My Taipan 4.9 is 15 years old, been bashed and crashed and treated like death by two teenagers for several years and is still strong and going.... 105 kg, fully 100lb lighter to push around the beach than the 17. I sail solo a lot and its weight was a BIG factor in selection.
Materials and bulid quality are what create strong boats and it is to be remembered the lighter the boat the less damage it can do itself when mistakes are made.
There is no reason to stay with heavy boats other than bad decisions early on in the structure of F18.
F18s are fully ten years behind the times re weight and next year that will be 11 and the year after that 12...you get what I am saying.
light is right.

I personaly would not beach a 4.9 but I woudl not put an F18 through it also..... Not healthy for any boat.

Taipans were built at a very high quality compared to other cats (including Blade) with a lot of attention to detail. This comes at a price and thus you will probably find that the profit on each Taipan was no where near as high as other manufactures products. The boat was built in very small numbers and due to a number of factors including very little marketing outside OZ, a small Oz market, the price and comitment to manufacture the boat at such a high quality, I think you will find it will eventually suffer the same fate as the 5.7.

If the class takes off, more manufactures get involved and the quality of competition increases, then the development of hull shapes, sails and rigs will move ahead in leaps and bounds...... WHich costs $$$$ and will be past onto the consumer.

As for the price of the A Class......

AHPC was selling Auscat Flyers for the same price as the Capricorn $24,980 (Australian) for a basic boat ready to sail only... No rollers, trailer, covers ect.

There is a LOT more hardware on an F18 than an A Class. Now Gashby is producing the Geltech Flyer and I have heard the price is up to $30,000 ????? I am not sure if AHPC still produce the Auscat Flyer.

Now imagine the price of a 2 man 18 footer that is comparable to the A Class in construction. What would the price be????? $40,000 AUS ?????

A Class (Auscat Flyer)
Bare boat - $24,880
With most accesories w/o trailer- $29,306

F18 Capricorn
Bare boat - $25,980
With most accesories w/o trailer- $28,759

Taipan 4.9
Bare boat - $20,648
With most accesories w/o trailer - $24,044
With spinnaker kit - $26,067
Self tacking jib kit - ????

I would and I'm actually going to do just that for the 4th season in a row. As of yet I haven't had to put a new layer of glass and resin on my keels.

I sail singlehanded halve the time and I simply have no choice, I can't stop in the middle of the surf and have my boat floating around while I go get the cat tracks. I'm not running it onto the beach at full speed however and I get of quickly. The other F16's (Blades) at my club do the same.

We really have to stop perpetuating this nonsense. Beaching these boats is NOT an issue, unless you are doing it on the rocks or whatever.




Personally I think over 320 boats build is a respectable number for a design that basically was confined to the Australian market. But indeed appreciation of this may differ.




It already is going that way although the decision to go with the times and modernize the Taipan will give it a new lease on life. If the class doesn't continue with this modernizing beyond the mainsail then this lease will only be relatively short lived. Afterall the Taipan 4.9 is no longer produced by AHPC and will be replaced by a new 16 foot design.





In all honesty, we are already on this path really seriously for about 2 years. Of course we had carbon masts in the class from the very beginning and the same can be said for squaretops and such. Both the Stealth and Blade designs have seen several construction improvements over the last years. Stiffness for the Stealth was always high and the Blade has increased platform stiffness by a factor of 3 since the first prototype. Landenberger, Glaser, Goodall Ullman and Ashby are continiously refining the sail designs. Both the Stealth and Blade design have gotten new daggerboard and rudder designs, where the use of carbon has become standard. I don't know anybody in the last 3 years who has ordered dacron sails. Stealth has gotten a new bow section 3 years ago and the Blade hull was refined last year with new improved beam landings and stiffening devices inside the hull. New beams were incorporated. And so on ....

Still, despite these developments I can order a fully rigged and locally delivered new Blade F16 today for 14.165 Euro (incl EU taxes etc) and a new carbon masted Stealth F16 for 14.084 Euro (incl EU taxes etc). A carbon mast upgrade to the Blade costs about 1500 Euro's extra. (tot = 15.665 Euro delivered, fully fitted incl. EU taxes). These quoted were checked out yesterday.

