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Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Buccaneer] #102204
04/01/07 08:38 PM
04/01/07 08:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Someone told me the Nacra F17 is actually 18 feet long, is that true? That might explain some of the extra weight. And I also heard you could put a jib on it and second trap. Now, other than the weight issue, how do you think it might do, two up, against the F18's? Could there be a two up F17 class? That would be nearly 80 lbs lighter than an F18.


Blade F16
#777
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Timbo] #102205
04/01/07 09:43 PM
04/01/07 09:43 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 606
League City, TX
flumpmaster Offline
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Someone told me the Nacra F17 is actually 18 feet long, is that true? That might explain some of the extra weight. And I also heard you could put a jib on it and second trap. Now, other than the weight issue, how do you think it might do, two up, against the F18's? Could there be a two up F17 class? That would be nearly 80 lbs lighter than an F18.


Having sailed against a couple or F17s in the Sloop/SPI/2 Trap configuration I can confirm that it comes no where close to an F18 in performance on any point of sail.

The F17 seems to perform nicely when SPI/cat rigged and single handed.


Dave Ingram is my president. tcdyc rules
Re: Whats up with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102206
04/01/07 09:57 PM
04/01/07 09:57 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 606
League City, TX
flumpmaster Offline
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Maybe this will stir things up, and I am sure it has been conquered before BUT why didn't the HT take off?


Why did it not take off in the US?

  • Hobie and Nacra went after F18 instead - so no big established brand and dealer network
  • Cat rig is less flexible than a sloop rig (think distance racing)
  • Hull shape and rear beam freeboard make the boat less forgiving and enjoyable in rough stuff than the F18 and N20 designs
  • Boat becomes a handful in big wind vs F18/N20 (tall stick, big sail, narrow beam, limited forward hull volume) - making it less attractive to ocean distance racers.

As already mentioned, great boats on a lake in the right wind conditions.

Chris.


Dave Ingram is my president. tcdyc rules
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Timbo] #102207
04/02/07 04:19 AM
04/02/07 04:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Nacra 17's are all 5.24 mtr long and so 17 feet.

The extra hull length would only explain about 3 to 5 kg extra in overall weight if the bridles are moved forward as well (higher loading requiring more reinforcements in the hull at the beam).

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102208
04/02/07 10:02 AM
04/02/07 10:02 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
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Don't you think that you would be more likely to go sailing (recreational, training, afternoon with a couple hours to burn and the wind is nice) if you didn't have to deal with a 400lb boat? Might keep more consistent crew too if they didn't have to deal with a heavy boat all the time too.


Yes, most definitely.

Even though scientifically proven to be flatter than a pancake, Kansas has hills, mostly at lakes (go figure). It's been like pulling teeth trying to convince the mono boys at our developing sailing center that beach cats need a nice gentle (5%) grade to cat trax from the lot to the shore and no they're not easy to crane launch.

"We" will continue to race our 400 and 320 pound boats because that is the only racing here. But, in answer to your question, even with a 5% grade "I" can't take the 320 lb. boat to the water by myself. No brainer, hell yes I would sail more if we didn't own heavy boats. Not sure an A Class is the right boat for borderline tornado winds we have here, but a 240 pound boat is in our/my future sights.
(humph...I did'nt mention any manufacturers)


John H16, H14
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: _flatlander_] #102209
04/03/07 06:13 PM
04/03/07 06:13 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 115
H
HobieZealot Offline
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Question: Whats up with 400 pound boats?

Answer: see $ 26,000 A Cat

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: HobieZealot] #102210
04/03/07 08:05 PM
04/03/07 08:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
now that's about the funniest thing I've ever heard you say.


