solar? Maybe, but plants are the ultimate solar collector, pull CO2 out of the atmosphere, and you can use them for food/energy if need be.


Jay

Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: waterbug_wpb] #101635
03/29/07 10:18 AM
03/29/07 10:18 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
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fin. Offline OP
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I had a reply that has vanished into the ether!?

I'm not suggesting we should do away with agriculture. I am suggesting there are things that can be done in addition to traditional crops that would be profitable.

I've often wondered if an espaliered U-pick field would be profitable. If so, why not an entire grove?

Last edited by Tikipete; 03/29/07 10:22 AM.
Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: fin.] #101636
03/29/07 10:26 AM
03/29/07 10:26 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Quote

I'm not suggesting we should do away with agriculture. I am suggesting there are things that can be done in addition to traditional crops that would be profitable.


I would agree to a point on this. If you start putting too many things out there, then you lose the ability to become really efficient at any one aspect, and the total "system" efficiency drops.

However, finding productive uses of otherwise inefficient or underproductive space, materials, etc. is always a good idea.... This must have been your original point (before I sidetracked this whole discussion!) to which I agree...


Jay

Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: waterbug_wpb] #101637
03/29/07 10:34 AM
03/29/07 10:34 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
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fin. Offline OP
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. . . If you start putting too many things out there, then you lose the ability to become really efficient at any one aspect, and the total "system" efficiency drops....


Yup. My original thought was to charter an entirely new utility through the State.

If you have some fallow acreage, or the roof of a strip mall, you might want to form a joint venture with a specialized contractor.

The underlying strategy is to provide competition for traditional energy producers who don't wish to pursue wind and solar production.

The business model I envision is similar to modern plumbers and electricians, many of whom are sole proprietors with few, if any employees. As an example, lets suppose that high tension line from Turkey Point crosses your ranch; I might lease a 50' easement 100 yards long ( or any other dimension) and erect an energy farm which would plug into the grid. Same thing for the roof of a strip mall.

Last edited by Tikipete; 03/29/07 10:42 AM.
Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: fin.] #101638
03/29/07 10:42 AM
03/29/07 10:42 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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The utility companies don't want to pursue it because there is no money in it. After you buy the solar panels or wind generator, they can't raise their prices on you every time there's a storm or the price of oil goes up.

Last year my electric company (Progress Energy) raised my rates nearly 50%!! (from the previous high of $500/mo. in July to the new high of $750/mo. in July) When I called to ask WTF?? they said, "Well, we had those hurricanes so we had to replace a lot of poles and wire, then the price of oil went from $20/bbl. to $68/bbl. so your fuel surcharge went up too."

Yeah, it went WAY up! 50%!! So you see, they have no interest in allowing you a system that is going to harvest FREE electricity from the sun or wind. And the Utility companies have a very strong (highly financed) lobby group. That is just one more reason you won't see any legislation to promote alternative energy.

Now that we have beaten that horse to a pulp, can we move on to a less controversial subject, like Religion?? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


Blade F16
#777
Re: politics, petroleum and climate [Re: Timbo] #101639
03/29/07 10:44 AM
03/29/07 10:44 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
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fin. Offline OP
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Well, actually, I was raised a Baptist. How 'bout you?

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