By comparison in the EU the SL16 is roughly 12.500 - 13.500 (although it quotes do vary ALOT), the FX-one is about 14.500 when fully fitted, the A-cats are between 16.000 and 20.000 Euros and F18's go between 16.500 - 20.000 when race ready. The Hobie 16 price is a well guarded secret (why ?) but when I got my hands on a full price listing in summer 2005 the Hobie 16 le race was 13.500 Euro's (incl taxes but WITHOUT things like a spinnaker, pentex sails and full harken fit-out).

I, for one am pleasantly surprised how the F16 retail prices has stayed as low as they are despite the developments and the upper level quality of the components that they're are fitted with. The 2007 formula 16 boats are easily worth 15.000 Euro's and more. Afterall, what do the F18's got that the F16 don't ? ... ohhh of course, I forgot, 70 kgs (155 lbs) and a 1500 Euro higher retail price. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But seriously, So much room for new development is no longer left in the F16 class. The big hits have already been made (like carbon masts, kevlar hulls, etc).

I fully expect the F16 retail prices to rise, again these 2007 boats are easily worth 15.000 or more. At some point the dealors will want to see a larger return of investment. If I had the money then I would order a new F16 right now, while the retail prices are so low. I mean, 14.085 or 15.665 Euro's for a carbon masted F16 with the newest rigging and daggerboard/rudder design ? Tough choice !

No way a standard Taipan 4.9 can beat that, even with the new mainsail design they have voted in for 2009. This boat (with spinnaker added) was already 16.000 euro in 2005 and it still lacks the upgrades like a new daggerboards and carbon mast.

Surprisingly enough the F16's despite the developments, additions and improvements in speed are actually CHEAPER to purchase then the standard Taipan 4.9 was.

Maybe in the future somebody will make a "Gunboat" version of some F16, costing 20.000 Euro's or more but it won't be significantly better then a 14.000 Euro production F16. Simply put, where would the improvement come from ?

For the other area's in the world, like USA and Aus, the quoted prices for all the named boats will differ but relatively speaking the same situations holds. The only real exception is the Hobie 16 which for some reason is much cheaper in the USA then on other continents.

End of my rant,

Wouter

Stephen,

The Taipan 4.9 is no longer produced.

But indeed the Taipan 4.9 upgraded to an F16 was always an expensive offer.

AHPC's replacement of the Taipan is the Viper F16 and it is projected at 19.500 Aus when fully fitted with everything that a F16 sailor would want. Spinnaker, selftacker, pentex etc.

Blade F16 (Australian produced) is going for the same retail price when equally fitted out.

Tailers are not included in this.

(now I'm going off and try to do some landyachting !)

Wouter

I have not been following the 4.9s closely, however have heard that there is a shipment of 4.9 hulls arriving in Oz soon for fitout..... Indicating the hulls are now built off shore probably along side the Capricorns.

I think the hulls referred to are these :

http://www.catsailor.com/bb_files/103936-AHPC_Viper_F16_artist_impression_medium.jpg

Greg send me this drawing as he did with several other 16 foot enthousiasts. As far as I was told , the Taipan moulds are still in Australia and in the possession of Jim Boyer who has sold off his tooling and ended his company Boyer Fibrecraft. AHPC continues as a company with the Capricorn and the Tool A-cat as well their new 16 footer, but she has no access to the Taipan moulds. The new 16 footer is expected to be launched this summer at the F16 zandvoor event. And indeed it is being build off-shore, but not at the same place/company as the capricorn.

AHPC will continue to support the Taipan sailors with parts and sails of course. In his announcement on the Taipan forum Jim himself mentioned that with sufficient customers a batch of new taipans could be build if this group of buyers would find a skilled builder to take on the task. In effect he would lend out the moulds and probably advice on the production. But personally I don't fancy the chances of this happening. Afterall the Taipan was never cheap and one-off batch production will only add costs.

Again, I have clearance from Greg to say in public that the new 16 footer by AHPC, the Viper F16, is aimed at retailling for 14.250 euro In Europe and 19.500 AUD in Australia. The US price will be accordingly. Naturally this is the fully-fitted-ready-to-sail price.


Wouter

(darn ! landyachting not working out for me today)

There is at least 1 boat builder looking into building 4.9's for small production runs in Australia. No final decision has been made yet though. AHPC are capable of getting batches of hulls built off shore as of now if there is demand.

Tiger Mike

You have got to be the biggest loser on this forum since the old forum dayz! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

If the Taipan hulls aren’t available then is it not possible to fit one out with a new set of Blade hulls? How much for a set of hulls for the blade anyway? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

answer.. switch to an 18teen foot skiff... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

what a lot of bull pats!