Jake Kohl
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Bob_Curry] #102211
04/04/07 10:18 AM
04/04/07 10:18 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 395
LA
Acat230 Offline
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My Nacra F17 weighs in around 320lbs. Pretty heavy for a singlehander. But, it is bulletproof . If you go lighter, you can't touch the beach, sit on it, or survive a collision on the water. That's just the way it is in the F17 class. Heavier is easier to manufacture. Lighter also means tighter tolerances, exotic materials, and higher costs; A cats. So, it's not a bad thing if it's affordable. Back in the day when the Nacra 6.0 and Hobie 20 were the thing, we couldn't complain because of class rules and factories dictating the weight of the boats. We all sailed the same thing and that was the pure fun of it! Yes, F18 could be lighter but their class rules dictate a high weight. No big deal. Why don't you buy a F18 and sail in one of the largest growing classes in NA? Or, just get into the largest growing class at this time: "A".

Enjoy!

Bob <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Ok Bob, I'll agree with you on a couple of items but dispute you on some others.

1. I can sit on my A2 just fine. No worries.
2. I never sail any boat I own on to the beach. I always stop and get the wheels under the hulls. More seamanlike in my opinion especially if you value the finish along your hulls.
3. Collisions between 400 lb boats are just as bad as collisions between 165 lb boats. Think momentum and inertia. Much more in the heavier boats.
4. My back hurts a lot less than yours, I can get on the water much quicker, and I get around the course in about the same time as you and work a lot less.

When I bought my first P-19, I was shocked at the nationals to see not one boat weigh in even close to the class minimum weight of 385 lbs. Every boat was consistently 10-20 lbs overweight. Whether that is the case with F-18, I don't know but I would bet you found the same thing with all of the Nacras and Miracle 20's. The manufacturers did not (or do not) have tight tolerances for resin/laminate layups and you see these big variances. Being that over minimum weight is not tolerable in a lot of dinghy/keelboat classes (Snipes, Lasers, Thistles, Stars, etc) and certainly not in the A-Class.

Regarding the 18HT, I agree with Bill Vining that there is no sweeter boat in 8-15 knots of wind. It's a handful in stronger breezes but the design changes Peter Johnstone did on the Gunboat HT made the boat manageable up to 20 knots and a lot of what Peter did has been put into production on the 18HT's in Europe. In over 20 knots, the dynamics of a 34' tall rig on an 18' hull are undeniable (so I'd personally rather go windsurfing). WF and I pushed one platform for two years quite hard in a lot or racing. We broke one rudder, one daggerboard, and one rudder pintle (which when it failed crushed some of the laminate in the transom so it was a two hour rather than a one hour repair). I never saw a mast failure or problem on the Jav 2 and I credit Riba for building the best carbon mast you can buy. I agree that the class was doomed not to grow in the US because of the limitation of not having a builder or more established dealer infrastrucutre. I also think the boat got a lot of false and unfair perceptions based upon "he said/she said" gossip. I would not have wanted to sail the boat in the Worrell. That was not what it was designed for.

Bob Hodges
former F-18HT NAC
A-Class USA 230

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Acat230] #102212
04/04/07 12:02 PM
04/04/07 12:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 548
MERRITTISLAND, FL
Matt M Offline
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MERRITTISLAND, FL
It all depends on what you want you sailing experience to be.

If you race then you are going to want to be on the boat that is being raced in your area. If it is portsmouth, then sail what fits you. Cost is relative: if you only paid $500 for a boat, but never use it, then it was too much.

If you want or need "bullet proof" then do not get into racing catamarans. A colission is going to do damage. If you want to drag a boat over rocks and sand, you will damage the bottom of any flat bottom design, 400 lbs or not.

All boats also have limitations. If it is blowing 35+ there is no cat I would rather be out on than a H16. They are not nearly as much fun in lighter winds though. My F16 has less upwind sail than the H16 but is high aspect. has a spin and a lightweight platform. This makes it a blast to sail in pretty much all conditions until the dog goes blowing by. Sailing the 20's and 18s is fun, but a lot more work and the feel is not there. They are not appreciably faster and much less responsive. Would I want to do a Tybee on the 16 or the 20....20 hands down, but to go out and sail for an afternoon, or run around the buoys, the 16 is a lot more fun.

The other boat that keeps getting bashed is the A. I like to sail with crew. That is my only complaint about the A. There is no boat that teaches you sail like the A cat. Every adjustment crew motion etc. provides instant feedback because the boat is so light and responsive. 1 sail and light weight, it is easier to get on the water than a Wave. It is a minimalist boat with flat hull bottoms that is relatively expensive, of course you are going to try and treat it with care.

Light weight increases the cost to build but definitely improves the sailing experience. What value that has is entirely up to you.

Matt

F16-USA725
A - USA236

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: HobieZealot] #102213
04/04/07 01:36 PM
04/04/07 01:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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North-West Europe

Don't let anybody convince you that the choice is limited to only two alternatives !

Question: Whats up with 400 pound boats and $ 26,000 A Cats ?

How about a 240 lbs / $ 14.000 screamer ? Lightweight like an A, robust like a 400 lbs F18 and verociously snatching at the heels of both on the water !

Formula 16 is the young punk on the block and the old geezers better start paying attention !

YEAAHHH ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Wouter] #102214
04/04/07 02:08 PM
04/04/07 02:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Charleston, SC
NCSUtrey Offline
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Charleston, SC
Wouter, I didn't know you were a big proponent of the F16...when did this change come about?


Trey
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: NCSUtrey] #102215
04/04/07 05:14 PM
04/04/07 05:14 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 87
Trondheim, Norway
J
jimi Offline
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Trondheim, Norway
The true exception is the Taipan 5.7. 5.7 meters long, 2.60 wide and 142 kgs weight fully rigged. No use of "exspensive" materials besides the kevlar reinforcement in the hulls. These specs should be the bench mark for new cat designs. AHPC designed the Taipan 5.7 in 1995, and the boat is still at the cutting edge design wise. Give it a carbon mast, a new mainsail and self-tacker and you have a boat that will match and probably out-sail most of the post 2002 cat-models, even your beloved F16 Wouter! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: jimi] #102216
04/04/07 05:54 PM
04/04/07 05:54 PM
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HobieZealot Offline
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If the F16 ever starts to take off and good sailors start to get competitive on the boats the cost will skyrocket just like in the A class. It's a development class and that is the way it goes. People started to see that potential for high cost with the 18HT and that pushed many towards the F18 in my opinion. The F18 has much tighter rules that aim at keeping costs down. If the F18 isn't cheap enough for you the racing in the H16 is just as competitive, if not more so.

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: jimi] #102217
04/05/07 05:33 AM
04/05/07 05:33 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,479
Thailand
Buccaneer Offline
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The true exception is the Taipan 5.7. 5.7 meters long, 2.60 wide and 142 kgs weight fully rigged. No use of "exspensive" materials besides the kevlar reinforcement in the hulls. These specs should be the bench mark for new cat designs. AHPC designed the Taipan 5.7 in 1995, and the boat is still at the cutting edge design wise. Give it a carbon mast, a new mainsail and self-tacker and you have a boat that will match and probably out-sail most of the post 2002 cat-models, even your beloved F16 Wouter! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


ahead of their time... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." Ben Bernanke 2005
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: jimi] #102218
04/05/07 10:51 AM
04/05/07 10:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

Give it a carbon mast, a new mainsail and self-tacker and you have a boat that will match and probably out-sail most of the post 2002 cat-models, even your beloved F16 Wouter!



Absolutely no doubt about that.

Actually such a platform has already been build and sailed. It is the Supertaipan by Macca and its is quick.

Back in the day I actually pushed for such a changes to the Taipan 5.7's as I excepted them to go extinct otherwise. So you will get no counterargument from me on these points.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: HobieZealot] #102219
04/05/07 11:08 AM
04/05/07 11:08 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Quote

If the F16 ever starts to take off and good sailors start to get competitive on the boats the cost will skyrocket just like in the A class. It's a development class and that is the way it goes.



I think we have already seen some of that in the F16 class. Prices have gone up on the new boats.

But I don't think the prices will sky-rocket. There is not enough expensive stuff in the F16 designs yet. Also the class rules are halveway between F18 and A-cats so that should dampen the price increases significantly as well.