The F16 can easily be home built well under weight. Well under cost of a dinasaur..

I race a F16 homebuilt that is exciting and enjoyable in the 20+ kiot winds we get here..
My son is starting to race with me and its only the "wow" factor that keep him going.. Frankly if I had to choose a F18 or H16 we would go back to a skiff to get that "wow" factor...

Actually till the last few years there werent any builders in USA who had the skill set to build a HT..

one is by an Aussie designer.. (Who is steeped in tortured ply lightweight platforms)
the other isnt!

notice hulls are kevlar!..
beams and mast carbon..

Now why cant Hobie with its bulk ordering do this at a cheaper price?
Because they dont want to?
Becaue they cant?
They know hobie buyers wouldnt understand?

I think that the cost has a lot to do with small run, mold costs and design costs.. Not the materials.. No excuse for Hobie though with its marketing machine and production facilities

The last I heard, Hobie makes quite a bit more money selling it's kyacks than cats. Maybe they just are not interested in developing -cutting edge- racing cats. The few they would sell would not cover the cost of the R+D, production, etc.
I was surprized when Performance (Nacra/Inter) decided to build the A cats and now the SL 16. Happy, but surprized.

Performance Catamaran does not build A-Cats. They assemble the parts and market/sell the final product. The manufacturers of the A3 components are as follows:

Hulls and foils - Morelli and Melvin
Beams - NZ subcontractor (managed by Morelli and Melvin)
Mast - Hall
Boom - Peformance Catamaran (spec'd by Morelli and Melvin)
Trampoline - Glaser
Sail (if purchased) - Glaser
Standing rigging - Proctor Spars (California)
Running rigging - Performance Catamaran

Everyone should understand that A-Cats (and in general hi-tech state of the art catamarans) are not good profit making undertakings. Pete Melvin justifies the A3 part of his business because he has a passion for the boat and because his company learns a lot about design and construction that can be applied to his general business. The partnership with Performance Catamaran is to provide an existing infrastructure to market and distribute the boat and still make a profit for both parties.

There have been some issues with the boat and speaking as an owner of an A2, we make Pete aware of these issues. Some are related to design and construction. Pete and Gino Morelli have been very proactive addressing these issues. Some issues are related to quality control and that is a tougher challenge because it is related to maintaining the proper skill level required to build and assemble the boats. This is an ongoing issue that Pete is addressing and we all hope he can continue to work with Performance Catamaran to produce a boat that potential and current A-Class sailors will support.

Bob Hodges

I do not know if Wouter purposely omitted to mention the prices of BIMARE boats (they can be easily found on the Web)or if he simply forgot that the Italian boatyard is building an excellent, although not class legal F16, together with a competitive A class.
Anyway these are the retail quotations in the EU (VAT included):
Javelin 16 - carbon mast - hooter EUR 10.450 (some EUR 4.000 less than its closest concurrent);
XJ A cat EUR 14.810;
X-4 F18 - in full racing trim - EUR 14.905

NO FURTHER COMMENT!

Well, I'm not out to "get" Bimare and it was not a concious decision on my part to "exclude" them.

But indeed the Bimare Javelin 16 is on the backburning in my mind. Pretty much because I don't know of any agent/dealer that handles these boats. As far as I know a customer has to pick up the boat himself at the factory in Italy, of course this is also reflected in the quoted price. Shipping boats does add costs and sometimes alot of costs. I know of no-one who has bought this Jav 16. This is not to say that they are not sold, only that from my perspective the jav 16 activity is absent.

Also, I personally don't know of any organisation that imports these boats to other area's outside of Europe.

As you say the javelin 16 is not F16 class legal and without having its own class structure the Jav. 16 is basically an unsupported boat. It doesn't even have a rating number in any of the major handicap system. There are tens of other designs that are in a similar situation but it serves no purpose to name all these in threads like this.

For very much similar reasons I'm also not quoting other designs like the mosquito, cheshire cat, isotope or the unicorn. They do exist and people sail them but they are too small as an individual class and without an active international scene to warrant being included in this particular discussions. At least that is my opinion.

It is just not practical to name all designs out there, so I choose to concentrate on the most likely candidates.

But having said all this I also admit that I'm doing promo work for the F16 class and not for some unrelated class. If that class wants to be noticed then they themselfs need to do "the work". That is how the game is played.

Wouter