As of yet it is perfectly possible to build and offer a 26.000 F16, it was always that way. But the class rules are still such that you can well be out classed on the water by a 15.000 F16 and that gives a permanent down pressure on the retail prices. None of the builders want to expose themselfs to another builder, producing a boat that is just as capable but much cheaper. Actually this contributed to the Taipan 4.9 being discontinued, it was significantly more expensive then the newly designed F16's and not better in performance.

The A-cats are unlucky in my opinion because these designs are very much depended on materials and a way of doing things that has become very expensive. Sadly for them there is no easy solution to this problem. And honestly I don't rejoice in that. There is a reason the F16 class rules decided on 240 lbs as minimum weight as that would still allow inexpensive materials to be used in an otherwise competitive boat. Several other rules were made partly with that issue in mind.

While we will see development in the F16 class and as a result see more expensive boats being offered, we'll not see skyrocketing prices as the F16 class is not an all-out development class like the A's. Of course as a payback the F16's will have to accept some drawbacks but in my experience the customers don't really value these drawback as significant. Some do, but just as many others don't. And so there is ample client base for both types, and many of thge other cat types out there.

Fair winds to you all,

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Wouter] #102220
04/05/07 10:49 PM
04/05/07 10:49 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 805
Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
dacarls Offline
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Better buy a boat now: Uncontrolled inflation in the USA is just now underway- and will continue on a massive scale.
The competition for modern materials like carbon fiber for aircraft, boats, cars- and maybe a lot else- is an indicator. Also chemical ingredients for plastic resins are climbing dramatically. Fuel to get to regattas? HAHAhahaha!
I just retired, and have seen US Dollar costs of nearly everything go up by 10X, or if you will, the present dollar is worth 10 cents of what it was in 1957 when I started working.
It ain't stopping since this inflation is all now programmed into present government/business systems. Think about how to survive in this system, and consider yourself lucky to even HAVE a boat. Sorry about the downer.....


Dacarls:
A-class USA 196, USA 21, H18, H16
"Nothing that's any good works by itself. You got to make the damn thing work"- Thomas Edison
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: dacarls] #102221
04/06/07 01:07 AM
04/06/07 01:07 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 917
Issaquah, WA, USA
H17cat Offline
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Issaquah, WA, USA
Dave, that is why I still sail the 1986 Hobie 17 I bought in 1987. BTW it is only 340 Lbs. Retired 6 years ago. Enjoy competitive sailing at minimum costs.

Caleb Tarleton H-17 6446

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: dacarls] #102222
04/06/07 06:50 AM
04/06/07 06:50 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 395
LA
Acat230 Offline
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Acat230  Offline
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LA
Quote
Better buy a boat now: Uncontrolled inflation in the USA is just now underway- and will continue on a massive scale.
The competition for modern materials like carbon fiber for aircraft, boats, cars- and maybe a lot else- is an indicator. Also chemical ingredients for plastic resins are climbing dramatically. Fuel to get to regattas? HAHAhahaha!
I just retired, and have seen US Dollar costs of nearly everything go up by 10X, or if you will, the present dollar is worth 10 cents of what it was in 1957 when I started working.
It ain't stopping since this inflation is all now programmed into present government/business systems. Think about how to survive in this system, and consider yourself lucky to even HAVE a boat. Sorry about the downer.....


And if you think our country is bad, just check out the costs and/or standard of living in other countries. Think I'll stay in the good ole USA even with all of our "problems".

Dave, hope to see you next week at our regatta on Lake Pontchartrain. You and Chris are all lined up with housing to keep those dollars in your pocket.

God Bless America.

Bob Hodges

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: dacarls] #102223
04/06/07 05:50 PM
04/06/07 05:50 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
hobie1616 Offline
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“an island in the Pacific....
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The competition for modern materials like carbon fiber for aircraft, boats, cars- and maybe a lot else- is an indicator. Also chemical ingredients for plastic resins are climbing dramatically.

If true, why is my Hexcel stock is still in the toilet? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


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